51. Exploring Embodiment: It Goes Beyond Just Body Image with Hannah Silva-Breen

In this episode of Sturdy Girl, Jess sits down with Hannah Silva Breen, an expert in all things mental performance and sports psychology. They talk about how crucial it is to develop the mental side of athletic performance, comparing it to having a coach for your brain. Hannah shares her own story, from basketball dreams and setbacks to becoming a champion for better body image and mental health awareness.

But it’s not just about sports! Hannah introduces us to the concept of embodiment, which shifts the focus from what we see to how we feel inside. It's about being present in our bodies and using that awareness to empower ourselves. Together, they explore why self-compassion is key, especially on those tough body image days.

Throughout their chat, Jess and Hannah remind us that it's okay to have ups and downs. By embracing the impermanent nature of emotions and practicing self-compassion, we can all nurture a healthier relationship with our bodies and minds. Whether you're an athlete or just trying to feel a bit more at home in your own skin, this episode is packed with relatable insights.

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• Full Transcript

  [00:00:00] 

  Jess: Hello friends and welcome to another interview episode of sturdy girl. I have Hannah on today and I want to give you a little bit of info about her before we get started. She's a current graduate student working towards her PhD in sports exercise and performance psychology and a master's in clinical mental health counseling.

  She holds a master's in kinesiology. with an emphasis in sports psychology and is working towards her certification in mental performance consulting. Ooh, I want to know what that means. In a minute. Her [00:00:30] research areas include body image, disordered eating, weight bias, and gender equity in sport. She has practical experience working in a residential eating disorder treatment facility, and that's where the work there that really lit her fire in this area and inspired her to continue researching topics in grad school.

  After grad school, she hopes to continue conducting research and speaking on body image and weight stigma in sport and counseling athletes and coaches in all areas of life. Hannah, welcome to Sturdy Girl. All [00:01:00] of these things are right up our alley. Thanks for joining us.

  Hannah: Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be here.

  Jess: I feel like I just learned so much about you reading your bio.

  Hannah: Well, that is, the goal, right?

  Jess: Yeah, a a little bit of tidbit. Okay. First of all talk to me about like mental performance consulting. Like what does that mean? What does that look like?

  Hannah: it's basically the role that I'm in working with teams and individual athletes on the mental side of their game. So that can look like [00:01:30] focus, confidence goal setting, team dynamics. Relationships with coaches and even things like mental rehearsal through imagery and things like that.

  it's really supporting the mental side, whereas athletes get a lot of support on the physical side. we kind of describe it as we can either be your strength and conditioning coach or your physical therapist. Right. So like something's wrong and we can help you figure it out and quote unquote, fix it in that [00:02:00] sense, or maybe things are going really well, but you want to strengthen different areas.

  And then we can help you build on that side. So it can look different for each athlete, each team, but in general, just strengthening or. Bringing back to baseline the mental side of sport.

  Jess: That's really awesome. Just thinking about how you're bringing to the forefront the importance of the mental side of things, because my own perception, I have no basis in this, but I feel like it's a fairly [00:02:30] new focus to really lean into how much the mental game has to do with how we physically perform,

  Hannah: Yes.

  Jess: seeing that come forward a lot more.

  Hannah: Yeah. sports psychology as a field has only been around since officially the 1970s if I remember my history correctly. So it's really new compared to like the general psych field or sport in and. You know, there's still stigma [00:03:00] around it. There's a lot of people fighting against that stigma and there's still athletes.

  out in the world who disagree with a lot of the work that we have of kind of like, well, you should just be able to turn it all off and perform or anything like that. And luckily we are seeing shift towards, the mental side is important. not only important, but necessary to support. So that's really encouraging to see both at, from the professional level, college level, and even down to the [00:03:30] high school and youth level now.

  It's really cool. Yeah.

  Jess: about how you got down this path. I'm just curious like for our listeners just to hear about how the heck this, this ended up being your, path and how much you have managed to combine interests into something so awesome.

  Hannah: Well, it hasn't been a straight path, a very clear path. That's for sure. and I think, you know, for anyone listening that would be, Kind of the biggest thing [00:04:00] of it's okay. If you don't know what you want to do right away, or if barriers get in your way to kind of keep finding that path and coming back to it.

  so I, I played sports as a kid and I focused on basketball in my high school career. And I was average, I would say. I was hoping to become better and get better, but um, an injury prevented that from happening at a really poor time. And that's when I really struggled [00:04:30] with my mental health and just the mental side of like resilience, confidence in general, and returning to sport.

  Cause I did eventually return. I was lucky enough to have a family that supported me and I got into therapy and got mental health support. However, that sport specific kind of context was not addressed as well as I would like to hope. and so that really piqued my interest and got me looking into this idea of sports [00:05:00] psychology.

   To see if it was a thing and it was a thing, but back when I was in high school, like nobody had that as a major and I was about to go to college. So I went to college and kind of lost my path a little bit because everyone was talking about. Money and success and what's going to get you the best paying job.

  So I actually fully switched gears and started as a math major. I don't really know why I was convinced math was going to be my ticket to a [00:05:30] well paying job. hated it and then decided to come back to this idea of what sparked my interest in the first place, which was sports psychology and. My school didn't have it.

  So I did psych and exercise physiology and that I was able to kind of blend the two fairly well. But then I had a lot of really cool Experiences and research and in school and all of a sudden my mind, because I was 20 years old, not really knowing what I was [00:06:00] doing. I got super interested in abnormal psychology and I convinced myself that I should be a psychologist and apply to clinical PhD programs. Got rejected from all of them which forced me to take a couple of years off and find a job, which is when I found the Emily program, the eating disorder treatment facility, literally Googling bachelor's degree psychology jobs near me. Cause there's not much out there with [00:06:30] that degree. was still interested in eating disorders in college.

  I did a research project on it, but I didn't think it would be so prominent in my life and working there with my coworkers and the clients, both kids and adults, I really started to take a hard look at myself before I started to kind of look at society and outwards and started to challenge. My own relationship with my body, societal standards, [00:07:00] and internalized fat phobia that I had learned from society and our culture.

  And through that self reflection, I got angry. I got so angry. and knew that I wanted to do something about it. And my relationship with my body has is and will always be there and it ebbs and flows and it's not something I can ignore. So I really, really wanted to do something with that.

  And a lot of clients that came through the Emily program were either current or former athletes. [00:07:30] And I started to see patterns within sport that I kind of knew were there, but didn't see it as consistently as I did talking with these with these clients. And that's when I Kind of realized, okay, I think this was a sign.

  I kind of believe everything happens for a reason. And, you know, I took some detours in order to land me here at the Emily program, get this incredible experience, learn to fully know that this was my passion and what I [00:08:00] wanted to do, and then I was able to go back to school from there and get my master's realize I wanted to do more on the mental health side and not just research.

  And that's when I. landed here at West Virginia University to hopefully get my license in clinical mental health counseling and that certification in mental performance consulting to bridge that gap.

  Jess: That's awesome. What a cool journey. And I love just the reassurance when people like, you went into and you're like, oh, math major because I want to be successful. You know, we [00:08:30] all have those, things that we might, I don't know, I think about it as like, I've been saying this so much today, like the F around and find out.

  When we're growing up, we don't really, that wasn't really reinforced to us. Like, you don't have to know exactly what you want to do when you finish high school, and your interests are going to change. And seeing that be more of the case of, like, giving permission to explore different options because you wouldn't have ended up where you are now, and pursuing things that you're actually passionate about, that you care about, and like, changes that you want to [00:09:00] bring into the world, like, you wouldn't have gotten there.

  And so I think that's really cool.

  Hannah: Right. And I also, there was a point in time where I was like, a little bitter at some of my mentors who I would say, quote unquote, let me apply for these PhD programs while an undergrad with very little experience at that point. but I've now come to realize, they were letting me apply. exactly like you said, find it out myself. and I'm really grateful that they did and it landed me where I am today. And I'm really [00:09:30] happy that I went back to grad school a little older too. So I really recommend after college taking a year, taking a couple of years to get that practical experience before jumping back in to education.

  Jess: Makes a, big difference on the other side. my dad would love this because he didn't go back to school until his 40s. and he finished his master's and he started teaching and he's a few years into his, teaching and he's like, I want my PhD. So he's now Dr. Dad. 

  Hannah: incredible. 

  Jess: and [00:10:00] because he's teaching, like, at a university, he's an eternal student, like, he still takes classes.

  that's who he is now, but it's hilarious, because he gives me a hard time. I have my bachelor's, and my day job, I'm a dental hygienist. And so, there's really no tangible benefit to going back to school for a master's but every time I talk to my dad, he's like, when are you going to get your master's? When are you going back to school? When are you going back to school? he's like, eventually I'm going to wear you down.

  You're going to go back.

  Hannah: And maybe it'll be, I mean, maybe that'll happen. Maybe it'll be in something that you would have never [00:10:30] expected right now. 

  Jess: Honestly, okay, I will say this, and this interview is not about me, but talking about going back to school, I do love school, I do love learning, and with the growth of this podcast, and with the coaching that I do, with like, running and lifting,

  Hannah: Yes. 

  Jess: want to go back to school for psych and I want to focus on like the behavior change piece of things because confronts me daily and then like if we tie it back into being in dentistry.

  When we're talking to patients about brushing and flossing [00:11:00] habits, like, that is behavior change. when I talk to clients about, running their first marathon, that is behavior change. When I talk to them about performance nutrition and changing different food choices, Behavior change, like there are so many things where I'm like, I love, I want to do this and I talked to my husband and he's like, do you need to go back to school?

  What is that going to change? I was like, I want to learn more. I want 

  Hannah: I mean, 

  Jess: just for me.

  Hannah: yes, and that's, I think that's the perfect [00:11:30] sign that you should, that you're fired up about it, you see it relevant in so many different areas of your life, and honestly, you sound like a perfect candidate for mental performance consulting because that performance piece, we often think of it within sport, but it's everywhere, I mean, Performers can be musicians, theater public speakers, coaches doing anything can really be boiled down to I'm performing something. and it does [00:12:00] also involve that behavior change. So if you're interested, you might be interested in a master's in sport and performance psychology. Just saying.

  Jess: believe me, if I wasn't staring down like eight more months of student loan payments before they're all gone. That's the one piece where I'm like, okay, maybe it's, yeah, it's definitely been

  Hannah: there are graduate assistantships as an option. I didn't pay anything besides a couple hundred dollars in student fees during my first master's. Just [00:12:30] saying, there are 

  Jess: I might need to pick your brain on this later. 

   But the listeners don't need to hear me brainstorming my next, my next career path right now. Oh my god.

  Okay, I want to turn this, so we're gonna go two directions. One, I want to turn this to talking about kind of your, body image, like, history, your story.

  Just, we had touched on that when we had our chat a couple months ago, and just how that background really lit the fire for you, like being at the Eating Disorder Treatment Center and like you looking like, oh my gosh, these are the [00:13:00] areas I want to focus. And then also I'm going to go back to where you're focusing on in your PhD and what your research topic is because it just ties into Sturdy Girl so well.

  So yeah, two parts, one personal, one professional, if you will.

  So take it away.

  Hannah: I guess we can start with a little more on my like body image journey. and sometimes I struggle with the word journey because to me that insinuates like an end point or a [00:13:30] destination that we reach when I've come to realize, and you seem to also agree of like, it's never a destination.

  It's always going to be there and it's going to continue throughout life. I mean, especially being a woman going through puberty, going through menopause. When I get older our bodies change and our relationships. With our bodies will also change and ebb and flow and realizing that has been one of the actually [00:14:00] hardest things for me to come to terms with because it's one thing to realize that I've internalized, you know, self objectification and, you know, Viewing my body as an object to be consumed rather than something to just help me get through life and day to day life or internalized fat phobia that society has taught us to fear fat and fear weight gain and fear body changes.

  And it's one thing to realize that, and then to realize that even on the [00:14:30] days where I feel good about how my body either looks or how it feels, what it can do. There's also going to be a day that comes later where I don't feel as good. and that's been the hardest part, realizing that that is okay. And that's part of life.

  and that's part of being in the society that we live in that is so hyper focused on appearance especially now with like Ozempic. Being mainstream, and everybody, seemingly everybody, you know, online and on [00:15:00] social media dropping weight like crazy, and us not knowing a ton about the side effects yet it makes sense too, that it's going to change, And so that's something I still work on constantly and trying to have self compassion for those moments when I feel almost like a hypocrite at times where I'm researching body image, I'm speaking about weight stigma, and how we should focus on what our bodies can do and our [00:15:30] relationship with our body instead of our appearance.

  And then feeling. You know, going home and feeling self conscious about my appearance or judging how I look like. I feel like a hypocrite often in those days. And so practicing self compassion in those moments is so powerful and so liberating and easier said than done. would say it's been a process and I see myself having more, Better days than worse days.

  Whereas when I [00:16:00] was, you know, a teenager in college, it felt constant that I was always judging myself. I was never skinny enough, pretty enough, anything. And now more often than not, I can at least feel comfortable or neutral in my body. And that's been a challenge. it's been an interesting journey nonetheless.

  Jess: I think that really speaks to the human experience, and I just appreciate that you're like, it's a journey without a destination. And I like to have the conversation with body image as like when [00:16:30] we get to a quote unquote healthy place, whether that is neutrality, acceptance, positivity, flexibility, like whatever that might look like, the true I don't want to say measure of a healthy place, but it's It's spending less time and energy thinking about our bodies and our appearance, utilizing so much of that energy towards how we look or that self objectification piece, or how am I being perceived by other people and, you know, really paying a special attention to the clothes you wear, makeup you put on, or those things, right?

  It's less [00:17:00] energy there and more energy on the Living your life

  Hannah: Yes. And being.

  Jess: and yeah, and being and like, and it's one of those things that I've had a few conversations around this recently, not just on the podcast, but just humans on the day to day. Oddly enough, I ended up talking about my podcast fairly often while I'm working in the dental office uh, which has been kind of fun, but when people are like, well, what, What does a healthy body image mean anyways? And I'm like, well, it's a lot of things. But the one that people get really, I think, ruffled about is when you're like, no, it just means that you. Think about it [00:17:30] less. It's not that you're looking in the mirror and you're like, oh my god, I'm so hot. This is 

  amazing.

  That's not it. That's not the answer. And maybe for some of us, we get to a point where we look in the mirror and we love our appearance or we love the shape of our thighs or whatever it might be. But like the vast majority of us, That's not what we're aiming for.

  Hannah: Right. And to me, this is my own personal opinion, that sounds so fleeting. Because like I said, if I'm focused on loving how I look right [00:18:00] now, I'm not gonna look the same right now, next week, next year, ten years from now. you know, I'm nearing. 30 years old and thinking more and more about, being 50, 70. and I want to be able to just be in those moments of my life and experiencing what's in front of me, rather than focused on, I wish I looked like how I did when I was 30. And then when I'm 30 thinking about, Oh, I wish I looked Like, I did when I was 18. Like, [00:18:30] that's completely unattainable and just sounds like a recipe for misery, 

  Jess: Yeah. Frustration. Like, when you're 95 years old, are you going to wish that you spend as much energy as you are right now on your body?

  Hannah: Right. 

  Jess: and our bodies are meant to change. I think that's to where you're like, you're not going to look the same next week as you do in a year as you do. I recently interviewed someone who is a parenting counselor in Australia, actually.

  And we talked about, like, the body image changes that go through when you go through [00:19:00] pregnancy. your body changes. Insanely, like being raised in a society that's like stuck in your stomach, don't show your fat rules, like very, very much like the smaller the stomach, the better. And then to suddenly purposefully be growing your belly and like all of the things that that can bring up.

  And then the postpartum piece of like bounce back culture and all of that, when your bodies do very deliberately change. 

   you need to, yeah. And then you go through menopause and your body changes because the hormonal changes are insane. all of those [00:19:30] pieces, our bodies aren't meant to stay the same.

  Hannah: Exactly. so, yeah, if you're tying, if you're tying the healthy body image, being able to look in the mirror and be like, Oh, I like everything about me. What are you doing? It changes.

  Exactly. And subtly slash not so subtly shifting towards some of my research. 

  Jess: Let's do it. 

  Hannah: I recently did a study where I surveyed Women athletes in college about their embodiment, and we can get more into what that really means. But a lot of responses came from athletes, maybe [00:20:00] who are feeling more positively about their body.

  They talked about that they were feeling good now because they were an athlete who spends 20 plus hours a week exercising and competing and. That's another big issue, especially for athletes, is we might feel good as an athlete and many athletes don't as they're an athlete, but then that transition out of sport can be even harder when we expect our bodies to [00:20:30] stay the same all the time.

  or. Wish that we could go back in time. That transition is so hard and so jarring for people. And I think. That is one of one of the top reasons why I'm excited about doing this research and doing this work is because an athlete, speaking of changes, athletes, careers, end that is a fact now your definition of an athlete can change.

  You know, I, I like to think of people can be forever athletes, but competing, you know, [00:21:00] in college, even at the professional level, That's going to end. So being able to prepare yourself now for that ending and for that transition, the new beginning of going from competitive athlete to forever athlete, or sometimes I've heard everyday athlete, and that is one of the most important pieces of being able to figure out that.

  I really like body, image, flexibility, and embodiment to prepare yourself, for sure.

  Jess: just thinking even on the like [00:21:30] everyday athlete level when I was running a ton And I was full on running obsessed. My entire identity was being a runner

  And was very much middle of the pack So it wasn't ever that I was like winning races or anything, but I was like Hell bent on improvement, getting faster, all the things.

  And then I tried four marathon cycles just back to back to back on a super high volume training plan that had worked for so many, so many of my friends. So like, it's going to work for me and burnt myself out [00:22:00] completely. And I suddenly couldn't put on my running shoes without being a sobbing mess.

  Like it was like that level of burnout and it took. six months of being able to even get the shoes back on and want to go run again. But that identity crisis of like, well, if I'm not a runner, then who am I? Like that piece in and of itself. So when you're talking about like, competing, on a collegiate level or professional level, knowing those athletic careers and that identity that you had for so long, that's going to tie into your body image.

  It's going to tie into [00:22:30] your relationship with self. the heck do you prepare yourself? that's a big. bit of work. 

  Hannah: Yes, and not easy work either. I mean, I had a very similar experience with basketball. I was so, so burnt out by the time I decided to stop competing. that was when I was 19 years old when I made that decision. And I played my first pickup game two weeks ago, since then. That It has taken me, almost nine [00:23:00] years to feel like I can go back and just play. For fun. and a lot of it was body image related, not all of it. but it was all mental stuff and being able to put those shoes on for once and just play and have fun was so liberating and so exciting.

  so if I can help or if anybody, this research, this talking about it can help people close that gap. So it's not nine years. Maybe you take some time off, but you [00:23:30] can return to sports still in a different way or new try new sports, try new hobbies even, and feel comfortable and. liberated doing them like that.

  That is the goal. 

  Jess: That's awesome. Okay, were you just like, oh my god, so exhilarated actually playing a game of pickup? Like, I can't believe I'm doing this.

  Hannah: yes. And I was playing against a bunch of, 18 year olds. So that was also an interesting dynamic because since I'm a grad student, I can play the intramurals. And so I [00:24:00] played with them and it was really interesting because it's like, okay, people I'm playing against now. That was the time when I quit and never returned.

  Now, granted. I've been coaching for 10 plus years, so I've, you know, I've shot, I've played, I've ran in drills because I'm a coach, but like an entire game competing for fun? No, couldn't be me for lots of reasons. So seeing that dynamic too of like, Oh, I could picture. Myself, on this [00:24:30] same court with me when I was 19, 20, and almost feeling a sense of grief that it took me so long, but at the same time, happiness that I did finally do it.

  I mean, there was two teams in this entire women's intramural basketball league. so I wasn't sure what I was getting into and I'm really, we played exactly one game because that's. Yeah. Like all we had, but I was really glad that I did it and we lost and I didn't care and I didn't care how I looked. There were people [00:25:00] watching both on the sidelines and just like casually. 'cause we were in the rec center. And I realized if this had been a couple years ago, I probably wouldn't have played because I would've been so self-conscious about how I looked, both appearance-wise, but also looked. Playing like, do I look like an athlete?

  Do I look like I know what I'm doing? And to not have to worry about that was so 

  Jess: what huge growth and recognition of growth too.

  Hannah: Trying to.

  Jess: Okay, I want to talk more about your specific area [00:25:30] of research on embodiment and Really want to open it up to you on what that means what it looks like and how that applies within Body image like tell me all the things

  Hannah: Yeah. So embodiment, I don't even remember how I stumbled upon this research but the term embodiment has been around for a long time. I mean, I, I literally looked it up for this interview and it's at least since the 1800s, but the concept of positive embodiment as it [00:26:00] relates to body images. a lot newer. And the framework that I used is, is based on Dr. Niva who describes how we engage our bodies in the world and how we feel in our bodies is embodiment. And this contrasts with kind of pop culture's idea of body image, which typically focuses on how we feel about our bodies instead of In it, such as about our appearance, about even our ability and functionality of [00:26:30] looking at the outside in that can be harmful.

  So this concept of embodiment and positive embodiment takes a little more of a holistic approach. and Dr. Perron describes it through five different types of experiences. First body connection and comfort. So what we typically. think about when we think of body images, that body connection and comfort in our body's attuned self care.

  So, do we know what our body needs? For one, which can be [00:27:00] hard for some people. And then, do we actually give it what it needs? You know, do I feel my hunger and then feed myself, right? Do I feel my fatigue? And go to bed like it can be something as simple as that. the other three inhabiting the body as a subjective site rather than an objective site, which is a mouthful, but basically the idea of again shifting perspective of instead of outside looking in.

  I'm inside looking in, like how, how [00:27:30] do I feel in my home in my body versus. How do I think I look or how do I think I feel from the outside? and what people might judge me about and then agency and functionality. So this idea of like using our voice, using our autonomy and our choice to make change in the world.

  The world and for ourselves speaking up when something's not right, or even when we just have an opinion, it doesn't even have to be something groundbreaking, but are we speaking up [00:28:00] and, and using our voice and our ability. And the last one is it this experience and expression of. desire. And this can be, through sexuality. It can also be through literal appetite, especially when we're thinking about disordered eating. Like, we disrupt that a lot of, I'm really want a cookie. For maybe I'm not even hungry, but I'm really craving a cookie and that is okay. And we often demonize that feeling of desire and craving, [00:28:30] but it's part of being a human being and we can honor that feeling, and that can be really empowering.

  So I really enjoy. Researching and thinking about this idea of embodiment because on days where maybe my connection and comfort is a little unsteady. Maybe I'm not feeling as comfortable or connected to my body. I could be shift my focus and focus on that self care or using my voice or trying to challenge at [00:29:00] least feeling objectified or even internalizing objectification.

  So that's kind of how I describe embodiment and would slash will hopefully use that framework when I'm licensed counselor and finally working with athletes on that mental health side.

  Jess: That's a really awesome explanation of embodiment. what has your research looked like thus far, like, tell me more on that. 

  Hannah: Yeah, so I'm finishing up a very large project, arguably too [00:29:30] large for my degree, but I was looking at athletes in women's sports at the collegiate level and just first wanted to document their embodiment and see how they're doing. because we know that athletes in women's sports are at a really high risk for disordered eating.

  They're unhappy often with how their body looks and how it performs. So I wanted to get a little more of a holistic picture, and to [00:30:00] see if there was a relationship too, how we feel in our bodies things like Performance, sport performance, sport enjoyment, and even my commitment to my sport because we have so much knowledge and we have a lot of tools to help athletes improve their relationships with their bodies.

  I'm not going to say we don't, we have incredible ones out there, but it's not always being used or prioritized especially at the college [00:30:30] level when there's such a high risk. So my idea of looking at these other variables like enjoyment and commitment is to see one, If there is a relationship, like I think there is, and two highlight this for athletic directors, coaches, you know, national governing bodies of like, we already knew there was a problem.

  Yes. And we now see that there's a relationship between an athlete's commitment to their sport, which is what I'm finding in the data and their enjoyment in their sport. [00:31:00] And how they think they perform. So if we continue to neglect this area in sport, athletes are going to continue to drop out. They're going to go into the transfer portal if they do stay in sport, or they're going to just burn out.

  You're not going to see the performance that you want. Again, if we're thinking kind stakeholder side, you're not going to see that growth. athletes aren't going to be as happy. They're going to develop other mental health concerns. Which we already know, but now, through the data that I've seen, now we know [00:31:30] that, and it's documented, so I'm excited to get this research finally, like, out there and published, and to hopefully see what other people continue to also build off with that.

  Jess: That's a massive undertaking.

  Hannah: Yeah, and there is even more to it than what I just described, but that would probably take us a lot longer than we have time for, but those were kind of the biggest pieces and the pieces that I was most excited to explore. 

  Jess: That's awesome. So turning this to just like, gen pop, [00:32:00] if you will, to, to us average non collegiate athletes. In the concept of embodiment, do you have any, I want to say tips, but direction or conversations to be had for people that are like, hey, this sounds, this really resonates with me. I like this idea of embodiment.

  you know, we talked about the five different experiences of like what embodiment involves, but maybe what, we could maybe do to work on 

  this. 

  Hannah: So first off, don't neglect those other pieces. we focus a lot, especially [00:32:30] as girls and women in society, we're taught to focus. on appearance, and how we look and how we behave in society. and I'm never going to say that you have to forget about all that, right? Because that is the society that we live in.

  and sometimes you have to, but remembering there's other pieces to our relationship with our body, like that self care piece, the agency, using your voice, using your [00:33:00] power, especially now, at the time we are at, women using their voice and power is so important. and then noticing how focusing on those pieces can actually kind of indirectly impact your body image and how you feel more about your body as well, because that's why it's all together.

  That's why it's put into this idea of embodiment, because they're all related and they all impact each other. So I would encourage again, just to kind of [00:33:30] sum it up, focusing on those other areas, especially on days where maybe you feel not so confident or not so good, or really stuck in that feeling of negative spiral, maybe, of judging yourself or thinking negatively about how you look, how you feel, and focusing, shifting that attention elsewhere to see if you can disrupt those thoughts and at least kind of regulate those thoughts and emotions and then hopefully slash Likely, [00:34:00] you'll see an improvement too in that body image piece.

  Jess: Those are really helpful. I think about too, depending on the day, like, first of all, we forever and always will have body image disruptions, forever and always will have good body image days and bad body image days, and sometimes it's worth that internal reflection of, like, challenging the thoughts and challenging, like, what's coming up.

  And then other times, it's what you're talking about, like, the other ways of taking action to stuff that's outside of that experience or [00:34:30] feelings about our body. So you're, like, using your voice, getting involved. Like, I think that that's not something that is talked about enough in the body image space.

  I think that we talk about like, the curation of our social media feeds or things like that, or people you surround yourself with. Like there's a lot to be said there, but specifically I was thinking in context of like, since starting this podcast, I'm like, oh my gosh, like I feel like the body image space is evolving.

  And then I realized that no, I've just stopped seeing and looking for of the like [00:35:00] crazy, shake your butt in a bikini on camera because that equals body positivity. Mindset like I have so seen that stuff as much and I'm like, Oh, no, no, it's still out there. There's still a lot of people that talk about that.

  But I've surrounded myself with people who are on the research end of things who are on the experiential piece of it. So this conversation, I think, too, is just making me think about the origins of body positivity movement. talking about a lot of like, the work that needs to be done in society.

  And especially, too, given [00:35:30] current climate and just feeling like, Okay, what are some of these actions that we can take? So, I like that that is kind of where this conversation is going. Because there's so much more conversation and action that needs to come 

  Hannah: 1000%. I agree. And I've practiced it myself and noticed when I am feeling empowered and liberated, regardless of how I was feeling about how I looked maybe five minutes ago, the day before, I just feel [00:36:00] better. And like I said earlier those feelings can creep back and they probably will because again, that's the society that we live in, even though we're trying to change that of course but it brings me comfort to recognize and know these feelings will all change.

  Like when I'm feeling bad. Even outside of body image, just negative or sad, heavy emotions in general, remembering and recognizing that this feeling will end has been also empowering. okay, this will end. And if I [00:36:30] lean into it and like, feel those feelings, which is, I would argue a part of that attuned self care piece of embodiment of letting your body tell you what it needs to feel and what it needs to do.

  And sometimes when I'm feeling particularly sad or burnt out, I am a grad student after all I allow myself, I feel that and I allow myself to bedrot and feel those. It's really heavy, heavy emotions, because I know they will pass if I just let them come and [00:37:00] go. yeah, that would be some of the biggest things to take away for me as 

  well. 

  Jess: That's fantastic, because then you're not letting it mean anything about you. And that's one of those things, too, that within body image, within self confidence, within any of these things related to, like, relationship with self that we work on, is letting those things come up. Understanding that these feelings that's something that I find really fascinating is how many Buddhist principles tie in with a lot of like body image type research.

  The idea like [00:37:30] impermanence, right? Everything is temporary, including those feelings. And I find this really interesting this time of year, especially where we have a lot less daylight. I say as I watch it get dark 

  outside your window right now, you know, 

  like, 

  all right. three hour time difference,

  and talking about, like, seasonal affective disorder and how much that impacts our mood and our feelings and the conversations around, like, it's temporary and it doesn't have to mean anything about you.

  If we let ourself feel those feels, they're going to pass. But the more that you try to attach yourself onto them, [00:38:00] hold onto them, make them mean things about you, the The more that they perpetuate, the deeper they get embedded in a way that it's harder to work your way through, or out of, or whatever it is, letting it pass.

  yeah, it's an ongoing conversation. 

  Hannah: Yeah, and you perfectly described kind of the key component of acceptance and commitment therapy, which is a type of therapy that's having a moment right

  Jess: Oh, it's, I love, I 

  yes, all things act, yeah, 

  Hannah: yeah, 

  it's like, wait, so that you've perfectly [00:38:30] described self as context versus self as content. so yeah, so it extends well past body image and all emotions and feelings.

  And the tricky part can be when you're dealing with maybe something more chronic, like an eating disorder. Like those feelings can feel like they never go away. They never change. but trying to shift perspective and then noticing when they might always be there. But when are they not as [00:39:00] strong or when are they not as present because that will always happen or major, you know, major depression or generalized anxiety, those feelings might always be lurking, you know, while you're still struggling with them, but they're not always at 100 percent intense.

  And recognizing those changes and fluctuations can help you enjoy those moments where they're a little less and be able to act in those moments and continue that work to, you know, hopefully [00:39:30] reduce that noise as you go on and on. I love act, I mean, psychological flexibility is like everything that we've talked about throughout this whole podcast.

  So I love that you love it too.

  Jess: the more reason why I'm like, yeah, the more reading I do, the more I want to go back to school.

  Hannah: Right. 

  Jess: I think too, the, a lot of the psychological flexibility, I mean, that's a lot of what I lean towards within these conversations on Sturdy Girl is like body image flexibility in relation to like that emotional flexibility, cognitive flexibility.

  [00:40:00] Like I think that it's an incredible skill set to practice because a lot of the conversation around body image, especially ends up being like, Very concrete examples instead of like, no, no, these things like body image doesn't exist in a vacuum. None of these things we're talking about, like, we exist in a world that has the media, social media, society as a whole, the systems that are in place, like, all of these, like, systemic issues, like, all of those things factor [00:40:30] into this.

  So sure, like, in this very specific moment in time, I feel really good in my body.

  Then you take and bring in the rest of things and you're like, oh crap. Okay. There's a lot more 

  there. 

  Hannah: Yes. And it would make sense to feel like an everlasting doom. Like that's why when people talk to me or even reading in the research, you know, people describing like, I never feel like it's going to get better. it makes sense. And I empathize with that so much. and I like that you also said that it's a [00:41:00] practice, it's something you have to practice and get better at.

  I mean, I'm still. Trying to get better at it. like I said, some days I feel like a hypocrite because I'm saying one thing, but having a different internal experience. So constantly trying to practice it, you know, and bringing it back to sport. I constantly use the, comparison of, did you pick up a basketball, a golf club, a football and immediately you were as good as you are now, no. It took a lot of [00:41:30] time. It took a lot of failure actually to get better at it, to learn from it and get as good as you are now. And as good as you are now, isn't your peak, like you can still get better and you will see yourself get better. As long as you. continue to learn from failure. So I like to use that comparison within sport and out of sport because it's so, so relevant.

  Jess: This is so good. wrapping all of this up if there was like one Takeaway that you wanted our listeners to remember from [00:42:00] this conversation What would it be?

  Hannah: Well, I think it's something we've, talked about already, just this remembering that you will not feel a hundred percent confident or happy or good in your body all the time, 24 seven. And knowing that fact and thinking about it, again, can feel sad. we're taught if we work hard, we go to therapy, and we try all these things, we're gonna be happy, we're gonna reach that. that's ultimately [00:42:30] not the reality because we're humans and life happens. so being able to embrace that to then in the moments where you don't feel confident, where you don't feel good to embrace yourself and practice some self compassion of like, I know today is really hard or especially hard and It will end and that's okay. And you feel this way for valid reasons. We just talked about all the like systemic issues that can impact how we feel. Like there's no [00:43:00] shame also in feeling sad or negative about our bodies either. So that's probably one takeaway, if anything, 

  Jess: I like that. And it just goes back to the, the thought of impermanence, right? When you're like, these feelings will pass.

  Hannah: Yes. 

  Jess: is there anything else you wanted to touch on as far as embodiment, body image, your journey, 

  journey with air quotes? 

  Hannah: we're redefining journey. How about that? journey without an end point. you know, it's funny with that question of like, oh yeah, [00:43:30] there's plenty more I could say. but I think we've covered kind of the main points that I think are some of the most important, this idea of impermanence, self compassion when things are hard and maybe shifting to a more holistic understanding of body image, which might be embodiment for some people. So I think we covered the main points. 

  Jess: that's perfect. Yeah. the concept of self compassion, we talked about it, but not identifying it. I think it's worth repeating because I've [00:44:00] brought it up on the podcast before. a lot of people view as like letting themselves off the hook. Like, Oh, I'm being self compassionate to myself.

  Like I got home from work and I'm tired and I just, I'm recognizing I'm tired. So I'm not going to work out. And you're like, okay, that, that might be the answer, but self compassion might be Okay, I'm tired every day after work, and I recognize that, and so this is holding myself accountable to say, I'm getting in a 20 minute workout, 

  even when I'm tired, because then I can go to bed right after that, or whatever it is.

  Like, self compassion it's not a free for 

  all. 

  Hannah: [00:44:30] And even like, maybe it's a 20 minute workout. Maybe I had a run planned. Maybe now I'm going to go for a walk,

  you know, 

  Or, I, also struggle with this idea of, like, excuses or letting yourself off the hook because my mind kind of goes back to what we know about binge eating and cravings when it comes to eating disorders of, like, oftentimes it feels like an excuse and it feels like we're setting, letting ourselves off the hook because taking a rest [00:45:00] is shameful because we add this judgment to it just like I can't control myself around cookies because I don't allow myself to have cookies ever because they're bad.

  Right? So maybe even shifting our mindset of what does rest look like, allowing ourselves to have more rest, or whatever this self compassion might look like, and you might see it balance out a little more. Like, maybe, At first, it looks like I'm not gonna work out after work for a [00:45:30] week, changing our mindset about what rest means.

  Now I have more flexibility, So now I work out more consistently because I allow myself that flexibility. 

  Jess: Permission to understand, to listen. Permission and letting your body like, understand that your body is going to tell you what it needs. 

  Hannah: Yes. Yeah. very empowering. Yes. Oh my gosh. Okay, you've brought up cookies, so I want to jump into our, like, wrap up questions and I'm switching it switching it up on you from the ones I gave you.

  Jess: I want to know if you have [00:46:00] a favorite kind of cookie.

  Hannah: Ooh, honestly, a classic chocolate chip cookie. if anybody listening Is familiar with the Minnesota State Fair, probably a sweet Martha's cookie. It's perfect. It is literally the most perfect cookie and chocolate chip cookie that is out 

  there 

  for sure. 

  Jess: I need to make my first trip to Minnesota just to to try one of these 

  Hannah: Yes. People do. You wouldn't be the first.

  Jess: I mean, I do have friends out there, so maybe I do need to give it a [00:46:30] whirl.

   Okay, so my next fun question is a little bit of a long one. I like to pick a word for each year. And sometimes it's related to my current core values, sometimes it's not, but I like to choose one that's, like, this is, like, the energy with which I want to go into the year with. we're getting closer to 2025.

  So I was curious if you have like a word that you picked for, for next year.

  Hannah: Thinking about this, and it's funny we just ended on talking about self compassion, because that, I [00:47:00] think, is my word, and it's my energy because it's Probably the thing that I struggle with the most is having self compassion. especially as I'm getting down to the very last grind of being a grad student and things get more difficult and heavier and more time sensitive.

  And I need to practice self compassion and even compassion with others, because when I'm feeling burnt out, I Notice myself get less compassionate and that's, [00:47:30] it's like a negative cycle because when I'm not as compassionate towards others, then it kind of bounces back towards me towards myself. And then it's just this spiral. So I really want to be about 

  that. 

  Jess: I like that. great word. Especially choosing it in the season you're in too.

  Hannah: Right. I don't know if I have a word yet for next year. I've been leaning towards the word savor. Only because I found myself noticing like the idea of being present and enjoying the present moment in [00:48:00] savoring.

  Jess: really working on Just with like with food and enjoying food because I'm, I'm really good at sitting down and reading my Kindle while I'm eating and recognizing that being present with your food makes you enjoy it more. and so that piece or like savoring the small moments, like when we go take the dogs on a walk and I realized that there's every single color of leaf on the ground, you know, just really trying to make it a point because kind of came up from the The article, the top five regrets of the dying and talking about like, enjoying your life [00:48:30] and, and recognizing how much the small moments are the big moments.

  and especially when you're busy, which most of us understand very well it's harder to, to recognize those. So that's where 

  I'm leaning right now. Yeah, 

  Hannah: it sounds like there's a lot of energy behind that one. So

  Jess: Okay what is the number one book you've recommended or given as a 

  gift? 

  Hannah: I need to give more books as gifts. I don't think I ever have, but if I were to recommend, and I think my recommendation [00:49:00] for anybody in any kind of field is what we don't talk about when we talk about fat by Aubrey Gordon. First off the book is written wonderfully, really easy to read.

  And two, it just opens your eyes to so many crazy things about, like we talked about society, body ideals. BMI, which I won't get on my soapbox about and 

  she includes, yes, 

  to sum it all up, [00:49:30] and many, many other things, but she, she writes it also from, from a research perspective, she does have research support in her book, but also from a lived experience perspective.

   I just love the book. She also is the co host of the podcast Maintenance Phase, 

  Jess: Ooh. Okay, I need to 

  check that 

  out. 

  Hannah: that too. Yeah. 

  Jess: Thank you. I always need more podcasts in my life.

  Okay, last fun question. How do you take your coffee or [00:50:00] tea or morning beverage of choice?

  Hannah: Ooh, depends on the day. Some days it's fruity carbonated. energy drink. I really love Alanis but if I'm drinking coffee, which is still very often I love a good like flavored latte with oat milk. I love oat milk, yes. Usually I gravitate towards caramel or vanilla classics, but especially now with like the holidays, pumpkin spice latte,

  Jess: it's a little basic bitch action, [00:50:30] you know? It's 

  Hannah: I am not ashamed. I'm not ashamed. I love 

  Jess: It's

  Hannah: for a reason. 

  Jess: Agreed. Absolutely. I drink like an Americano or a black coffee in the mornings and I'm kind of a coffee snob, but there's something fun like all the holiday drinks. if I have trouble getting up to my 5 30 alarm for work, I'll be like, if you get up now, you have time to go through the Starbucks drive through.

  I don't super love Starbucks for many reasons, but mobile ordering, When you're short on time. I just [00:51:00] saw they have the, their sugar cookie latte. Yeah. That's my current favorite. 

  Hannah: Back home in Minnesota, I really love caribou, it's like the Minnesota version of Starbucks but less problematic. And they have mobile order, so I love, love me some caribou. And they're in Florida for some reason. Yeah.

  Jess: random. 

  Hannah: I saw them at a Florida airport once. It was weird.

  Jess: All right. where can audiences find you and learn 

  more? 

  Hannah: So I'm mostly an Instagram girly which is just at. My name, Hannah Silva [00:51:30] Breen. I also recommend, and this is partly because I'm connected to these organizations, the Tucker Center for Research on Girls and Women in Sport for all things like gender equity in sport and the Center for Appearance Research, all things related to body and appearance, both in and out of sport.

  Jess: Love the resources. Thank you for that. And thank you for this wonderful conversation 

  Hannah: Yes. Thank you for having 

  me. 

  Jess: And my husband's going to blame you [00:52:00] if I go back to school.

  Hannah: I'll take that blame. That's Perfect. Oh my gosh. this is great. friends, thank you so much for listening to another episode of Sturdy Girl. We will catch you next Friday.

50. Beyond the Mirror: Tackling Body Image and Building Confidence with Sabrina Del Duca

In this episode of Sturdy Girl, Jess welcomes Sabrina Del Duca, a confidence coach and dancer, to discuss body image, body dysmorphia, and mindset tools for building confidence. Sabrina shares her journey from a 10-year career in advertising to becoming a dance teacher and confidence coach. They delve into the impact of constant self-evaluation in the mirror, experiences with body image growing up, and the importance of accepting one's body. Sabrina also provides actionable tips for building confidence and the significance of taking risks and embracing failure. The episode underscores the journey of self-acceptance and the role of mindfulness in improving mental health among dancers.

Connect with Sabrina HERE.
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• Full Transcript

  [00:00:00] 

  Jess: Hello friends, welcome back to another episode of Sturdy Girl. We're in, Sabrina and I are being extra productive by finally hitting record. Sabrina is going to come on and talk to us about body image, body dysmorphia, all things dancing and mindset tools for confidence. Like I'm so excited for this conversation.

  Welcome to Sturdy Girl.

  Sabrina: Thank you so much, Jess. I'm excited to have this conversation and to be on the receiving end of the interview. Yay.

  Jess: we're going on, this is our second [00:00:30] hour now of conversing. So, for listeners, we're doing a pod swap today, so I was just a guest on Sabrina's podcast. And we talked all things body image and the first steps to working on it. So I think that this is my first actual interview in a year.

  So, we'll let you know when it gets released.

  Sabrina: And now it's my turn to be

  Jess: your turn to turn it around and for me to get to hit mute for minutes at a time.

  Sabrina: it.

  Jess: [00:01:00] Yes! Okay, so can you tell me a little bit more about what you do and your focus and maybe if there's any impactful pieces of your journey to getting to where you are now?

  Sabrina: Yes, I am a confidence coach. What does that mean? I help you build confidence through taking those steps towards creating change in your life. I started by just being a mindset coach and helping you create goals and then giving you the tools to be able to get [00:01:30] there. And as I progressed, I realized that there was a common denominator that everybody wanted, which was to feel more confident.

  So if I back up even further than that, my background is in dance, and I've been a dance teacher for over 20 years, and I've had the privilege of seeing students build confidence through dance classes. So that moment where they get the move and they see themselves. Reflected in the mirror and being like, ah, my eyes light up cause I'm so proud.

  And then I feel that with [00:02:00] them or they finish a performance and they walk off stage and they have like tears of joy because they've just danced so well or seeing how hard they worked and it all comes together. I mean, that's what I live for. And still, I'm still teaching now. I'm still teaching in high schools.

  So I work with teens and when I see them come off stage at their year end show, I get. Teary eyed because I just see how much they've worked, how much they want this and just their progression and their confidence in themselves throughout the year has just [00:02:30] made it all worth it for me. And that's why I continue to do what I do.

  And I wanted to bring this into another context. So that's where the coaching comes in. But this was not always what I did. I spent a good 10 year career in advertising, and I was an account director, which means I was basically the people pleaser of the agency. And we had to make sure that everybody was happy.

  So clients were happy, creatives were happy, I needed to make sure everybody was on budget, on timeline, and feeling good. Following the brief and whatnot. There was a lot to [00:03:00] manage and it was amazing until it wasn't, but what's interesting and why I bring it up is because I was in charge of the beauty brands.

  So I worked with the biggest brands in the world. I traveled to their headquarters in New York and LA, and I was helping them with their ad campaigns. But as a result, I was always immersed in the beauty world. So how can you look better? How can you get rid of those wrinkles and that lipstick? and mascara and lashes and all of that.

  So I was immersed in that world and let's keep backing up and going to myself as a [00:03:30] dancer, growing up, being in dance class, always being in front of a mirror. You have no choice but to just look at yourself being on stage, having to wear costumes. So body image for me, and this is the first time I actually make this connection as we're talking about it.

  It's traveled with me throughout the different seasons in my life. Which is kind of cool, but also like, wow, it's really present in everything. Or, it can be..

  Jess: Yeah, making that connection or to even be like, oh that's what that was that we've come all the way around through the whole journey.

  Sabrina: [00:04:00] Yes. 

  Jess: Okay, what kind of dance do you teach?

  Sabrina: I teach jazz.

  Jess: Ooh, that's amazing.

  Sabrina: I love it. I love it because it's so uplifting. It's so fun. But I'm also trained in hip hop, in ballroom dancing, so in salsa, but also like waltz, tango, foxtrot. I also do heels dancing. I do something called whacking. I also do house. I basically do like a variety of different dances.

  Jess: That's amazing. Okay, wait, what's whacking?

  Sabrina: knew you were going to ask that question.

  Jess: I'm like, you threw that in there for a reason because [00:04:30] I have never heard of that.

  Sabrina: That's always the one that people are like, wait, you do what now? What

  Jess: Explain. I've heard of the others. Uh, Yes.

  Sabrina: So, whacking is a very underground dance that's starting to come up mainstream, but it's remained kind of cultural based started in the disco era in the 1970s.

  And it really came from a place of homosexual men wanting to express themselves, but being in a crowded club and not having much room, so they would use their arms a lot. And for those watching, I'm using my arms [00:05:00] and I'm kind of flicking my wrist. And for those listening, just want to describe that, but there's a lot of like around my face, drawing attention to my face, because finally I'm in a safe space where I could just be myself.

  And I can draw attention to myself, whereas in other circumstances, I wouldn't want to. So it's a dance that's very liberating, that's very free, that allows you to play with characters, with personality. It allows you to have fun. Fun have alter egos and dance to traditionally disco music because that's the time that it was [00:05:30] Created but also can be danced on a variety of other music now.

  Jess: That's so rad. Okay. How long have you been coaching? I love this journey from, teaching dance. Well, first of all, advertising and being in the beauty industry. I mean, how much that ties into us talking about body image, about confidence, about a female identifying humans place in society, right?

  And like how much those things impact. 

  But to go from, teaching dance and then recognizing these skills, like, not just the actual dance [00:06:00] skills, but the growth of someone's relationship with themselves and that confidence piece.

  what did that look like to become a confidence coach? Like when you were like, okay, there's more here. What am I going to do with this?

  Sabrina: part of me always felt like I was coaching through my teaching now that I look back and I see what that journey looked like Like I started teaching when I was 18, which is really young when you think about it I was still dancing myself, but I was thrown into teaching at quite a young age and I was teaching kids who were like 15 who were not much younger than me, but [00:06:30] there was a progression of me having to have the confidence and find the confidence to be a teacher, because before that I was very shy, very reserved.

  I'm an introvert. And so those qualities do still come back, meaning like, I'm not going to be the loudest person in the room. I'm not going to speak just to hear my own voice. Like I'll speak with intention, but the idea of getting in front of a class at 18 and not having the practice or experience of speaking in front of a group.

  That forced me to quickly find [00:07:00] ways to gain confidence in myself, to be able to speak and lead this group of students who are pretty much my age. that was my first experience with how do I find the confidence in me? And if you ask anybody who knew me at the time, my family, even friends, that was a huge transition for me of just stepping into my own potential and being able to feel comfortable.

  speaking, whether it be sharing my opinion or just taking my place, taking my space. So there were so many benefits that came from me starting [00:07:30] to teach and teach dance. And that kind of built along the way into my advertising career, where I was the one doing the presentations. So speaking again, leading the meetings and whatnot.

  Then what happened is that 10 year career in advertising, I experienced burnout, which is not uncommon, not uncommon, because The industry is pretty intense. And through that experience, I had to reset. So I had to take a moment to just like pause. What is it that I want to do next? It coincided with the [00:08:00] pandemic.

  So I actually had the opportunity to hit pause and nothing was happening. So I was like, all right, let's rest. Let's reset. Let's learn. Let's go back to what do I enjoy? What do I want to learn about? So I started taking all these online classes, started doing all this healing work, meditation and coaching and whatnot just to kind of like dig deep and be like, what's my next chapter look like?

  Like, what is it that I want to do? And when I left advertising and I was like, what am I going to do next? I don't know. The one thing that came to mind and stuck with me is I want to [00:08:30] help people. How broad is that statement? Like there's so many different ways to help people. So I needed to dig deeper and be like, okay, how that's where I went to my skills of, okay, I can teach, I could teach dance.

  What is it that I love about teaching dance? What is that feeling that I explained earlier of just like the accomplishment that I see when my students feel accomplished, that pride that they have in their eyes and me having a small part. In helping them feel that way. That's what I wanted to feel. And so through [00:09:00] research and Again, these online classes that were free at the time because everything was just accessible.

  I was able to get into coaching and look at, okay, how can I use this kind of guidance and leadership and all the things that came naturally to me that I realized that I had, how can I impact on a bigger scale? And so coaching felt the most natural. And when I started, it was like, okay, let's help people transition careers.

  Because that's what I had just recently done. And I did help people do that, and that was amazing. And you kind of learn as you go along. [00:09:30] And most recently, I would say because now it's a few years I've been doing this. Most recently, the clients that have been coming to me for coaching have been dancers.

  And I was like, huh, maybe there's something here. Let me see if I can tailor my coaching experience to dancers. And that's where I'm at right now, building programs for dancers to help them with their mental health, because we work on our physical body, meaning like we take the dance classes, we train, we do the technique, we do the different styles, but do we train our mental [00:10:00] health?

  And often the answer is no. And so I actually did my first workshop locally here in Montreal, where it was a mindfulness. workshop for dancers and helping them understand like how their mindset plays a role in how they just show up to dance class, to a performance, to a battle. Cause I'm in the professional dance world, but I'm also in the street dance community and there are similar yet different challenges in each, but it all boils down to what are.

  We thinking, what are our thoughts? What are our limiting beliefs? How are we self sabotaging? And it's [00:10:30] kind of working through that to then be able to show up and help yourself to book the job, go to the audition, take the new class, battle, freestyle, get in the middle of the cipher, whatever it means for you.

  And that's where I'm at. 

  Jess: that I'm the podcast host and not just like listening to someone. Tell me an amazing experience, like listening to a podcast. I'm like, this sounds amazing, but like cool journey. And then I'm just envisioning like your experience with like professional dance, but also street dance and the variety.

  And just saying like, what are the [00:11:00] commonalities that people experience here and now coming to this place of like dancers are coming to me, the confidence piece, all of those things. It's like, I. I love him. I'm paying attention, I promise. I was just like, huh. Yeah, keep talking, tell me more. Okay. Oh wait, I gotta unmute myself.

  Sabrina: I love it.

  Jess: Okay, I love how you explained your journey more or less in reverse. gives so much richness and context to, like, how you got to where you are now. But I want to talk a little bit about your journey as a dancer. And honing in a little more on, you know, I want to get to [00:11:30] confidence.

  And I really, I want to talk about that. But, like, your own journey gaining confidence as a human, as a dancer, as human in this world. There's also that journey with, like, how you want to be. body dysmorphia, body image and how that shifts. I'd love to hear a little bit more about your personal experience with your body and that, journey, especially too, like you said, as a dancer, how much time are you spending looking in the mirror?

  How much time are you spending in tight clothing in worrying about appearance? Because what you do is about appearance in a lot of ways. 

  Sabrina: It is. [00:12:00] It's sometimes all about that, or you feel like it is in the beginning anyways. And being in front of a mirror for all my life, let's just say, I know what I look like very well. So I can also see very quickly when something changes. Right. So I didn't realize until recently the impact that that can have on just being constantly in a mirror, looking at yourself, looking at what you look like, because we use the mirror as a tool, but also like it's always there.

  And there are some people that can go through life not looking in the [00:12:30] mirror. But I have no choice. The mirror is there and I, and I use it for dance, but I also like I'm human. So I'm going to use it to compare my body either to myself, what it looked like last week, last month, last year, or the person beside me.

  So I feel like as a dancer, we need to be careful on how we use the mirror and very mindful if I could say on how easily we can start to compare ourselves. So the mirror is there to help us correct, to help us see. Movement wise, position wise, what needs to be [00:13:00] adjusted, it's not there to look at, Oh, look, my butt looks a bit different today, or it looks a bit bigger, or like, Oh, my thighs are this or Oh, my shoulders are what, right?

  Like we start to kind of spiral into that negative self talk. And for me, personally, I didn't realize that it was just in my subconscious. it would just happen naturally. There are some core memories. The first I remember I was in high school and I was talking to my friends in our phys ed class and the [00:13:30] teacher happened to be there.

  There was like three friends or whatnot. And I think I just said in passing very innocently, Oh yeah, I have my dance show coming up, and so like, we have to wear this costume that's really small, so I'm just going to be careful this week about what I eat and whatnot. I get home that night, and my parents sit me down, and they're like, Sabrina, do you have something to tell us?

  And I was like, what? What happened? Like, did I get in trouble? Like, I'm a straight A student. I'm like, that kid, like, what do you mean? We got a call from your teacher today, saying that you were worried about fitting into your costume, and that [00:14:00] you're not going to eat this week. And I was like, what? Where did that come from?

  So, then I explained to my parents the situation of what had happened, and then my parents were like, Oh, but you know, you gotta be careful, you can't be thinking that way, and whatnot. And at the time, I was mortified. And I remember going into school the next day, and like, not looking at my teacher, and like, not having eye contact with her.

  And thinking back, like, that was a very adolescent behavior. But now I teach adolescents, I teach those high school kids. And I feel like she had the best of [00:14:30] intentions. And if I were to overhear my students talking about not eating, or like, let's even be more dramatic of starving themselves, if there was something there that I was worried about, yeah, I would raise a flag and I would bring it to the attention of the parents.

  So like, teacher, if you're listening, I don't even know where she is in the world. But like, Thank you for what you did at the time. I hated you, but I was just like a moody teenager, but now I understand that you were just concerned. So that was a core memory, like I said, but unfortunately that led me to also [00:15:00] start being very careful.

  Careful meaning like, be careful how much you eat, be careful of this, be careful of that. I also grew up in a household where my parents were very aware of that. My mother would constantly talk about her body image, constantly look in the mirror and say she didn't like something. My father would always be like, don't eat sugar, don't eat this, it's too fattening.

  Like there was that being modeled for me as behavior and even something that I remember my father saying. that stuck with me because I was like, oh my god. He said, be [00:15:30] careful not to wear too many sweatpants, me being in hip hop at that time, because then you might gain weight and not realize it. And I was like, okay, that makes sense, dad, but like, why are we so concerned with body image?

  So I feel like it was passed down to me, and it was conditioned in me, so that I had no choice but to be careful. And if I even look at like my family, family history, some family members are overweight, or some struggle with their weight, so it's kind of like, be careful, you don't want to be like that, or this and that, like [00:16:00] there's so many misconceptions.

  Was it mine? No. It was projected onto me and then I took ownership of it, but it was not mine. And unfortunately, because I took ownership of it, it followed me into my 20s. I remember, I think, in the, in my late 20s, I got into the counting calories trap and I was miserable. Counting calories of everything, documenting, journaling everything I ate being so careful with what I ate, how much I ate, when I ate, that I was just a [00:16:30] miserable human being.

  Did I lose weight? No. I think I probably gained weight, right? My body fluctuated in terms of weight so much during that time because guess what? There was added stress. And I even had a co worker who was doing it with me, so like, we're not helping each other in that sense, we're like cheering each other on of like, okay, count your calories today, oh my god, what a mess that time period was.

  And it wasn't until recently And I would say, in my late thirties, that I was like, you know what, this is who I am, take it or leave it, let's take it, let's accept who I am, [00:17:00] and let's accept that it's maybe not what I would ideally like, like we spoke about in my podcast, like, I'm five feet. Can't change that.

  But let's work with that. Like, what can I do? Hey, I can build muscle quickly. Let me work on that. Let me start lifting heavier and feeling stronger, right? I'm not a runner and I'm never going to have lean muscle mass. So why am I striving for that? I'm someone who has compact muscles. So that means you're going to see like short, compact muscles.

  Let me work with that and get to a point where I can embrace who I am and then dress for [00:17:30] my body type. And when I look in the mirror, yeah, I still sometimes see things that I don't. intentionally want or like, but hey, I can choose to say like, oh, we can just do some more squats and we'll lift that butt right up.

  Like, no big deal. But that leads me to also realize that I had body dysmorphia. So for me, learning what that meant and then relating it to my experience is looking in the mirror and not seeing a realistic view of who I was. So I would look in the mirror, Throughout my life, I was a quite a thin child until I hit my [00:18:00] early 20s and then hormones kicked in and it was like all of a sudden I gained a lot of weight, but then I also dropped a lot of weight.

  So there's a lot of fluctuation. But as a child, as a teen, I was very thin not unhealthy, but just very thin, like not muscular or whatnot. But I would look in the mirror and I would see fat. Is that true? No, it's just my perception. So that's where I realized that like I had body dysmorphia. And I feel like a lot of people struggle with it.

  And even a lot of friends, even well into our adulthood, women, men, everybody, like everyone has a [00:18:30] moment where they look in the mirror and they see something different than what's truly there, which then contributes to how we feel about ourselves. Which then could send us down the downward spiral, unless we do what Jess explained in my podcast and help ourselves through that.

  So go listen to that episode.

  Jess: I love the plug in

  there too. That's fantastic. the fact that the recognition of body dysmorphia didn't come until your adult years growing up in front of a mirror speaks well to, you know, you talking about, like, your teacher and then your family having that [00:19:00] concern so early on, as much as you resented that as a teen, it sounds like you had a really in a, productive way, protective family and a very supportive family to the things that you want to end, like, to your body image, to those things, and it wasn't until, like, you gained more autonomy in your early adulthood that suddenly you're like, oh my god, I can police what I eat.

  I can police how much I move, how much I do all these things, You know, I think that there are, two parts to, you know, talking about, like, the counting calories trap. It is wild to me being in the, I'm gonna just use, like, the buzzword wellness space [00:19:30] or health space, is, like, counting calories, tracking macros, those things can be a tool, and they can be an amazing tool.

  It's how you use them.

  And that's something that, we had talked about when I was on your, your podcast. I'm like, shoot, I'm gonna start mixing these conversations

  now. the pendulum swing of, it's either, like, you don't desire to change your body at all, or you only want to care about aesthetics.

  Like, There's no right answer. It's kind of the, the in the middle thing. And working with that, where it's like the tracking can be a tool to a point because they [00:20:00] think that it's helpful, but it's what's underneath that. If we're tracking to, be careful, like you said, I love that that is like the word trace and how you, thought about it because to a lot of us, it is as well.

  I'm being careful. Yes. I care about my health. that's where I'm coming from. we can use it as a tool to say, Oh my gosh, I didn't realize with the food choices I'm making now, as I've been tracking this, I don't eat enough protein. And if I am. active and I'm a dancer or a lifter or a runner or whatever it might be, I need protein for my [00:20:30] muscles.

  And so you suddenly gain this insight into, okay, well then how can I incorporate this right? And we use it to gather information. But it's when we use that as a restriction or as like some other way where we make it mean things about ourselves is, is hard. And that's something that people fall into.

  I mean, I'm just as guilty. Like the 20, what, 2015, 2016, the whole, if it fits your macros, I was my jam. Oh yeah. Cause then you're just like, you eat whatever you want. It just has to fit your macros. And suddenly you're like, did I just eat a bunch of processed [00:21:00] food all day? 

  Sabrina: Right? 

  Jess: Cool. Cool. 

  Sabrina: See, even in terms of food choices, like, I decided to stop eating meat and become vegan at the time. We called it that. Now it's plant based. But at the time, it's like 15 years ago. I decided for myself, it was from a health perspective, but that was also the time when those kind of conversations were coming to light.

  There were documentaries, there were, there was more research about it, right? So. It was a time where I decided, okay, I'm no longer going to eat this, also because I didn't really like it. [00:21:30] But there weren't any other options yet. Now there's a plethora of options, but at the time, I mean, it's like, just load up on the veggies.

  or the tofu, there was no other alternative. And so it was kind of like having to find your way through making sure that you're still getting enough nutrients and vitamins and looking at it from that perspective and not restricting yourself because you don't want to gain weight.

  Like that was something that I was brought up believing, like we never had sweets in the house. Well, we're Italian, so it's like we eat the pasta [00:22:00] and you'll have a double serving of pasta and that's okay. So that was allowed, but it's more like, okay, now be careful. Maybe tomorrow we'll have salad instead. So it's kind of this, this balance or this juxtaposition of like, like we said, always being careful and being a dancer.

  What I do want to bring up is tying your physical appearance to your value. And that's something that I believed in, and that part of me still does, because it's like, as a dancer, you're on stage, you're performing, you're being looked at. So how you look is going to also play a huge role in [00:22:30] how the dance is being perceived and how it's being performed.

  So. If I'm also being asked to wear something that's not as much coverage as I would like, like, I still want to be able to feel good in what I'm doing. And so, what does that mean for me? Does it mean that I have to do a few more sit ups every day to get that six pack if my midriff is out?

  You know what I mean? Like, what does that mean? And I feel like that's where we can get lost in trying to please, you Or become this image that we think we need to be because we're on stage, because we're in public, [00:23:00] because we're being put out there. That for sure. Being younger too. You get lost in that.

  And now being older, I still, it catches sometimes like I'll catch myself and be like, okay, well this is what it is and we're gonna just work with it. We're gonna roll with it, 

  Jess: like we talked about when I was on your podcast of just that journey of no matter how much work you put in on the body image front on working through that body dysmorphia, there's still going to be triggers. So getting on the stage could very well be that trigger or that hyper vigilance that we suddenly [00:23:30] need.

  then it becomes What can I change when that, that's not necessarily what it's about? 

   But talking about just body image now, now that you've done a lot of this, your own work through these things, like talking about the body dysmorphia through your 20s and like into adulthood where would you say you're at now, especially like still getting on stage and those things and having that awareness, like where, where would you say that your body image sits in this season?

  Sabrina: I feel like I'm in a healthy space [00:24:00] because I'm able to accept my body. not necessarily comparing it to other people, but also knowing what I. need to do for myself to make myself feel even better. So I was joking earlier about squats, but yes, that's something that I do.

  It's like, it's very important to me to do certain exercises that I can see the results immediately in my muscles and then feel better in my body. Or like, if I lose definition in my arms or my shoulders, and I know that my shoulders and arms are going to be seen and they're going to be whacking all kinds, then okay, like, let's lift some [00:24:30] weights and just get that definition back.

  There is a level of control, perhaps, that I've come to learn for myself, like, what works. Even eating, I'm not as careful, we'll use that word again, with what I eat. I eat when I'm hungry. At one point I was restricting myself, like, no eating past 8pm and no eating this and that, like, there were so many restrictions that, again, caused stress. 

  Now, in my season of acceptance, I feel like there's no stress, less stress, let's [00:25:00] not be too crazy here, less

  Jess: Don't, don't invite things from the universe right now by saying that.

  Sabrina: the stress is going to come up, but it's manageable. I know what I need to eat for my body type and what feels good for me. If I want to eat at 10 PM, I'm going to eat at 10 PM because I'm not going to starve myself and then wake up and be like famished and then binge all day because I didn't eat enough the before.

  So it's kind of like, Being gentle with myself, being patient, listening to my body, truly accepting that if I'm [00:25:30] hungry at 10 p. m. Like let's just do a quick checklist. Am I bored? No. Because sometimes that happens too. Like if you're bored, you get hungry. Am I thirsty? Let's drink some water. Oh, I'm still hungry.

  Okay, when's the last time I ate? Five hours ago. Okay. Well, yeah, of course, I'm hungry now, right? so it's kind of like going through and just Making sure that it's not eating out of boredom or emotional eating or just whatever else we can contribute to. It's like Listening to your hunger cues and understanding.

  Is that really what I need right now? And if the answer is yes It's giving [00:26:00] yourself permission to have that snack before you go to bed and not feeling guilty about it and not feeling like okay Well tomorrow I'm gonna do a workout to work it off Because that was something that went through my mind in my early 20s, or in all my 20s early, of, okay, well, if I eat something, I'm just going to have to work it off.

  Or it's like giving, you have to work towards rewarding yourself with food. Which, when I say it in this way, that's why I was struggling to get the sentence out, it's weird. Like, why do I need to work for my food? Like, my food is what fuels me, and it's making those healthy [00:26:30] choices, because I'm not someone who binges, I'm not someone who We'll eat cookies and chips and whatnot.

  I do love my chips. I do love my popcorn. I'm not going to overindulge, but it happens that if I do, I'm gentle with myself and I'm like, that's okay. If I go through a bag of chips in a day, it happens once in a while. I'm not going to get down on myself and feel guilty and then run to the gym. It's like, you know what?

  My body really needed a little, a little indulgence and that's okay. Cause I don't do it every day. So it's that balance. It's that knowing for you, what works. The [00:27:00] fact that I am connected to my hunger cues and my body needs, I feel like there's an opportunity there to just accept that this is what I.

  Would like, this is what I need. This is what I look like. And I know how to help myself move through. If ever I feel like, okay, my costume is a little smaller for this show. How can I work towards it to feel my most confident? Cause it always comes to confidence. It's not necessarily, I expect to look like this person on stage.

  When I'm [00:27:30] nowhere near that person's body type or understanding that I'm my own person. So it's kind of being realistic with what I have to work with and yeah, making those small adjustments improvements if needed, but not ever feeling like, Oh, I need to start myself or only have smoothies for the week and then go to the gym every day and run every day in order to do my show on Friday.

  It's like, no, those days are done. Cause I have been there. But no, those days are done. And I feel like that came with age, with wisdom, with experience. [00:28:00] So unfortunately, there's not just like a, a magic recipe that I asked you for in my podcast about how to get there. For me, it did come more with age and I just got to a point where I felt like, Hey, this is who I am and uh, we, we got to accept it.

  Jess: and like you said, it comes with time. It comes with, age, with experience, but it comes with getting to know yourself. that, that's a huge piece of that too, when we, we were talking about body image and, what is most helpful, it's time and it's getting to know yourself. Like that's so much of that.

  But you mentioned confidence [00:28:30] and that's the main pivot I want to talk about before I wrap up this conversation. But it's really confidence ties into so many areas of our lives. Do you have any, like, if we've got our tool belt on, of, When we talk about confidence, do you have any tips or hammers or nails or things that you can give the audience for building confidence in themselves?

  Sabrina: Don't be afraid to try something new. So confidence comes through action. If we wait to feel confident before [00:29:00] doing anything, we're going to be waiting forever. Because confidence is something that is built. So often through my clients or even in personal experiences, it's like, okay, well, I don't quite feel like I, I have the confidence to perform this piece.

  So I'm going to wait. I'm going to wait till I feel confident, but then by waiting, what am I doing? I'm sitting back. No, I'm going to take those steps. Okay, what do I need to do? I need to put myself out there. I need to at least try. So confidence is giving yourself the permission or the willingness to try.

  And then once you [00:29:30] do try and you see that it's possible, then you're looking at yourself as proof that you can do the hard things. And that builds resilience, which also builds confidence. So it's a combination of you showing up, committing to your word, going through it anyway, even if you're scared, showing up when you don't feel like it, all of this will prove to you that you can build that confidence that you need to keep going.

  And then down the line. You have now an accomplishment list. I like to tell [00:30:00] my clients to say like, here's a tool that you can use. If you're afraid to do something or you're looking to build confidence, maybe you want to go for that promotion, but you don't know how to ask for it. Maybe you want to try a new dance class.

  You want to start something new, but you're not sure in your skill level, or if you're confident enough to even go for it, write a list of all the times. That you felt this way, but that you actually overcame it by taking action. And then look at that list as your list of accomplishments and proof to yourself that you can actually do it.

  [00:30:30] And that gives you a little bit of the motivation and the drive to actually take that step towards what's scaring you or towards what's holding you back.

  Jess: That's exactly it. It's that building self efficacy. The belief in yourself that you're capable of doing something.

  was just reading an article about motivation and realizing the tie ins with confidence because that it's the same thing like you cannot wait to do something until you feel motivated you have to take action to [00:31:00] then feel the motivation we all are motivated people it's what are you motivated by So, if you're like, I really need to go for a run and I'm sitting on my couch right now, it's not that you're not motivated go for a run, you are more motivated by the comfort of your couch.

  You are more motivated by the tiredness in your bones after a 40 plus hour work week. Like, that's where the motivation is. There's always motivation present. And so I think about that in terms of confidence. It's the same kind of thing but it's looking at like, I really love that you lean into it as a skill. [00:31:30] Because that is not. The common conception of confidence. People just think of confidence as this overarching, like, you can see it and feel it when they walk into the room and it's their presence. Okay, maybe that is a part of it, is like how you carry yourself. But that is the visible, like, the outward of you to that person, and maybe their confidence comes from the fact that they have put in tens of thousands of hours of dancing to feel confident getting on that stage, walking into that room and that's where it comes in.

  it's kind of the messy work that we're [00:32:00] talking about, like, with, building body image. Any thing that is worth doing has the messy and unglamorous and unsexy steps to get there, unfortunately. There's no magic recipe besides Doing the work.

  Sabrina: Oh yeah. And I like that you bring up confidence in that way because there's a coach that I collabed with and she had a different view on confidence than what we're just discussing here. So her belief is that you either have it or you don't. So if you're confident, you kind of show up like you described, like you're, you walk into a room and you're [00:32:30] confident.

  So it's like you approach everything with that confidence. Whereas I believe you build it. And just because you're confident in one thing, you don't necessarily have the confidence in something else because I relate it to your experience. So yes, if I practice hundreds of hours, I'm going to be confident to go on stage.

  But if you throw me in a corporate or Accounting firm and you asked me to do a report. First of all, you because I have no idea what I'm doing, but like there's lack of [00:33:00] confidence there because I don't know anything about that world. So there is a level of. Experience or what you're familiar with that contributes to the confidence.

  So think of it as if you're wanting to try something new, if you want to start a company, if you want to start a new project, even starting this podcast, I don't know for you, Jess, but for me, it was like, I don't know about this world but I'm just going to go for it anyway. So there, at first there was no confidence, but there was a willingness.

  A willingness to try. There was a drive, a motivation to [00:33:30] see what could come of this. And the more you do it, the more confident you are in it. And now I'm sure looking back, if we look at our first episodes, we'd be like, Oh my God, we were so scared for nothing. We were so nervous for nothing. Now look at us rolling two hours deep into these conversations.

  back 

  Jess: Oh, my gosh. Yeah. First episodes. I was so like, is this going to be research backed enough? And I don't know. And hopefully my voice will sound okay. And all the things I even think about interviewing to the, confidence with that, because this is the first season with the podcast that I've really done a [00:34:00] lot, like all interviews.

  We've had a handful sprinkled throughout the other seasons. And I was really nervous to start doing more interviews because I was like, Oh God, like, I don't, I don't know how to do this. And my husband the whole time is like, talk to people, talk to people, have a conversation. Like you are a pro at that. Have fun. Right? It's really interesting that the coach you collabed with was like, Oh, like confidence. You either have it or you don't. trying to think of how to say this. It reminds me. So I don't know if, are you familiar with like fixed versus growth mindset? That is like the definition of a fixed mindset right [00:34:30] there.

  You either have it or you don't like that's all or nothing. Like, Oh, I'm just not good at math. that's who I am as a person. And it's really interesting because I think that

  all of us have an inherent level of risk we're willing to take. and we can learn to take more risks, bigger risks, different types of risks. But I think that not necessarily leaning to this like, I'm like, oh shoot, does this sound like I'm leaning into that fixed mindset?

  Not necessarily, but I think depending on how we were, we're raised or our environment or culturally there's a tendency to want to take more or less risk. And that [00:35:00] can play into how we show up or our degree of confidence or degree of willingness to try. I think that there is that piece for sure.

  maybe there's the willingness to try to gain confidence on let's say power lifting, right? And there's some people that are like putting that much weight on my back. Like that sounds like a huge risk. No, thank you. It's a different type of risk. It's a different type of confidence and skill building.

  Sabrina: Which goes back to knowing yourself and what you need, your body, your mind, you know, it's all connected and knowing how much risk you're [00:35:30] willing to take and also not letting the amount or the level of risk discourage you from actually going for what you want, just because it's unfamiliar to you and you've never done it before.

  It doesn't mean that you can try and might take you 10 tries, but you'll get it. Maybe not, maybe you will, but why not go for it? Why not see what could happen, right? Take that risk in terms of like, why settle for less than what you truly want? Why take a chance on not going for your dreams just because you're scared that it's not going to work out?

  So there's confidence in [00:36:00] believing in yourself and knowing that you're going to show up and do what it needs to take, or do what you need to do and what it takes to be able to get to yourself. Get to a place where you feel confident in whatever it is that you're striving for.

  Jess: I think the flip side of this too, I can't help but think about when we're like doing what it takes, there's the willingness to try and there's also the willingness to fail.

  Sabrina: Yes,

  Jess: And that is, we could have a whole episode on this in and of itself, but I was just like, it's worth mentioning in this conversation about confidence is we have to be willing to [00:36:30] fail because failure is just showing us what doesn't work or doesn't work yet, allows us to explore more options or to understand that like this thing is worth doing.

  It's not going to be right the first time. and that's a huge part, especially as humans, and especially in this very um, I was gonna say, not appearance driven, but, how much presence do we have on social media? And it's like, you see these videos of people doing things so well, and you don't see the 700 takes it took to execute the perfect back handspring.

  like, [00:37:00] we can't just go into it. Okay, I'm gonna try and think that we're gonna get it right the first time.

  Sabrina: I feel that you build more confidence through failing than through success.

  Jess: Failure is teaching you something. And I think it really, when you were in it and you're failing and you're like, I do not want to hear this. I do not want you to tell me that failing means that there's like, what lesson is to be learned?

  There's no lesson. I failed. I suck at this. This is so frustrating. But it's when you can take a step back. I mean, the director of my College program, my [00:37:30] dental hygiene program we had orientation and one of the things that I don't remember anything else from her little introduction, she said, there are no problems, only opportunities.

  And that comes into play when we're talking about building a skill, is like, when we fail, it's only a problem if you make it a problem. it's opportunity for you to learn, or maybe it's you're trying something over and over and over again, and you're like, Okay, maybe this isn't my, this isn't the thing, right?

  that's always an answer too, and that's okay.

  Sabrina: Cause you also have to know the [00:38:00] difference between force and trying, like when. If you fall into now, I'm forcing something that's not meant to be, that's where you have to kind of surrender and be like, okay, maybe this is not the path that needs to go on. Maybe this is not what I need to be focusing on, or maybe there's another way to approach it, right?

  So if you feel like you're doing the same thing over and over again, and it's not working, there is a moment or an opportunity for you to tell yourself or ask yourself, Is this still what I should be chasing? Like, is this still what I [00:38:30] want? And maybe there's another way to go about it, or maybe that's just not for me and I need to change my path or change my goal.

  So again, it's self reflection, it's questions. We can probably have a whole episode on that as well, but there is a level of understanding, being aware of how much effort you are willing to put into something before it becomes too much, before it becomes forceful, and then it becomes Too hard.

  Jess: I think about this phrase a lot whether that has to do with confidence or skills or trying things, but a lot of [00:39:00] entrepreneurship and life is F around and find out. and when you can view skill building, trying new things, trying to build a podcast, a business, whatever it might be, a career shift.

  If you take that approach of putting less seriousness into it and you're like, I'm going to f around and find out. Great. Then you can learn, right? And like, I've really I'm going to say the older I've gotten, right? I'm in my mid thirties, like, I'm not saying, like, I am old by any means, but just the more that time passes, the more that really lean into [00:39:30] that because I was very much sure you were mentioning, like, being the straight A student and that kid, right?

  The well behaved one that no one had to worry about, on and on recovering perfectionist. The more it's learning to let go of those tendencies And it's wild, again, that confidence as a skill, the more you can let go and allow yourself to be bad at something, the more skill is built.

  Sabrina: And it's hard not to say that's easy, right? It's 

  hard to just think of like, Oh, what do you mean? I have to be bad at something. Cause there's the recovering [00:40:00] perfectionist. In us, right, of saying, like, well, I need to get it the first try, like, come on now, that's who I am, like, I'm somebody, I'm high achiever, like, everything I do turns out well, so what do you mean I'm gonna fail?

  That doesn't work, that's not part of who I am. So it's shifting your self belief, shifting your identity, which is scary, because once we start talking about identity, it can get, it can get big, and it can get, we can go deep, and it can get very overwhelming, but at the same time, it's like, it's like, You need to be able to know yourself enough to say, is this still working for me?

  Or is it [00:40:30] holding me back? Is that belief that I am tied to being a perfectionist? And that's the only way I can do things. Is that going to help me progress in life? Chances are no. So knowing how to start letting go of that self sabotage, as I always call it, or breaking those patterns.

  Jess: Because even if you have worked through a lot of that, those tendencies tend to crop up. Especially when you try to bring in new things you want to try. That's again, continual bringing up, the podcast.

  I wanted to be good at it from the get go. And then, like you said, you reflect back on your first episode. I [00:41:00] am 40 some odd episodes in now and seeing the progress that was made, improving the microphone, the audio quality, the room that you're in, the, the editing, the way of speaking, all of it, like it has been a skill to build, but I thought that I had done enough research before starting the podcast to be good from the get go.

  Sabrina: Which brings us to another conversation of procrastination and how that holds us back. So thinking that you need to have done all the research or doing everything, laying everything out [00:41:30] perfect before actually diving in, right? And That's what I did with my coaching business. I had to have everything lined up.

  I had to have the planning, the website, the, this, the programs that this, and the, that, and I kept working towards that. So you don't feel like you're procrastinating cause you're still planning or organizing or doing something, everything, but actually launching. So it could even go back to the podcast. I learned from my coaching, my coaching launch.

  In a sense that I just dove into the podcast without having expectations. And guess what? [00:42:00] It allows you to take it where it needs to go. It allows you to then just go with the flow, and then see like, okay, how can I. Bring it to a place that it needs to be and it happens naturally and organically and less forced and less rigid.

  Instead of staying on plan and staying on like this one path, like let's veer right and let's detour left and like what else can we do to bring it to where it naturally wants to go and not resisting that.

  Jess: We call that Procrasta planning.

  Sabrina: Procrasta planning, I love [00:42:30] it.

  Jess: Because that's, or productive procrastination, yeah, that, I am, excellent, I just need that one more certification, that one more workshop, that one more book to read, oh my gosh, I read so much, and so I'm always like, oh, what more can I learn about this before I start talking or doing?

  I find that especially in A lot of the adults I work with, it's the same kind of thing. Well, if I just read this one more thing or, and so we're, we're keeping ourselves like, cause this feels like action, but it's not actually taking action and doing the things that are big and scary.

  Sabrina: Absolutely. [00:43:00] Yeah.

  Jess: Actually, that brings us full circle. Cause weren't we just talking about procrastinating, hitting record when We started recording? Well done. I love this. Okay. If you wanted the audience to remember one thing from today's episode, One tidbit to take away to say, Oh, that episode of Sabrina was amazing.

  Here's what I remember. What would it be?

  Sabrina: Go for it. Don't be afraid to just try. It doesn't have to be perfect. Shift your mindset to tell yourself what can you learn from the experience, but don't hold back from at least [00:43:30] trying. Give yourself that opportunity.

  Jess: I love it. For a second when you said go for it, I was like, wait, no, you're telling me what the tip for the listeners, not me! 

  Sabrina: You, yeah. . Yeah.

  Jess: Yeah, what are you taking away from

  this, Jess? I'm taking away that I made a new friend. I love this. Ah, what a great conversation. Friends, listening I really hope that these are little tidbits that you'll take with you as you go.

  Again, listening, we're usually multitasking and doing other things, but think about this later. Think about confidence as a skill to be built instead of, like, I have to have a confidence [00:44:00] before I take action. Okay, some fun little questions before we wrap up. if you could pick one food to eat every day for the rest of your life, what would it be?

  Sabrina: One,

  Jess: One.

  Sabrina: I love sushi.

  So I do eat fish. I mentioned I'm vegan, but I'm pescatarian. So I do eat fish. I

  love my sushi. gotta put labels on it.

  I know, I'm like, God, I can't just eat what I want. I have to have a label.

  Jess: I love sushi and I, anytime that I go to dinner with friends or with other family, we go to get sushi because my husband [00:44:30] doesn't like it. So it's always an opportunity. We're like, what sounds good? I'm like, can we please go get sushi?

  Sabrina: Absolutely.

  Jess: Yes. Fantastic. I feel like this might be a giveaway, but what's one activity that brings you joy and takes away attention from your body? 

  Sabrina: I mean, dance brings me joy, but if I'm not fully in my zone, if we want to call it that, and I'm looking in the mirror, then I might get caught up on what I look like. Or even, you know, as a freestyle dancer, you get caught up on what other people are seeing [00:45:00] versus how you're feeling. Unfortunately, dance is not always the answer.

  where do I feel the most present? When I just go for a walk, like mindless walk. Nowhere to go, just walking around the neighborhood. That's where I would feel like I'm not thinking about what I look like or what my body is like. I'm just walking.

  Jess: There is a book That my poor listeners have heard me just go on and on and on about. It's called The Comfort Crisis. And in part of the book, they talk about research of what being in nature can do to our mental [00:45:30] health. And even something as simple as a 20 minute neighborhood walk is a really good mental reset.

  So What is the number one book you've recommended or given as a gift?

  Sabrina: Ooh, The Mountain Is You by Brianna Wiest. I think that's how you pronounce her name. 

  Jess: Yeah. I admittedly listened to that on audiobook first. Not a good audiobook because of the amount of impactful things that are said and the takeaways. And then once I actually checked out the book from the library and read it, a lot more fantastic. Okay, [00:46:00] any holiday traditions? 

  Sabrina: Christmas dinner. I, I'm in Montreal. So Thanksgiving for us happened already. It was in October, but we do get together with the family and have Thanksgiving dinner. And then for Christmas, it's like getting together dinner. Again, everything revolves around food. And we mentioned that I think it was in my podcast where there's so many traditions or cultural connections for food that it's like, if you don't have a healthy relationship with food and what you're eating, it can cause you so [00:46:30] much unhappiness, when it's supposed to be a time of celebration and gathering and love and fun, that if you get caught up on Oh my goodness, but I'm not going to eat everything, or I'm going to eat everything, but then have to go to the gym the next day, right?

  So it's kind of like it's an opportunity to practice self love or self acceptance when it comes to what am I eating for the holidays? Because I will be eating lots of pasta, let me tell you that.

  Jess: the good foods. Okay one last question. How do you take your coffee or tea or morning beverage of choice?

  Sabrina: coffee [00:47:00] in a traditional little Italian stovetop coffee maker, so espresso with vanilla oat milk as like a latte.

  Jess: Fantastic. And then, okay. Thank you. These were such fun little questions. Where our listeners find you to learn more?

  Sabrina: I am very active on Instagram, so you can find me. My handle is DuchessSabrina, Duchess is my dance name, and my podcast Instagram is getintoflowpodcast. You can also listen to my [00:47:30] podcast on all the streaming platforms and on YouTube. And when in doubt, my website has all the information, sabrinadelduca.

  com.

  Jess: Fantastic. Thank you so much for being on, for spending two hours with me between our interviews and all the things.

  very much enjoyed this.

  Sabrina: Thank you so much, Jess.

  Jess: All right, friends. Thanks so much for listening to another episode of Sturdy Girl. We will catch you next Friday.

49. Unapologetic Eating and Body Liberation with Alissa Rumsey, Dietitian and Author

Join Jess as she chats with Alissa Rumsey, a registered dietitian, intuitive eating counselor, and author of 'Unapologetic Eating: Make Peace with Food and Transform Your Life'. Alyssa shares her journey into nutrition, starting from her high school years filled with diet culture to discovering intuitive eating and recognizing the social justice components of her work. They discuss the process of unlearning diet culture, the impact of allowing and feeling emotions, and the concept of power through collective liberation. The conversation emphasizes awareness, mindfulness, and the deeper connections between food relationships and self-empowerment. Alyssa's book is structured in four parts: Fixing, Allowing, Feeling, and Growing, aimed at guiding readers from self-compassion to unapologetic living.

Learn more about Alissa HERE.

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• Full Transcript

  Jess: [00:00:00] Hello friends, and welcome back to another episode of Sturdy Girl. A, another wonderful interview this morning with Alyssa Rumsey. She is a registered dietitian, certified intuitive eating counselor, and author of the book, Unapologetic Eating, make peace with food and transform your life. Alyssa, hello.

  Thank you for joining us.

  Alissa: Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

  Jess: Alyssa was kind enough to send me a copy of her book, and oh my gosh, there is so much resonance of your book, and [00:00:30] Sturdy girl and how much like we talk about self compassion about relationship with self.

  , this is perfect. So thank you so much for being on. I'm, I'm really stoked for this conversation.

  Alissa: Yeah. Thank you. And I love, I love hearing that. It never gets old hearing feedback about the book and how it resonates. So I appreciate it.

  Jess: Can you tell me a little bit more about how, okay. One I want to know about. you decided to write a book but also I'd love to hear how you got into, I'm going to say like the nutrition space, broadly [00:01:00] speaking being a dietitian all of that. I, I just want to open the floor to you to share.

  Alissa: Yeah. So I'll start there. Cause I've been a dietitian for. 16 years at this point. And my interest in nutrition and the term wellness was not really around 20 plus years ago, but when I was in high school, but kind of in nutrition and health started, there was sort of two pieces. One is that I was in high school, Was someone who was a really active [00:01:30] kid, played a ton of sports, never thought about what I ate or what my body looked like until I hit puberty.

  Which as I've learned is a very common experience for folks. Especially people socialized as women. And so I hit puberty and around the same time, stopped playing one of my sports and gained weight and what I now know is a very normal and natural and needed weight gain. But at the time it felt like, oh my God, like my body was changing and kind of panicking about that.

  And I was [00:02:00] introduced to the concept of dieting in high school. And it sort of also coincided with two other things. One is that I was in a biology class where we started learning about digestion. And I found it fascinating. I just found it a very like science brain. I love science. And I found the science of it very interesting about, you know, depending what we eat and like how things are digested and how our body uses them and all this stuff.

  So there was definitely like that component. But then I was also starting to work out at a gym and befriended a trainer. [00:02:30] who maybe did not have the best nutrition advice, especially for a teenage, a teenager. But I started like going down the rabbit hole of learning about nutrition on my own. And long story short, my foray into dieting as a teen ended up in disordered eating.

  Which at the time I did not, I see that looking back at the time, it just was like, oh no, this is healthy, quote unquote. So I developed some of my own Disordered eating patterns, and that continued into college. But that was what prompted me to want to be a dietician, was my [00:03:00] experience in there, and also I got a lot of attention for being the quote unquote healthy eater in my friend group, and right, this was like the early 2000s, so it was a bit, like that wasn't really a thing in high school.

  And so I was getting this like positive attention and feedback for body changes and for being like, so healthy, quote unquote and I decided to go into nutrition as a career path. And then. I feel like, again, just I do have a lot of body privilege and so while my disordered [00:03:30] eating continued through college and then once I graduated and got my first job working as a dietitian just through the circumstances I was in, I was moved to New York City, it was in my early 20s, I was working in a clinical setting with a lot of other dieticians around my age all of whom actually had pretty good relationships to food and like the New York City food scene and just the excitement of being in this new city kind of slowly over the course of a couple of years, I sort of naturally became less rigid around food [00:04:00] and sort of without So.

  Any, like, not purposely trying to heal my relationship with food, but became more in tune with my body. Um, I had started doing yoga, and so, yeah, it was just kind of all sort of moving in that direction. But I, myself, as a clinician, did not learn about intuitive eating until maybe, like, eight years into my career.

  And that really made a huge shift both because I could see in my life, how I had kind of naturally gotten to that place and I could see how the work I had been doing with clients was [00:04:30] harmful in a lot of ways and not really supporting people in their health by being more prescriptive and more, you know, rules around food and things like that.

  So yeah, my discovery was intuitive eating and then from there. Health at Every Size, and from there more like the social justice components of this work and how it dovetails with that. And then, yeah, that accumulated in writing the book a couple of years ago, which really encompasses all of those things.

  Jess: that journey of [00:05:00] up being a child, like adolescent in the early 2000s. Same. The exposure to dieting right around the time of hitting puberty because we naturally gain weight and it being like, here's a way to control that, right? So many people resonate with that, as like that being a very common experience.

  But then using that, going into the nutrition space, all of those things I love your tie in at the very end where you're like, this journey of nutrition. Okay, [00:05:30] here is intuitive eating and how this is going to change how I help. But then going all the way to like the social justice piece is huge.

  I mean and it's really rad to see how your career and focus has evolved over time too. Yeah, thanks for sharing that, like, the entire journey. I have had a couple of other dieticians on the show over the last year and it's interesting to me, they both had similar stories to you of that introduction to dieting in high [00:06:00] school or even middle school.

  And then how interesting our, our relationship with food and the interest in food and then getting through, like you said, yours was more post college of just naturally overcoming a lot of those disordered eating behaviors. But for some of them, it was like a confrontation of like, holy crap, I have been viewing this so wrong.

  Or being able to help someone clinically and then not be able to look in the mirror and see like, oh. This isn't how I, I want to treat my own body. [00:06:30] that's fantastic. was there any kind of impetus to unapologetic eating of like, all right, it's time to write a book. Was it just wanting to reach more people and broaden that scope?

  Or

  Alissa: Good question. So I feel like I got very lucky timing wise. So I had been writing, I'd been blogging on my own website and been doing some writing for few different, like, media outlets, and there's a publishing company, so this was Towards the end of 2019. And so Intuitive Eating was like [00:07:00] just starting to kind of come a little bit more into the lexicon with like social media and things like that.

  It had sort of been flying under the radar, even though it's something, right, I mean, Intuitive Eating, the framework, something Evelyn Triboli and Elish Raish developed in the 90s, the 1990s. So it's been around and evolved over time. But like 2019, it was like starting to become a little more like Oh, yeah, I've heard of that.

  I'm not really sure what it is, but I've heard of it. Like, if you would ask people and so this publisher one of the executives in the publishing company. was just like [00:07:30] introduced the concept and A was like, wow, this is really interesting. And then also B from a business perspective, they saw, I think it was like some media outlet named it like, which is kind of ironic, right?

  The like top diet of like 2020 or like a top diet trend for like going into 2020. So they're like, Oh, we want it. They were writing a lot of, the publisher was publishing a lot of like diet and recipe books. And they're like, We want to publish some books about intuitive eating. And so they actually reached out to me because they started like researching and my writing came up.

  And at the time I [00:08:00] wasn't, I'd always thought like, Oh, maybe someday writing a book, but I like didn't have a proposal. I was like, not in a place where I'm like, Oh, I want to do this now. But they reached out and it's actually funny. I almost. Didn't think it was a real thing at first. I almost didn't even respond to the email.

  Luckily, I did.

  Jess: you're like, it's spam. This is spam.

  Alissa: I was like, this doesn't seem real. And even going into the phone call, I still have a phone call, I did not prep at all because I like still thought it was kind of like some scammy thing. And then, you know, was having this conversation and they were like, What would you want to write a book about?

  And again, I had [00:08:30] not prepped at all for this, and it's so wild to me, and I think this just speaks to, like, the stuff we have inside of us that's, like, more subconscious. I popped out, like, a two sentence book pitch that ended up, like, being the full backbone of the book, and I had, like, not really, like, consciously thought about it.

  But it was like very clearly in me and they were like, that sounds great. Let's do it. And, you know, negotiate a contract and all that stuff. So it really fell into my lap because I had been doing writing and was like putting myself out there [00:09:00] online but I got really lucky of, you know, not having to do the traditional like proposal and agent and stuff like that.

  Jess: Good job for taking a chance on a potentially scam email.

  Alissa: I know, thank goodness. I was like, thank goodness I responded and set up a phone call and I was very close to just ignoring that.

  Jess: also the fact that you. Off the cuff, had your two second pitch, and here you are. there. It was there all along. Okay, so how did you decide on the title, Unapologetic Eating? Because I know you said it, like, [00:09:30] it helps the reader make peace with food, transform their lives as a result. It's like your, your focus within the book.

  So tell me about that.

  Alissa: So that's another really interesting story

  Jess: I love stories! This is my favorite!

  Alissa: so when we planned on the book and signed the contract, and I didn't have a title yet, and they're like, that's fine, we'll figure that out down the road, like, don't worry about it, so it was some, like, untitled thing to start with.

  And I think I had been using the word unapologetic in, like, I think it was maybe in my [00:10:00] social media bio, I think I, like, occasionally used that. About like being unapologetic or something to that effect. But I had no, I had actually done no thinking about the book title. And a couple months into me writing the book, and they had some of my chapters, And the book publisher reached out again and they're like, Hey, we've been tossing some ideas around the office.

  What do you think of the title? Unapologetic eating? And I was like, love it. that sounds great. I was like, yeah, that like really a lot. And I didn't even like put together that title. I had been using that word. So it was really [00:10:30] interesting. And then, so this is in 2020. I wrote my book in 2020, which was an experience.

   So this was in 2020. they're like, how about unapologetic eating? And I'm like, yeah, that sounds great. Like really aligns and definitely like we're going with the book. And I see that really dovetailing well. Fast forward to like, Manuscript is finished, we're like doing the final edits, like designing the cover, all this stuff.

  It's like maybe fall of 2020. And I find this journal of mine that I had kept a year prior, fall of [00:11:00] 2019, I had been at a retreat for a week. And one of the things we had done at the retreat, and I had like kept a journal, had not opened it in a year, like hadn't even thought about it, and that was even before, this was like pre the publisher even reaching out, and one of the activities we did during the retreat was this a Japanese word, it's called ikigai, and it's sort of like, The best way I know how to describe it is like a brainstorming type of activity.

  And I was like, oh, I remember I found this journal. I'm like, oh, I think I had some, like, good ideas when I did this activity. I can't even [00:11:30] remember what they were. Let me, like, flip through and try to, like, find them. One of them was a book called Unapologetic Eating. Yes, this was, like, pre publisher, like, pre everything.

  I was like, a book called this, which I had promptly forgot about, had not thought about. And then, so just again, one of those very wild, and like, proof to me that like, this was in me, it had been brewing even though it wasn't a conscious thing. And so I'd been like, putting out enough of that that obviously the publisher picked up on it, and we're like, oh, how about we call it this?

  And I'm like, yeah, that [00:12:00] sounds cool, and then like, six months later, find this journal, and I was like, oh my god, I had this idea, over a year ago.

  Jess: I am not a religious person, necessarily. I've become more, I would say, like, woo woo in the last couple of years, but just how you're talking about this whole, how it all came to be is very much like the universe intervening in a way, you know, we're unapologetic eating, the fact that that was something you wrote about, and then here you are. and having the, the publishers be the one that are like, Hey we actually plucked this out of [00:12:30] your subconscious. I don't know if you knew that, but

  Alissa: I know, right? I mean, it is really wild. I, too, have become more woo in recent years and it was still just one of those things of like, okay, this is, yeah, universe pointing me in a direction, for 

  Jess: yeah, okay. On the topic of woo for a second, I was so against being any kind of woo for so long. And I was like, Oh, that's a bunch of BS. And there are so many things in the last couple of years where I'm like, okay, okay, okay. I get it. There's some validity in the woo. It just kind of stares you in the face [00:13:00] multiple times over.

  Alissa: Totally. Totally. Yeah, I've had like a handful of experiences where it's like, okay, I'm still, like, very science brained, love research and all of that, but I'm also, like, there's some things that we just, like, can't really explain, and it is, I'm also not religious, wasn't, like, raised religious but yeah, it has been something that I've, and again, just seeing some of these synchronicities come through, it's, like, okay.

  Can't make this stuff

  up. 

  Jess: I'm also very science brained. It's interesting. So, working in healthcare and just that, like, that is how my brain [00:13:30] functions. And then my husband is a writer. And so he has the very, like, story brain other side of things. Like, everything is a story worth telling, and that's how our beliefs come about.

  And I'm over here like, show me the science. And he's like, Jess, 

  sometimes 

  Alissa: data. 

  Jess: sometimes that's not how things work. the longer we've been together, it's almost a decade now, but like the, the longer we're together, I'm like, okay, I see what you mean now. 

  Alissa: Oh that's nice. Like having some of that balance is nice. Cause yeah, my, it [00:14:00] sounds like my brain works very similar to yours as well.

  Jess: it's nice at times and it's maddening at times because I'm like, okay, we're building a podcast and he helps me a lot on the back end with things, helps edit do a lot of that. And I'm over here like creating strategy and looking at the analytics and the downloads and the this and that and he's like, how about you tell a better story, Jess?

  I'm like, for real? Story, okay, like it's helpful. It's a very like, creative abrasion And it's been interesting navigating that when you're like in a partnership with someone

  Alissa: Yeah, for sure. 

  Jess: [00:14:30] Okay, I want to talk more about Getting inside the book a little bit From the very beginning, like your introduction, there's a quote in there that's super powerful.

  You said, As my clients question their beliefs about food and dieting and weight, they started to question all sorts of other thoughts, feelings, and beliefs. So this seems to me like we're talking like diet culture, anti fatness beliefs, someone feeling poorly about their body, right? So this relationship with self, this body image it doesn't all exist.

  In a vacuum, like it's not all on its own. Can you speak a little bit [00:15:00] more on this?

  Alissa: Yeah, absolutely. Because I think this was a huge kind of realization for me and like puzzle pieces fitting together for me because when I first, I mentioned, you know, finding kind of intuitive eating partway into my career and I'm like, Oh, I'm going to help people. Have a better relationship with food, like, be able to eat what they want and be connected to body cues and not, like, feel guilty.

  Like, that's what I thought the work was going to be. Which, yes, that was part of the outcome that my clients [00:15:30] ended up seeing, but I had some really amazing people that I'm just, like, so grateful for, like, trusted me, especially in my, like, early days of, you know, kind of operating from, through this lens, who really showed me how, well, A, that, you know, really realizing that someone's relationship with food and their behaviors with food and their, how they feel about their body, wasn't actually the problem to be fixed, right?

  Like, so much of, like, body image research, for example, which of course, [00:16:00] historically was done by white men is about like, well, how can you fix how you feel about your body? Right? Like, that's what we need to do. And that's what, you know, going into this work, was what I was thinking, like, very at the level of the individual.

  And what I realized pretty quickly, was that what's presenting as this, like, individual problem with food, or with body, or body image, is A, much more deeply rooted, and B, has like, very little to do, you know, certainly yes, there are things on the individual level and work and [00:16:30] unpacking we can do, and so much of it is this response to experiences we've had and this conditioning we've had culturally.

  And so that to me was like, this huge aha moment, of which again, There are people who have been doing this work for decades and decades but it, for me, it was like, Oh, again, as someone with immense privilege who really hadn't dealt with a lot of like discrimination or stigma or bias it to me felt like this big aha [00:17:00] moment because I had never really experienced it.

  And so it was sort of like the blinders coming off and being like, Oh, wait, this idea of diet culture. It's not just like diet culture like it didn't just like come out of nowhere it's actually there are these like deeper cultural roots You know the work of dr. Sabrina strings who wrote fearing the black body was like so Invaluable to me and you know in that book just heavily researched, which I love But she talks a lot about how these beliefs about body [00:17:30] size and what bodies were quote unquote good and what ones were not good were specifically created to keep black people oppressed and not in their power.

  And so I think for me, like, learning from people like Dr. Strings and these other, like, activists and educators and people in the fat acceptance space, Really, like, all the pieces came together, and then I was seeing this with my clients, too, that, like, we were starting this work about, like, they're coming to me, like, oh, I'm just tired of dieting, I'm tired of, like, you know, I really want to, [00:18:00] like, work on my relationship to food and my body.

  And so, kind of realizing, like, yes, there's a lot of work we can do as individuals, but then there's also this, like, huge societal piece that a lot of the individual work is, like, putting those pieces together, taking the blame off ourselves and, like, putting it back on these cultural standards and I think the other piece is, Two that really stood out to me from the get go was like, like I said before, I thought it was like, oh, people are going to like eat a burger and like feel [00:18:30] okay about it and move on with their life, which again is what happens with my clients versus like continuing to think about it or feel guilty or feel ashamed or questioning themselves, second guessing.

  But the other things I was seeing were like, I mean, I can, this is like years ago and I can distinctly remember some of these people of like, A client of mine who she was in like her 50s or 60s, and had been dieting most of her life, and she one day was like, I have so much more space in my life now that, like, this brain space isn't [00:19:00] being taken up, and she's like, What can I do with it?

  And she was like, so we were like, this is exciting. What can you do with it? And so it's like, right at that stage of her life, like finding new hobbies and finding like, like making more connections. I had another client who again, was really coming in to work with me from the food perspective, which that shifted.

  But then also you know, I remember this like huge win was one day she came in and she was like, I had sex with my partner with my shirt off and the lights on. She's like, I haven't done that in [00:19:30] decades. And I was just like, I mean, I get chills like thinking about that now. So these were these like, like her partnership was improving.

  You know, there was also someone who, whose partner like loved to cook. And that was how he showed love. And she, because of like the dieting and her worries about weight, like. Usually said no. And she's like, Oh my gosh, I can say yes now. And like, he loves that. And I can like accept his love that way. And so it was just like all this really cool things that I was seeing that we were starting with.

  [00:20:00] someone's relationship to food, but sort of, as I realized, when you start to trust yourself more around food, you then trust yourself in all these other areas of your life too, which was just so cool to see.

  Jess: It's not just about the food. I mean, and that's something too, within the growth and, Yeah, within the growth of Sturdy Girl is we started out with this message of I want to talk about healthy body image is where we started and talking about the concept of physical and mental resilience.

  And over time, as we jumped into [00:20:30] conversations, as I was jumping into more of the body image research and learning where a lot of the origins of body positivity came from, too. So similar to kind of how your research changed, it was realizing like, oh, Body image and the way we feel about our bodies is not actually about our bodies.

  The food we eat, it's not actually about just the food we eat. It's unpacking all the layers underneath to realize, okay, how did I get here to have these emotions around food or these reactions? How did I get here to [00:21:00] feel? To feel that I needed to make my body look this certain way. When we look at society, when we look at the media, when we look at the history of how we even got to this place of women should be this size.

  how did we get here? And that understanding is just, it's really profound because I think about Your space as a dietitian the conversations, people do come to you and they're like, help me with my relationship with food. And you're like, all right, sit down and buckle up because uh, it's way more than just the [00:21:30] food.

  We're going to change your life. 

  Alissa: and you know, for me, it's been such a rewarding journey and experience, like certainly as a clinician, but also as just a human, because like the work that my clients do is like so much more expansive than what I was trained in. Right. Like so much, I would have been out of this field. Right.

  Yeah. Ages ago, if I was doing sort of the traditional path of a dietitian in the nutrition space, and this work is so expansive and [00:22:00] it's so life changing. I mean, even just, the like food piece, like the shifting relationship of food piece is incredibly life changing for so many people, but it like just always goes beyond that.

  And so it's just been, yeah, really amazing to, to be able to witness and to, to work with people who put their trust in me to like lead them on this journey that is not linear and requires like huge leaps of faith and requires. As I'm sure you talk about on the podcast, like, just swimming [00:22:30] upstream from the mainstream cultural beliefs around bodies and weight and health and nutrition.

  But yeah, the outcomes and the life changes are just so profound. And, you know, I think, too, like, so much of this, to me, comes back to sort of the, the liberatory part of this work right, when we're like dieting, trying to make our bodies smaller, like we're like actually making ourselves smaller, like our personalities and our world and all these things, right?

  And that's usually [00:23:00] not conscious. Um, And usually for most people that's been going on since they were young. And so it's hard to even like see that. And the, Liberation that can come and like freedom that can come from like stepping outside of that box of like, this is what I have to do. Like I said, that client was like, and I've heard this from so many people, I have so much time now, what do I do with it?

  And just being able to see people like step into their power more. Because again, going back to what I mentioned about the roots of all of this and, yeah, if [00:23:30] we're dieting, trying to make our bodies smaller, spending a ton of like time and money and energy on doing that, what do we not have time to do?

  Right? We don't have time to like, push back against those in power. We don't have time to do like so many other things which is the point and how, diet culture really is a, Result of these systems of oppression.

  Jess: 100%. There is a book called the body liberation project. Chrissy King 

  Alissa: Yes. 

  Jess: about this as well. It's fantastic. I was just thinking just [00:24:00] the, the piece of, oh my god, I have so much more time and energy and space in my brain. That is one of the main missions of Sturdy Girl, is helping to shift the focus away from body and appearance and onto living.

  The big red life you want like that is main message because it's true when you start I'm gonna say unlearning A lot of these things, you recognize how much energy you were giving to your food choices, to how you acted, to how you dress to your body [00:24:30] size, to how people were perceiving your body, how it, you know, there's so many pieces of that, that suddenly, as you start doing, when I say doing the work in a very broad sense, because there's so many focuses as we could talk about, but When you start actually noticing those things and recognize like, Oh my gosh, I have so much more capacity for other things.

  Yeah. Picking up hobbies, having sex with the lights on. Like those are huge. that's amazing.

  Alissa: yeah, I think too. I'm thinking about as well. This client [00:25:00] who I remember her saying to me like some version of like, as she was building trust in herself to make these food decisions She was like, then it started to shift into like, well, yeah, how am I spending my time?

  What do I enjoy doing? Right? Because we start with food of like, okay, do you enjoy what you're eating? Like, how does this feel in your body? Right? Making that connection. And then she was like, yeah, it started to shift to like how I was spending my time. And then, you know, started noticing like all these other shoulds about like, oh, well you like [00:25:30] should.

  get married, or you should have a kid. And now she's like, I don't have to if I don't want to. Like I can make a decision about that. And so sort of like her zooming out and like all these things that she thought were like, this is like the path. This is what you have to do. This is what's necessary. She was like, Oh wait, no, if I want to, absolutely.

  But I don't have to and I can like make a choice and and how powerful is that right this like being able to like really because I think a lot of us would be like, yeah, I can make a choice right this like [00:26:00] intellectual part of ourselves, but then to be able to like embody that. And really sort of, you know, it's impossible to like fully extricate ourselves and our decisions from reconditioning and this culture we live in and just that questioning of like, yeah, how do I feel about this is so powerful.

  Jess: Just even giving yourself the ability to ask, what do I want? What do I actually want? I feel like that's one of those things that again, the conditioning piece that we like naturally go, Oh, I don't know what I want. like with food, [00:26:30] the very base of that, because we've had all these shoulds for how we should eat or shouldn't eat or all of those pieces, and then suddenly to be like, well, what do I want?

  Or talking about, you know, I work with clients on like running and lifting goals. So again, they come to me for strength training or for running a marathon. And then we get to the, the underlayer of, it's not actually just about the training. There's so many other pieces that go into that. And so it's like, well, what do you actually want?

  And they're like, no one's ever asked me that before. I don't know. 

  Alissa: [00:27:00] And I think the I don't know can be really powerful. It can also feel scary of like, well, I don't know, but that is an opening into starting to explore that more because, yeah, you know, we're often just like on this path for whatever reason, like the cultural conditioning, the like family of origin and things we learned there, like, just the way so much of our culture functions of like you do this and then you do this and then you do this and taking that pause being like, wait, what is it that I want?

  And like, I don't know is [00:27:30] a place we can start.

  Jess: I've found that for some people it's easier to start with what don't I want. And then starting there, like, okay, it's not this, it's not this, it's not this. 

  Alissa: Yeah, and I think the like, I don't know, that can be really scary. That can be really scary because we live in this culture that in a lot of ways like rewards people who like know what they want, quote unquote. And so the, I don't know, can be a really scary thing.

  And I think that's a piece. For a lot of people, you know, we end up leaning into like, well, let me just follow this path, then at [00:28:00] least I feel like I have some control. When in reality, we have very little control over a lot of things in our life, but that can be a very scary thing to come to terms with and to accept.

  And so the, I don't know, can be really scary. And, and this is what I say to all my clients, like it does take a leap of faith to be like, I don't know. And I need to like experiment and just see. And like the freedom that is on the other side of that is just so amazing.

  Jess: It's learning to sit in the discomfort of not knowing and then [00:28:30] figuring out what to do with it. And that's, we don't like being uncomfortable. So that's, yeah, that's a big part of it. Okay. we've managed to segue so much in this. I love it so much. I want to come back to talking about your book for a few more minutes.

  Just, you had broken the book down. I was like, I just, I want the audience to get a little taste of all of this so that they feel the need to go check out your book because I enjoyed it so much and gained so much from it. So, Broad scope, your book is broken down into four parts. So you have fixing, allowing, feeling, and [00:29:00] growing.

  And I know kind of our conversation has naturally touched on little bits in here, but can you walk me through these parts? I'm just, like envisioning this as someone listening to be like, Oh my gosh, this sounds like exactly what I need. Just by hearing about it.

  Alissa: Yeah. Yeah. Happy to walk you through. And I'll also say that, you know, when I was thinking about the structure of this book and what I wanted to cover really, I wanted it to be really practical. So I wanted to be educational, but then also practical of, it is a book, but there's also a lot of reflection prompts and like workbook type exercises.

  So [00:29:30] that people can not just like intellectually understand, but start to embody this and practice this because that's what it is. It's, there's, you know, most of my clients come to me and they're like, okay, intellectually, this makes so much sense and it really seems to align. But like, how the heck do I do it?

  How do I get from where I am here to like what you're talking about? 

  Jess: the knowledge action gap, right? Like, yeah, or the binge readers like me who are like, I'm just going to binge read this and like, not do the workbook stuff when that's where the magic happens.

  Alissa: yes, [00:30:00] yes. yes. yes. and I get that because I often read books that way too. And in the introduction I really say, like, I hope you can take your time with this. Like, maybe you're one of those people that likes to read the whole thing and then go back to the pieces that resonated. But really my hope was that yeah, kind of walking through, like, from, This process of going from trying to quote unquote fix yourself, which you know, most people drawn to this book are folks have been trying to quote unquote fix themselves, maybe from a variety of ways, but certainly from a way around like dieting or like food manipulation [00:30:30] to try to like change your body or change, you know, kind of things like that.

  So kind of this process of going from trying to fix yourself and change yourself into like a more unapologetic eating, like being able, unapologetic, intuitive eating, to then also living that way as well. And so, starting out with fixing. So that section of the book has some educational pieces around, like, history of diet culture and, like, this zoom out lens of, like, the history of beauty [00:31:00] ideals.

  I talk more about, like, weight science, why dieting and weight control measures just, like, don't seem to work. I talk more about like why weight and health aren't as closely connected or linked as we've been taught. And then I also in this section spend more time talking about like how you can explore your own history with food in your body and naming some of the many things that can affect your relationship with food in your body.

  So starting to like reflect on where your food beliefs, where your body beliefs came [00:31:30] from and how they've impacted your life. And then the second part is allowing. So this is really where it's like, okay, I've started to like do some unpacking and unlearning. The allowing section is really taking some action and like stepping away.

  From for a lot of folks, it's like the dieting or food restriction or food rules while building awareness of like all the ways in which they show up. Cause it's generally much more insidious than we realize it's not as simple as just like, well, I'll stop this diet that I'm on because like all that stuff [00:32:00] is still integrated in our brain.

  So there's a lot on like cultivating awareness, mindfulness of our experience. And. then how to start to sit with the discomfort or the thoughts and feelings that this brings up. In allowing, I also teach a little bit more about the intuitive eating framework and about some other kind of ways that you can start to connect back to your inner wisdom.

  Then the next part is feeling. So when you stop trying to fix yourself and begin to [00:32:30] allow yourself in your body to just be. Lots of thoughts and feelings tend to arise and bubble up to the surface and often for a lot of folks, like, those are ones that consciously or unconsciously Dieting have been suppressing, right?

  Like as a coping mechanism. So dieting, and I talk about this in the book, how dieting is often utilized as a coping mechanism. And so in the feeling section, I really try to guide you through the process of sitting with those feelings, sitting with the discomfort, as you named, that absolutely will [00:33:00] arise in this process.

  So we talk about self care and coping and community care, self care. We talk about things like body respect self compassion and also talk about how you can start redefining your relationship with your body. Like what What might that look like? If it's not this kind of like at war with my body, like, what might it look like?

  What might I want it to look like? Um, And the last part is growing, which is honestly my, my favorite part of the book. And some of what we've talked about already, like in this process of unlearning and [00:33:30] unpacking, you then get to explore and learn and define this new path for yourself or these new beliefs or new truths for yourself.

  And you really get to. Get to know yourself better and do more, like, self exploration and self discovery and, you know, be more connected, not just from, like, a hunger fullness cue perspective, but be more connected and, like, living in your body, more embodied. So this section has talks about embodiment practices.

  It talks about practices you [00:34:00] can do. Like I have you know, a section on like really honing in on your values, which can be such amazing guideposts. I have these self discovery self connection questions that borrowed with permission from a friend of mine, Hannah Jung, about, yeah, just starting to get to know yourself and ask yourself these questions where we might not know the answer.

  But really starting to be like, okay, how do I know when it's like, A fuck yes, and how do I know when it's not? Like, how does that feel in my body? So really, like, getting into our bodies. [00:34:30] And so, figuring out, instead of all these things you've been taught you're supposed to be like, or do, or look like, figuring out, like, what is it that I truly want instead?

  So really moving into that, like, unapologetic living.

  Jess: Amazing. All of the things like this every single one of these like when I was reading your book and I'm like underlining parts of it and I was like I kept leaning over to my husband because I read like before bed and I was like this is exactly what the mission of sturdy girl is this part two and then I'm like a couple nights later and I'm [00:35:00] like oh my gosh you talk about embodiment too and like using values to guide your actions you talk about like so many of these areas and I was like oh my god I can't wait This is so great.

  no, I mean, I think that all of these areas where someone's going to start reading this book to help their relationship with food and they're going to come out of it being like, shit, I got a better relationship with myself. There's so 

  much more there. and you're tying to, I mean, I could spend hours just talking about this.

  journey of improving our relationship with self. [00:35:30] But one other question I want to talk about in the book, and then I'd love to get like maybe your top tips for just overarching if we were going to start working on our relationship with food or self. But you talk about the very end of your book, power.

  Embracing your power. And I loved how, yes, it is stepping into figuring out who the hell you are and what the hell you want Without all of the pressures of these things that have been ingrained in us. Sure. But what else? Like how how is that? Like what does Stepping into your power mean to you if you want to [00:36:00] expound on that a little bit but also in the sense of know what we talked about with a lot of the background of Why women are pushed into this box of being smaller and certain body types and those, like, how is it different than how power is traditionally thought of in society?

  Alissa: and again, speaking from someone who lives in the U S in kind of most Western societies, power is like very, it's like power over another person. Like, you know, you have power, if you have power over another person or people or group of people there's this [00:36:30] great interview with Sonya Renee Taylor on Brene Brown's podcast.

  And Sonia, is talking about the hierarchy of bodies and power in our culture. And she's talking about it as a ladder of like, okay, we're all trying to like climb up this ladder of, of power. But like, if you think about climbing up a ladder, to get higher, if there's other people on the ladder, you literally have to like climb over them or like push, they have to go down the ladder for you to go up.

  as an aside, one of my favorite parts of the interview is uh, Renee being like, [00:37:00] well, how do we, like, help people get up the ladder? And Sonya's like, no, no, no, no, no. We knock the ladder, like, the fuck over. Like, we're, like, getting rid of the ladder. And I'm like, yes! I love Sonya Renee Taylor's work. you know, power is traditionally in our culture thought of this way, and I talk a bit in the book and this is not, my own idea, this again has been talked about for decades by different activists, but power really being this more collective thing, and like, okay, if I can [00:37:30] access my power if I can liberate myself from these different systems of oppression that are designed to keep me and other people down, what can I do with that to not just help myself, but to like, help the collective?

  And so really power in this more collective way, not just liberation of like, me, the individual. Visual and me feeling better and self. But then where do I go from there? And how do we, you know, use that power to liberate the [00:38:00] collective, which will also help us to right. So it's, it's really thinking about power in a different way.

  way. Because until, you know, this is something you see talked about a lot in body liberation spaces of like, until all bodies are liberated, until all people are liberated and free from these oppressive systems, none of us are ever fully free, right? Like we still have to, I might like individually have liberated myself from these systems, but I still have to exist in these systems.

  And there still [00:38:30] might be things I have to do that are not values aligned because I have to exist in these systems. Like one tiny example of that is I'm thinking of a former client who worked in a corporate setting. And she was like, okay, Alyssa, like I've really done a lot of questioning around like makeup and, you know, like beauty standards and like feel much more confident without makeup.

  But if I go into the office without makeup on, I'm going to be treated differently. And that's going to like, affect my like, chances at promotion. And that's not just in her head. Like there's, and I [00:39:00] talk about this a little bit in the book, there's actual research around that. That women, not men, but women who are not as quote, well groomed make less money.

  I think that's also where it's like, okay, we can do all this individual work, but then how do we extrapolate this? Because we still end up having to live in these systems. So really power at like the collective.

  Jess: I think that's fantastic. And especially too, for me as a straight, white, able bodied, straight sized, inherently very privileged human, this part of [00:39:30] the work, if you will, is something that the longer that I'm doing this podcast and the longer that I do my own work on body image and my relationship with myself, the more you recognize the need for the work of the collective to help others.

  Like there, there is a sense of responsibility that comes from that.

   and that's kind of one of those things that I, the longer that I am doing this, the more I'm like, okay, how can we get more involved? How can we shift and help and change and unrelated [00:40:00] necessarily from like this big spanse.

  But I just connected with a local school to start creating some curriculum around like, Workshops for kids relationships with themselves, so I'm really excited. So, one of the counselors of a high school here in Portland we've just started the communications and all of that. I have a business mentor that has a PhD in like curriculum design and behavior change who I'm like utilizing for some of this stuff.

  But that is the area that excites me the [00:40:30] most within this is like going to the younger generation and having these conversations so that there's, you know, we talked a little bit about unlearning earlier. It's a lot less unlearning if you're, you're coming into these vulnerable times, kind of like going all the way back to the beginning where we talked about, Hey, it was like middle school, high school, suddenly when we're like, Oh my God, puberty is insane.

  And maybe I need to try dieting here. Let's have this conversation about our bodies and our feelings about our bodies and society and all of that. So. I'm terrified to create [00:41:00] for this group, but I'm also like, this is so much a realization of a vision that I've had for Sturdy Girl since the beginning. So it was really

  Alissa: That's amazing. That's so, so cool. And sounds like such an awesome opportunity. And yeah, you know, as you were talking about that, I'm thinking about Kelly deals, who's a feminist, like business and marketing coach, something she often says cause this can feel really overwhelming. Like, okay, how do I, as an individual, like affect change?

  And I think Kelly will say, she's like, we all have our place at the [00:41:30] wall. Like, we can't take down this big wall. by ourselves. We need lots and lots of people doing lots of different tasks, right? So, like, working with youth, people advocating on a policy level, like, right? We need like, what is your place at the wall?

  And what are the things you can do? And I think starting in your community is, like, such, right? Because, like, I think a lot of our brains go to, like, the big picture. And it's like, yes. And how can you start in your community and with the people that you know and make an impact [00:42:00] like at that level? So I love it. That sounds like such an awesome opportunity for you. 

  Jess: Thank you. Yeah. I really appreciate it. Like simultaneously excited and terrified. it's so true though, what you said, we do, when we start to recognize the big picture of this, it is overwhelming because you're like, all right, I want to be involved in the community and advocacy work and this and this and this and this and that's not the point in this.

  It's finding again, yeah, where you are at the wall. I like that. I haven't heard that before. 

  Alissa: I'm just gonna say Kelly talks to about like, yeah, we also need people like making food for the [00:42:30] people that are trying to take down the wall and like, right, like, there's all these ways that we can support the collective that can seem really small, but like, that is what is needed.

  It does not have to be these big sweeping things. and I'll also add to that. there are like seasons of life when you might feel more like you have the bandwidth or capacity to do this and seasons when you don't. I think it's, again, as you spoke to, sort of, often an arc that we see [00:43:00] is someone doing this individual work and then being like, and there being a point of like, keeping it internal and not being ready to talk about it, and then getting to a point of like, okay, I'm feeling it's starting to bleed into other areas of your life.

  And then into like, you know, often for not everybody, but for a lot of people, it is, okay, can I teach a class about this? Or can I integrate this into just like conversations with friends and family or whatever it is? Right. So yeah, spot at the wall when you [00:43:30] have the bandwidth and capacity because we're not always going to, like there's seasons and shifts and 

  Jess: It's a whole ass journey. 

  Alissa: for sure. 

  Jess: Okay, bringing this, I'm going to say full circle and thinking about just our listeners, are there any, I was going to say tips or any place that you would give advice for starting in this work when we're talking, maybe focusing like on how your book is structured, like obviously listeners, Go buy Unapologetic Eating, it is wonderful, and if you're a fan of Sturdy Girl, it is right in line with all of this [00:44:00] messaging.

  But also, like, in general, for just listeners right now who probably are listening to this on like 2x speed, any maybe tips for starting that work, any like, if the audience was gonna remember one thing from this whole dang podcast besides your book What would it be?

  Alissa: You know, I think a starting place is just, and I'll name this because I'm like this too, we often have this like, well, what can I do? Right? Like wanting to like take action, which can be great. And if I could say one thing, it would be. Awareness building and mindfulness and starting to just [00:44:30] pause, you know, our typical, I walk through this in a chapter in the book, like our typical kind of human brain response is like we have a thought or like we experienced something and we react to it and we don't really ever pause to like, Stop and unpack that or think about that or like respond to it rather than like our automatic reaction.

  And so I think that is where I would start is starting to pause, you know, whether that's like. body cues, whether that is, you know, [00:45:00] having negative body image thoughts and then just taking a pause and being like, okay, I'm having the thought that X, Y, Z, I don't like how my body looks in this outfit or whatever it is.

  And just like separating yourself a bit from that thought and then starting to be like, okay, where does this even come from? You know, starting to do a little work there. Same thing with some of the food stuff, like raising awareness of, you know, Thinking about a client of mine who had this realization, had not been, quote unquote, dieting for a long time, and was like, oh yeah, I'm not doing that anymore, but then had [00:45:30] this realization that she still had all these food rules that were then impacting her.

  Like, for example, she had this, like, in her head that sandwiches were not Like she couldn't have that at lunch because that was like too many carbs. And so what would happen when she'd get to like lunchtime, she'd be ravenous. But she's like, well, I can't have a sandwich. But then ends up just like grazing on all this other stuff and like, not really fully satisfying herself.

  Cause she either had like, well, it's like a sandwich or it's this like. You know, or it's like the grazing, or it's this like perfect [00:46:00] quote unquote healthy quote unquote lunch bowl or whatever. So starting to raise awareness in like all the ways in which this like insidious diet mentality, diet culture, anti fat beliefs are showing up, both within you and outside of you.

  Jess: I'm nodding along and kind of chuckling over here because that is so often the conversation that I've had on this podcast is that awareness piece and paying attention. it's such a hard thing to I'm not going to say teach but talk about on the podcast because it's like I can't tell you it's not like [00:46:30] how do I get better at running or where do I start with running and you say?

  Okay, start out with run walk intervals at like three minutes of running one minute of walking Whatever it might be right like there is a place to start There's a direct action you can take like you were saying like we want to take action And it's like no, it's this awkward like getting uncomfortable and slowing down.

  You want me to slow down? And start paying attention Tension? Like that, that's the answer? Ew. Like that's the beginning of the work. 

  Alissa: yep, I know so many of my clients. And they're like, well, what can I [00:47:00] do? And I'm like, just pay attention. They're like

  Jess: that sounds terrible. 

  Alissa: it sounds terrible. I don't want to do that. Which makes sense. Right. Because like the disconnection that so many of us have from our bodies comes from a place of like, in so many ways, and I talk about this a bit in the book too, like all the ways in which we can become disconnected from our bodies and ourselves.

  It's like often a protective mechanism because yeah, it is wildly uncomfortable in this culture to be connected to our bodies a lot of the time, and it is much easier to be disconnected. But [00:47:30] if we try to do things like, well let me start these run walk intervals without having that foundation of awareness.

  Then sure, you can do run walk intervals, but like, you know, just thinking of some of the stuff I work with, like, is that going to be sustainable? Is that going to be, like, what your body needs? Are you going to get injured, right? Like, without doing this, background work that's definitely not as, like, fun and sexy.

  But when it comes to, really, like, sweeping long term changes, that's where we need to start.

  Jess: And that's kind of, I'll say one more [00:48:00] thing and then we can get to some fun wrap up questions, but just along these awareness mindfulness, like all of that. we're discussing like getting more into woo recently. I have really leaned into the concept of mindfulness in the last couple of years, and especially with this podcast and talking about body image and that awareness piece.

  Um, I think there's a lot of us that shy away from this concept of mindfulness. And one thing that I've come to understand over time and what I have, I talk a lot about it on the podcast and with clients too, is like, Mindfulness isn't you sitting down in that [00:48:30] yoga cross legged position that you're envisioning and like full on meditation.

  It is literally Paying attention to the thoughts that come up and letting them go. It is being mindful of how you are Maybe triggered by certain environments or clothes or people or things or events. It's so many pieces of that It is it's coming back to you To yourself and paying attention to your body and that relationship with self.

  And I think that that is exactly what you're saying. And something that I just, the more the time goes on, the more I'm like, no, no, like, don't [00:49:00] think this is woo. This is not woo at all. This is you being able to connect to yourself. it's such a big part of that work

  Alissa: Yes, absolutely. 

  Jess: too, because.

  Alissa: Yeah.

  Jess: in terms of what you were saying, like, get to the point where we have more capacity and more energy to do things because we're not so focused on the appearance, the body, the food, the things, we are living our lives. The initial work takes more time and more awareness and more things and more discomfort. But when we, we come back around to, yes, it leads to more [00:49:30] capacity. It leads to being able to figure out where our place is and doing the work and all of that. I love it. Thank you for like, fully like bringing this full circle.

  I love it so much. 

  Alissa: Absolutely.

  Jess: Okay. Fun questions. If you could pick one food to eat every day for the rest of your life, what would it be?

  Alissa: Something definitely related to bread. I love bread. I love carbs. And like, probably some sort of like, fresh baked bread with really good butter.

  Jess: side tangent for just a second, yes. The first time I ever went [00:50:00] to France was with my husband,

  Alissa: Oh, I knew you were going to say France,

  because I'm thinking about France too. 

  Jess: yes. Well, what do you think, like, good bread and good butter? else are you gonna go? so, talking about let's say, eating journey of unlearning disordered eating and those things.

  My husband and I first started dating and I was very much a quote unquote clean eater. Read, low carb, no processed food, all the things, right? Like a mask for disordered eating. I slowly unlearned all of that because my husband has the biggest sweet tooth of anyone I've ever met in my life. And when we first [00:50:30] started dating, it'd be like, I'd open the cupboard and there's like, Oreos, five kinds of sugary cereal, like, multi pints of ice cream in the freezer, those things, and you're like, my god.

  So, that, setting that foundation, we go to Europe together, almost a year into dating, and he's like, Okay, every day we buy a baguette, and we get some butter, and it's in our backpack for us to snack on throughout the day, and I was like, I don't know. Carbs? Oh my god. I don't know. I don't know if I can do that.

  This is really a lot. And it was like really overwhelming at first. And then by like week two and [00:51:00] a half, I'm like, heck yeah, let's go get our morning baguette. Like this is amazing. similar to your like exposure to the New York food scene, right? Like the, the repeated exposure therapy, if you will.

  I'm like, I get it. I get it now. All the bread, please.

  Alissa: Oh my gosh. that's, I mean, when I went to Paris, that's exactly, I was by myself one time and literally got like all the baguettes. I got an entire thing of butter and I was only there for like three or four days. My friend was like, wait, you bought like a whole thing of butter? And I'm like, oh, I'm going to eat a lot.

  I'm going to eat most of

  Jess: Do you know how good the [00:51:30] butter is here? Okay.

  Alissa: so good.

  Oh, so good. I miss France. 

  Jess: Between that, the croissants, the crepes, the, all the things. . 

   Okay what kind of fun fact do you share during icebreaker type questions?

  Alissa: Oh, this is such a good question. I have a couple. One of them is that I spent a year ballroom dancing in my twenties, learning and doing all the ballroom dancing and like did a ballroom dancing competition.

  Jess: That's amazing. Do you have a 

  favorite type of ballroom dance?

  Alissa: I Loved the more, the rhythm [00:52:00] dances. I was better at the smooth dances, like the waltz and the foxtrot, but I loved the rhythm dances in part because of the music. And I loved the swing dancing because it was just like so much fun. And that's the music that I grew up listening to because my, that was like my mom's era of music.

  And so swing dancing was one of my favorites.

  Jess: Oh, that's so cool. I love that. Okay, what was your other fun fact? You said there were

  two. 

  Alissa: Yeah, I mean, one of the other ones is that I worked as a barista at Dunkin Donuts for an entire summer, like, [00:52:30] 40 hours a week, the 4am to noon shift. and it was amazing. I loved it. I had to go to bed at 7pm every night but it was just like, If I wasn't doing what I'm doing now, I would be a barista again, because I also waitressed in my youth, and yeah, the barista, we'd see the same people every morning, especially at like 4am to 7am, it's all the same people come in every day.

  So you get that, like, community and interaction, but without as much, I mean, anyone who's worked in service and, like, [00:53:00] waitressing, waitering, is very hard work. And, like, a lot more to remember, and, like, you're running around, and we'd obviously get busy at the coffee shop, but you have these, like, shorter interactions, and I just really loved it, and I loved working the drive thru. Oh my god, it was so much fun, wearing the headset 

  Jess: people are happy to see you.

  Alissa: Yeah. I know you're giving them their morning coffee.

  Jess: Yeah, they're like, oh, thank you. And maybe they're half awake. Usually they're half awake, but they're just like, yes, give me, give me this elixir that's going to keep me [00:53:30] awake. Oh, that's fantastic. I was a barista for like a year and a half. And I also loved it because I have worked in dentistry since I was 16. Virtually no one likes going to the dentist. It's just fact. It's okay. So when I started working part time as a barista, I was like, these people like coming to see me? Sometimes they bring me little gifts because they're so appreciative of things?

  Like, yeah, I'm gonna put sprinkles on top of your drink. This is great! So much joy. Much more manageable waitressing, for sure. Okay. Aside from your [00:54:00] own book, What is the number one book that you've recommended or given as a gift?

  Alissa: Oh, man. I'll go with the first one that comes to mind, which is Braiding by Robin Kimmer, I believe is her name. Are you familiar with that 

  book? 

  Jess: I am.

  Alissa: Oh my gosh. I love it so much. I just this summer was like going through and reading it for the second time and again, speaking to someone who also loves science, right, like, the author is a botanist, I believe, and also [00:54:30] has ancestry in indigenous communities.

  in the U. S. and so pulls together like both of those things like the science and like the indigenous ways and it's just such a beautifully written book and yeah it just really helped me to like see the world in a different way and and talk about like being present and being aware and being aware of your surroundings.

  And because I'll say a close second to that is How to Do Nothing by Jenny O'Dell is another one 

  that I [00:55:00] recommend a lot. 

  Jess: do I need to check it out from the library right now? 

  Alissa: oh my gosh. It's so good. And it's again, similar in the sense, I think I don't even, this might be the tagline of the book, but basically it's about like, it's not really how to do nothing.

  Part of it is how to do nothing, but it's like. How are we in like this attention economy that we're in? How are we mindful of what we're giving our attention to? 

  Jess: I just checked it out from the library. It's done. Can't wait to read. I'm like, I ask this question as much for my listeners as I do for myself. I, one of my favorites [00:55:30] guests recommended a few months ago was The Perfectionist's Guide to Losing Control. 

  Alissa: Well, that sounds amazing. I've not heard of 

  Jess: yes, fantastic. So there you go. 

  That was great. Okay. Last question. How do you take your coffee or tea or a morning beverage of choice?

  Alissa: my favorite way is a latte. I love lattes made with whole milk. If I'm at home, I do pour over black. Assuming I have good beans, which really, I'm like, totally a coffee sob. An aside on that fun fact, which is like, a secondary fun [00:56:00] fact, I think, is that while I worked at Dunkin Donuts, I actually did not drink coffee at the time.

  Jess: Hey, that was 

  me too! 

  Alissa: Yep, totally. It wasn't until, speaking of Europe, it wasn't until I went to Italy. in my 20s and I was like, oh, this is what coffee's supposed to taste like. Like it totally changed my relationship to coffee. So yeah, if I have good beans at home, I do pour over and make it black, but really a couple times a week I go to my, or a local coffee shop, I did it this morning actually, and get a [00:56:30] latte.

  Jess: Fantastic. I've become a coffee snob too. Mine was senior year of college and studying for, we had six board exams, equal amounts of clinical work, didactic work, and I was like, I need something. What is the safest drug? 

  Alissa: There you go. Caffeine does work. 

  Jess: caffeine tolerance, it was like four ounces of coffee and that was all I needed.

  And then I was buzzing.

  Alissa: Yeah. When you haven't been drinking it, right? That's another one. Michael Pollan's book. Your mind on plants sitting, this is your mind on plants. It's [00:57:00] sitting like right next to me right now. One of the ones he talks about is caffeine. And he, as part of his research went for several months without drinking coffee and then talked about like his first cup going back and how much focus and energy, but then when you're drinking it every day, the effects of that dissipate.

  So he was like, ideally, and I'm not able to do this myself, but ideally you're not having it every day. You're sort of like saving it for, which is just, it can be hard, 

  Jess: I have, it's too much of a ritual. [00:57:30] It's too much of 

  Alissa: yeah. Yes. Yeah, for me too. It is like the ritual and enjoyment

  Jess: warm, warm beverage in the morning. Yeah. That's so good. Okay, Where can audiences find you and learn more?

  Alissa: You can go to my website, alissarumsey. com. You can find my book wherever books are sold. It's also alissarumsey. com backslash book has links to where you can purchase it. I also have a lot of free resources on there. If you go to alissarumsey. com backslash resources, if you're looking to just learn [00:58:00] about intuitive eating.

  Body image, body liberation, any of the things we talked about today, that would be a great place to start too.

  Jess: Yay! Thank you so much. This was such a great conversation.

  Alissa: You're welcome. Thank you for having me.

  Jess: So good. Alright, friends, thanks so much for listening to another episode of Sturdy Girl. We will catch you next Friday.

48. Building Confidence and Improving Mental Performance with Kristin Tullo

In this episode of Sturdy Girl, Jess interviews Kristen, a mental performance coach who works with athletes, coaches, and parents to improve confidence, focus, and motivation. Kristen shares her journey from being a strength and conditioning coach to specializing in mental performance, emphasizing the importance of preparation and control. She discusses her methods for helping athletes of all ages, from youth to adult women's leagues, and provides valuable insights on visualization, self-talk, and overcoming obstacles. The conversation highlights the significance of mindset and how athletes and individuals can develop confidence as a skill.

Connect with Kristin HERE.

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• Full Transcript

  [00:00:00] 

  Jess: Hello friends, welcome back to another episode and interview of Sturdy Girl. Today we have Kristen on with us and I'm going to turn this directly over to her so she can tell us all about what she does, but I think a big focus today is going to end up being confidence, so I'm going to set the stage. Go for it.

  Kristin: Thanks, Jess. And thank you again for having me here. This is awesome. So I'm a mental performance coach and I work with athletes, coaches, Sometimes parents to really just work through the struggles that a lot of athletes and [00:00:30] coaches feel throughout the seasons where, you know, the seasons can be long, they can be grueling confidence, focus, motivation, all those types of things can waver a lot.

  I help them overcome those things by just identifying what's happening, giving them tools and strategies to keep confident, keep motivated and keep focused. And so that they can have success, but also much happier seasons.

  Jess: That's awesome. Do you work with a particular age group? Do you work with like high school kids or kids in sports? Or are you mostly with adults? 

  Kristin: Um, 

  mostly [00:01:00] with kids. So I've worked with kids from 10 to high school level. And then I've also worked with college athletes. I've worked with some college teams. And then even outside of that, you know, those teams where you're grown women and you still want to be playing sports. So I work with a lot of women's leagues too.

  Jess: that's really rad. Okay. how did you get into this?

  Kristin: All right. So I am a strength and conditioning coach still. I have my own personal training business, which I absolutely love. But I kind of got into this because. Of course, I was an athlete. I [00:01:30] also coached for the last 10 years. I've coached ice hockey and soccer. And this year is my first year off, which is like a whole new experience for me, but I got into the mental performance side because I was working always as just a team coach and the athletic training coach.

  And I was seeing so many missing pieces to the mental side of the game. And I have a social work background, so like I'm very in tune with that kind of stuff, like the psychology of everything, and just seeing how kids reacted to situations, and how parents reacted to situations, and hearing from parents how their [00:02:00] kids had reacted, right?

  They could have like a three goal game and still be crying on the way home. Things were always just, they're just never feeling good enough. No matter what. So you can ask the highest scoring athlete on any team what one of their struggles is. And I'm willing to bet that top two, one of them would be their mental side, the mental side of the game.

  So I saw that kind of hole and I was like, you know what, these kids are working physically enough. That's not even what they need anymore. So I stopped training them in the gym and I just started working with them on the mental side of the game.

  Jess: [00:02:30] That's huge. And especially too with, kids teens, if you will, emotions are really high. So when you're learning that emotional regulation in the first place, but then also, right, like you said, It's not the physical necessarily as much as they need. They know how to go through drills and go through practice and play the game.

  It is. It's that mental performance side. 

  Kristin: Absolutely. And you know, I have so much fun, like even just like talking about it with you today. This is like, it's so cheesy, right? But it's like one of those things that just excites me. I love talking to athletes and like telling them all the things [00:03:00] that like my biggest, thing is everything is in your control.

  Right? So I do workshops on just the power of control for confidence and motivation. And when you can understand that. The mental side of your game is just as trainable as the physical side and that you control all of that. It's again, not to sound cheesy, but it's really empowering and it can be very life changing for you outside of sports too, because when you realize, I know for me, for my business, when I started really fully taking control of things.

  it was crazy. Like how much more productive I was and [00:03:30] like how many more people I was able to help.

  Jess: Yeah, absolutely. This is super, like you said, you're talking about getting excited, talking about these things in it, feeling cheesy. What I think about in terms of this, when you're like, you're in control and understanding how much our mental, let's say self talk and how we respond to the ups and downs of that is in our control, it reminds me of just the concept of radical responsibility of taking responsibility for.

  And your actions and your reactions and understanding how much of like the outcome of something is in your control?

  Kristin: and that's one [00:04:00] of the things that I always like to drill home. It's like, you didn't have a bad game because you didn't score that goal that you, that you had a great shot. You had a perfect opportunity, you miss it. that doesn't define your performance. What defines your performance is how you reacted to that.

  You let that moment take you out of the game. And that's why everything that followed wasn't as strong of a performance as you could have given.

  Jess: You got it in your head. 

  Kristin: exactly. So being able to just refocus after that one bad shot, and just keep playing, it's a huge difference in what the outcome for you is going to [00:04:30] be.

  Jess: so you said social work background and then strength and conditioning coaching. And then into more mindset, confidence, performance, piece of coaching. 

  Kristin: Yes. 

  Jess: rad. And what a well rounded, especially to where maybe even while you were doing strength coaching, and when you're coaching, you said ice hockey and soccer, understanding how much that mental piece played a part in that too.

  So then to be like, alright, this is where I'm gonna focus. How much are the parents [00:05:00] involved in this process?

  Kristin: It depends on how old they are right so obviously like the college kids that I work with I don't talk to their parents I talk to their coaches the younger kids, if I'm doing a zoom call with them, if they're under 17 or 15 dependent on what the parent wants. I'll always say like the parent is always welcome to come on the call with us, sit there, be in the background but I want them to feel comfortable.

  with me. I will ask them do feel comfortable if th of like step aside becaus

  But that [00:05:30] is obviously the discretion of the parent. And then outside of the call itself, I do communicate a little bit through email just because I like to get updates. And so again, if they're younger, I don't feel comfortable

  just having contact with them. Right. And I don't think that they want to be emailing me kids, but but it's good to get just little updates here and there from, from the parents.

  Jess: Yeah, that's cool. are you currently doing any confidence coaching with adults?

  Kristin: I'm not doing any adults right now outside of like, I just finished with a woman's rugby team. They just won their third [00:06:00] championship in a row, which is pretty awesome. And I'm always impressed by this group of women who have so many other things going on, full time jobs, marriages kids, other commitments.

  And they're always reaching out to me. Like we are going into playoffs. We want to make sure that we're focused and that we're going in there with the right a mindset, and we want you to, to do a call with us again. It's like when you're at that level and you have so many other things going on, making the time for what you know, is actually really important to keeping that success I'm always impressed by that.

  Jess: That's rad. [00:06:30] Women's rugby.

  Ilona Maher bringing it on the scene, right? I 

  love it so much. 

  Kristin: practice one time. And I was like to watch her, to play, they're like to play. And I was like, no, no, no, no. I'm my playing days of anything are done. I could not even imagine rugby.

  Jess: It's intense.

  Kristin: Very intense. I'm like, I see you guys, what you guys are doing on Instagram. Like I can't handle that.

  Jess: I'm good. If I could put myself in bubble wrap, maybe.

  Kristin: Right. Right.

  Jess: what is your sports background? What do you play?

  Kristin: I played soccer and ice hockey.

  Jess: Oh, so okay. So you [00:07:00] coaching what you, what you played.

  Kristin: Yep. Yep.

  Anything else? I don't really know anything about.

  Jess: okay. So I'm curious when we talk about confidence, what does real confidence mean to you? And then follow up to that is like, what are some real things that actually build that?

  Kristin: Yeah. So real confidence is everything that you do. It's all the actions that you take, right? It's not just how you feel. It's a choice that you make to yourself every day to make sure that you are doing the preparation and everything that leads up [00:07:30] to game time. It's not, it's not about outcomes, right?

  It's more about processes, which is another common theme that I have for everything that I do with my athletes. It's what we're doing, how we're doing it. And just building yourself up to have the beliefs that when you get to the game time situations. You're fully prepared, right? It's about having the right body language.

  It's about having the right preparation. And then once you're feeling prepared for anything, like think about it. If you want to take an exam and you don't have a pencil, like you're feeling really anxious, nervous. You're not focused [00:08:00] because you're so busy thinking like, Oh God, I need to find a pencil.

  I need to find a pen. I'm not even prepared. Now, the person that goes into the test. With the tools that they need is already able to feel much more confident when they sit in that chair. So it's just everything the actions that you take to get you to the game, letting you know that you're fully ready to do this.

  Jess: That's fantastic. so I think of confidence as a skill building. It is a skill to be practiced. It's a skill that is domain specific. So like for you talking specifically for confidence in your sport and your game. [00:08:30] and I think that it's really interesting because the general conception of confidence is like this.

  Swagger walk in the room, like, you know, this person's confident. I think that's like the biggest myth about, about confidence. And so when you talk about the skill piece of it, yeah, I just, I really appreciate that just from a realistic perspective, because I'm trying to think of a, a well, articulated way to say, like, society has such a misconception of confidence, and especially where you're working with youth, they've probably [00:09:00] internalized a lot of messaging with confidence.

  They're like, oh, so just got to, like, swagger out onto the field, right? We're good.

  Kristin: Right. So don't get me wrong. I think body language is one of the biggest things that you can do to help you feel confident, right? So if you're going to feel confident, you want to feel it so that your mind starts to believe it. So if I came on to this podcast and I showed up on our zoom call and I was like, my head's down and my shoulders are slumped.

  I'm probably not exuding much confidence to you. And in my mind, how I'm showing up, I'm like, I don't know if I even know what I'm going to be talking about. Am [00:09:30] I going to be able to answer her questions? But if I come in here and I'm standing tall, I'm already giving you the impression like, all right, Kristen looks like she's ready for it.

  And in my mind, I'm like, All right, I'm standing tall. I'm here. And then I'm just giving that message to my mindset like I'm, I am here. I am ready and I'm ready to answer whatever she wants to throw at me.

  Jess: The way you carry yourself does matter. And I think that's really interesting. So, um, we've done A couple of episodes on confidence for sturdy girl and one of the pieces I was reading in research about confidence [00:10:00] there was a TED talk that went viral about like the power pose

  Kristin: Okay. 

  Yeah, 

  Jess: hands on hips, you know shoulders back and down and It was really interesting because that went viral, and then they had a study that they did that was a fairly small one, and so it was like, oh, you know, how much stock do we put in this, but then they're like, okay, that doesn't have anything to do with confidence,

  which then you read further and just, you know, You understand that it's a piece of it.

  And I think, you [00:10:30] know, especially with things in the media that, go viral, is there like one piece of the puzzle? and so that is one thing that in a previous episode we talked a lot about is like, okay, there's the mindset as much as there is the physical piece of it too, right? And that's the way you carry yourself.

  You're You're reinforcing whatever the message is. So like you said, if you showed up on here and your shoulders were slumped, I mean, if I showed up on here and I'm ready to like, I'm ready to host you as a guest. And I'm like, Hey, good morning. Welcome to sturdy girl, [00:11:00] you know, and seeing that energy, you're not seeing the confidence projected of like, Hey, sturdy girl's really rad.

  And I'm so stoked that you're here. Right. And like you get, you, Perceive that energy, both for yourself and others do as well.

  Kristin: Exactly. That's a great point, right? Because when you're on a team, and you're exuding confidence, you're already making everyone else feel better, right? So an example is I always give examples in hockey terms, but if you have like your backup goalie, it's not your starting goalie, it's your backup goalie.

  You're a little bit more like, Oh no. Like, are they ready? [00:11:30] You want to make sure that they're all gassed up and ready to go. So you want them to be like, no, no, like I got this so that you can feel like, okay, she's got this. So, so we're all good. But if that goalie's back there and they're like, oh shit, like, I don't even know, like, am I really ready for this?

  The defense then are like, right. We're like, we're going to struggle here because we have to make sure that the pup doesn't even get over to her. Right? So exuding that confidence, it's a chain reaction because you want to make sure that that whole bench is gassed up and ready to go.

  Jess: They're ready for it. So what kind of things do you feel [00:12:00] like actually build confidence

  Kristin: The ultimate one is going to be preparation. That's like my whole thing. It's such a low hanging fruit that anyone and everyone can do it. It's like no matter what the situation is that you want to feel confident for. Right. It doesn't have to be sports. It's again, it's this podcast. If you feel prepared, you're feeling more confident coming into it.

  So that's why it's a choice, right? It's not just, and I will say, feel confident, but it's a choice that you're making because you can show up here, not ready, or you can show up here, ready. And it's the same thing [00:12:30] for athletes, for people that have to give a presentation at work. Like, in college, I'll be honest, or high school rather, I wasn't always prepared for it much.

  Right? I didn't prepare much because I didn't really take things too seriously in high school. I'm the first to admit it. So there were a lot of times when I had to do presentations, and I was not confident at all because I did nothing to prepare myself for that situation. So, if I'm going lowest hanging fruit, And something that anyone can start doing, it's just making sure that you have the preparation in place.

  Jess: having the pencil for the test?

  Kristin: [00:13:00] Yes.

  Jess: I mean, that is the half of, being prepared, like being confident in this podcast. I would not come on this. interview without some level of preparedness. I've read what I could about you online. I put together questions so that if I inevitably segue, those questions are on the other half of my screen to feel prepared, to feel more confident, because I want to make sure that, that you You and your time is respected, right?

  And that listener's time is respected and they get to enjoy this [00:13:30] conversation. Like there are so many pieces of that. And I think about this in terms of to going back to like confidence as a skill is like the preparedness is also practice, practicing a skill. so if it's gaining confidence in say back squatting with a barbell.

  Right? The more that you put in the reps, the more that you are practicing, the more you are prepared, the more confident you are in being able to execute the squat.

  Kristin: Exactly.

  Jess: and so then put that into whatever domain you want to, but it's, it's the preparedness and the [00:14:00] practice.

  Kristin: Yeah. And I would say like, everything that I post is always directed towards athletes, but you can apply it to any other area, business, marriage, just life in general, everything kind of just intertwines. Because it's always, again, it's the choices you make, it's the control that you take. And I would say, like, focus on the things that you have control of, and then everything else kind of sets itself up, because if you're too busy thinking about things that you're not able to, to control, your confidence is going to lower because you're too busy worried about everything else.

  Jess: And [00:14:30] there are a lot of things in life that we can't control.

  Kristin: Right? Unfortunately,

  Jess: There are a lot, so we could spend all of our time thinking about those things, but there's a lot more I don't know if that's the word I want, power to be had in focusing on what we can control, than just thinking about that in terms of like the confidence building, because it feels really shitty if you like spiral yourself on how many things you can't control.

  Kristin: exactly. And that's what a lot of happens to a lot of athletes in games, right? They're too busy worried about what their teammates are doing [00:15:00] or not doing. They're worried about the officials. They're worried about what the fans are saying and doing. They're worried about what their opponents are going to do.

  It's like you can't control any of that shit. So stop wasting your energy and just focus on what you can do. Give yourself the best opportunities, right? So you can't control if you score a goal or not, or if you can shoot a basket or not and make it, but you can control putting yourself in the best situations to have those scoring opportunities.

  And that's another thing that I think is, is one of the mistakes that people make, especially [00:15:30] athletes. Is thinking that confidence is just driven by the results. We have to have it driven by the processes because you're not always going to have a great game right on the on the stat sheet. The statute is not always going to be in your favor.

  So you need to find other things that's going to keep you keep you motivated and keep you confident,

  Jess: I like that. It's applicable outside of the domain of, like, confidence and that kind of thing too, right, is it's the process, not the outcome for just about everything. If you're setting goals, it's not about that outcome. It is the process. You spend how [00:16:00] much of your time in the process And very little in the actual outcome.

  Kristin: right?

  Jess: Okay, so I'd kind of talked about the swagger when you walk into the room myth of like, that's the total embodiment of confidence. Are there any other myths about confidence?

  Kristin: I think I just said another one that is a huge one in that confidence comes from the outcome, but to give an easy example, I had a girl on one of my teams once, and we were playing a team that like, we had no business playing. They were. They were terrible, right? We ended up mercying them. They were just [00:16:30] not good.

  And I had one of my girls on the team was mad. She wasn't getting more minutes because she wants to score all these goals. And she's like, Oh, you're messing with my stats. And I was getting really upset about it. You're going to feel better about yourself by scoring like three goals on this team who like you should just easily score against.

  Then you would have playing against a team that is at your level and maybe not scoring the goal, right? So you can't have the confidence only come from the outcome because that's You shouldn't feel great about yourself just because you scored three goals on a goalie that could barely skate, [00:17:00] right?

  I would feel better really just giving everything I had against a team that is, we know is going to beat us, but we're just giving our best effort. So one of the myths that I would say is just, again, the process. Is more important than the outcome. 

  it's a given or it's not right.

  You either have confidence or you don't, which is just untrue, The whole point of what I do is to show you that it's really a skill set, something that you can train just like anything else and become stronger. And when you have the right tools in place, you'll realize that it's not that you didn't [00:17:30] have confidence or you weren't capable of having confidence.

  But you just maybe weren't looking for it in the right places, if that makes sense.

  Jess: Absolutely. It's almost like the fix versus growth mindset, right? Of like, well, I'm just not a confident person. Well, like, that's just not a thing. I've never really been confident. I'm not I'm not that person. Instead of like, oh, it's a skill set that I can work on that I can improve on.

  Here's a challenge that I can approach.

  Kristin: Yeah. And you just made a great point because it is, everything is, you have to understand that you have a growth, [00:18:00] you can have a growth mindset, right? Not everything is fixed. And again, when you believe that is when you start to be able to, to overcome a lot of things that you didn't think you could. 

  Jess: absolutely. Do you find that you know, you've worked with Adults and then working with I'm gonna just say youth . do you find that there is a similar amount of Leaning into while the innate talents of like, Oh, I'm just not a confident person.

  When you try to work on mindset and work on that skill building. Is it similar with adults and, kids?

  Kristin: Yes. Because I feel [00:18:30] like, I feel like the most important thing about working with the youths is letting them understand that it is something that they can create and build for themselves. Whereas a lot of us weren't taught that when we were younger, right? We were like, even they're told to like, just be confident.

  Like you should be more confident. We weren't given ways to actually do it. a lot of the adults that I work with do come to me at first, even as my strength and conditioning clients, like very hesitant, they've never done weight training before. So they're not confident when they come into the gym.

  And I always send out an initial email. When I have a new client coming in and I say [00:19:00] like Here's everything I want you to know and I think that you want to know so that you are confident coming into the gym on your first day. And it's like silly little things. I tell them the address again. I'll let them know the parking situation. My gym is in a town where street parking is a disaster and you don't have to pay to park. We have a private parking lot. So like one less thing for you to have to worry about when you get there in the morning. I tell them we have yoga mats, but they can bring their own, bring a water bottle, bring a towel if you want.

  Here's my phone number. If you get lost, anything else, just reach out to me. Right. I just tell them all these little things that [00:19:30] they can be like, okay. Cause I know myself, like sometimes if I'm not sure where I'm going or what the situation is, I'm like a little bit more hesitant or nervous than I need to be.

  So just taking some of those things off their plate. And then they come in And they feel a little bit more relaxed.

  Jess: It's a little better. yeah, knowing the parking situation in advance is amazing.

  Kristin: Yes, I know like, for myself, I'll be like halfway somewhere and I'll be like, Shit, what's the parking situation? I'm like, pulling over and like, Googling to see if it says like, private parking lot or like, Google Street View to [00:20:00] see where they are if they have a 

  lot. 

  Jess: Yeah. Do I anticipate parallel parking? 

  How far away? Is there a parking garage? What is the situation?

  Kristin: You want to know if you have to parallel park before you get 

  anywhere. Like 

  Jess: I need to 

  prepare myself. 

   Okay, I'm going to segue for just a second. and then I want to come back and talk a little bit more. I want to talk a little bit more about mindset and the skills along mindset in general. But talking about working with youth, that is one piece that with Sturdy Girl, and with the mission behind improving body [00:20:30] image and resilience and confidence as well, I am working on some curriculum to go into middle schools.

  Is the ideal and probably even high schools to and start having these conversations with younger people, because, you know, asked the question about if it was similar with like fixer verse growth mindset with adults and with children. If we can have those conversations younger about how much confidence is a skill, resilience is a skill, body image is about our relationship with [00:21:00] ourselves and learning how to handle the messaging of other people and the media and how our body image story is shaped, there's so much less unlearning that has to happen.

  when you talk about it younger versus where I'm at with this podcast right now is talking to adults. And that's a lot of the conversations that I have on these podcasts is the unlearning, the unlearning of the messages so heavily ingrained in us, and then working on the relationship with ourselves and finding ourselves in this, like, [00:21:30] canyon between self loathing and self acceptance, and figuring out how the hell to have that work.

  And so that's like, I want to say a dream because I know that it's going to happen. It's just a matter of like putting together a good little curriculum and a couple of workshops for this. and I actually, through my full time job as a hygienist, I've connected with a couple of people who work in middle schools in the Portland area who were like yeah, when you're ready, call me.

  But that is where I really see gaining a lot of fulfillment from, from our mission.

  Kristin: I love [00:22:00] that. And that's awesome because it is so important. Like, I feel like right now it has gotten a little better. Like when I first started as a personal trainer, a little over 10 years ago, Everyone wants it to just be a weight loss client. And I felt like in order for me to have clients, I need to be a weight loss coach.

  And I hated it. Now like, since I started working for myself about five years ago, I'm like, I can't do weight loss guys. It's not, it's not it. We're just going to get really fucking strong. 

  Right. That's the goal. And I've had so many clients say, like, I was [00:22:30] posting in a, in a mom's group on Facebook About like my clients and we're not just here to like sweat as much as possible and to burn as many calories.

  Like if that's what you're looking for, don't visit my website. Cause I'm not, I'm not going to be the coach for you, but if you want to be able to like farmers, carry your Costco groceries to your car and pick your kids up easily and like play on the ground and just feel strong, like let's go, let's, let's hit the gym right now.

  Cause I'm ready. And so many people resonated with that and it made me so happy. And I've had clients say to [00:23:00] me, like, you know, I was looking for a trainer and everyone that I went to was like, they're on their website. It was like weight loss. And your website was just like, do you want to get strong?

  They're like, that's what I came here for. So I think that there is definitely an improvement lately. Then it was that they kind of came along, but that's a whole new conversation. But to have those conversations at a younger age is going to just be so much. It's just like, like, hope for the future.

  Jess: I just, I think about it in terms of myself, and then I have two sisters that are fairly similar [00:23:30] in age too, and I think about how I don't want to say how much more powerful we could be if we had these messages earlier on, but I think back to middle school years, because the middle school, time is like that transition and you start going through puberty and it's awkward and it's messy and it's weird and it's, there's a lot of like drama and all the things, but that's when I remember being so much more self aware over how my clothes fit and what I wore and what I looked like and my hair and, oh, girls are starting to wear makeup [00:24:00] and this and that.

  And it was also the early 2000s. Where it was the thinner the better and that was that was like the quote unquote ideal body type Which is hilarious that the ideal changes every 10 years or so, 

   nevertheless, that was it. It was in the days of like, Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera and like, all of those with like, low rise jeans and whatever else.

  And

  Kristin: Terrible period of

  time. 

  Jess: oh my gosh, I know. But growing up in that and then having a body type that was so different from [00:24:30] that and just having that message of like, well, I can't achieve that. I'm not that. I'm not that. And struggling so hard with that. But that messaging and the way that I felt about my body Extrapolated out into, like, how I showed up at school, how I showed up in my school work, or the willingness to learn, or the openness to be an active participant in school things, right?

  And just seeing that, and not just saying, like, oh, woe is me, my childhood was so, not like that at all. It was still a great, like, I [00:25:00] still, I grew up in a small enough town that, like, still know what, like, certain middle school teachers are doing with their lives, right? Like, it was not a bad experience.

  Objectively or subjectively, right? But just the amount of struggles that went through that when you just like don't know who you are and your body is changing so much anyways and then you receive these messages from so many different places, that if you had this like, cornerstone of hey, here's this like series of workshops that are going to at least start the process in your brain to say like, there's an alternative to [00:25:30] this.

  Kristin: Mm hmm. 100%.

  Jess: Although I will say, in interacting with middle school kids these days, they're more put together than I was even in like, college. With their like, hair and style and all of the things. And I'm like, oh god, do I know how to relate to 

  Kristin: Right. I used to coach middle school girls soccer and they probably looked at me like, wow, Coach Kristen is a mess. We were not the same when we were in middle 

  school. 

  Jess: No, no, it seems like they're just, there's self awareness so [00:26:00] much earlier. So maybe, maybe I need to be in elementary school, so I'm not sure. But we're exploring this to find like, age range, but still.

  Kristin: Can I turn the tables on you right now? sure.

  All right. 'cause you just mentioned how you felt in middle school and, you know, like a little hesitation going into classes and things like that. What gave you the confidence?

  Jess: Like to continue going to 

  Kristin: Yeah, like what 

  Jess: doing things and showing up?

  Kristin: if you were, if you were feeling, because at that point in time, like again, like you said, like we're looking at Britney Spears and Christina Guiller, and you were like, I don't identify with, with [00:26:30] this. What gave you the confidence to do the things that you didn't like kind of overcome that.

  Jess: I leaned into, because I was just thinking more in terms of like, say group projects, or like trying to befriend other people that weren't ones that you've been friends with since like elementary school. I loved school. I loved learning, so I was part of the Knowledge Bowl team, and did a ton with that.

  I loved everything related to like, English and language arts and all of those areas, and so I used to like, I spent one entire summer recording books for my language arts class. [00:27:00] teacher, like recording books on tape because I loved reading out loud so much.

  Kristin: That's awesome. 

  Jess: so those were still the ways that I showed up and the confidence piece of like, I genuinely liked school and I genuinely enjoyed learning.

  And I'm sure that the reinforced messaging of family that was always like, Oh Jess, you're so smart. You're such a great student. I'm sure that those reinforcements definitely helped. But I did. I liked going to school, so I don't know how that helped me socially necessarily, but it 

  kept me going to school and doing things 

  Kristin: But you know what people were [00:27:30] saying that you're confident part of being confident is like being able to be a leader to lead reading books out loud. Like, not everyone has the confidence to do that. And like, record themselves doing it right. So there are little things again, and it's little things that you're doing that people don't even realize is like.

  Yeah. Or that you might not even realize yourself as presenting as a confident person and you have that confidence in you and you can even realize, like, if you're taking charge of your group projects, you're a leader, you're, exuding that that confidence.

  Jess: that I was also in band to [00:28:00] like first chair band for so long. And that it's so you saying this made me think about this. the way that we perceive ourselves. is not always accurate. Because I think about my, we'll just keep saying middle school experience, and how I perceived myself. And then reconnecting with people later in life that you went to school with through elementary school, middle school, high school, whatever it might be.

  And the people, specifically in band, people that were in band with me, they were like, you led You were always at competitions, you, like, talking about being a leader, you were so confident, and you just [00:28:30] knew exactly what you were doing at all times with band and with school. It was just crazy to see, and you didn't care about any of the drama.

  You know, their perception of me was like, this confident person, or this person who, like, knew what they were doing in school, and I'm like,

  Kristin: See, it's the actions that we take. 

  Jess: See? Okay, so it was, like, a lot of our, our, perception, it's in our 

  head. 

  Kristin: People always tell me all the time, like, the perception that they have of me, which I think is so funny. like, a client came in last week and she was like, Oh my God, I had no gas. I was down to 10 miles in my gas tank and I made it [00:29:00] here. She's like, that's something you would never do. I know that you would never.

  And I'm like, what do I put out there that makes them? Cause I'm always on E because I'm in New Jersey and we have to, we're not allowed to pump our own gas. And like, the worst thing ever is waiting for an attendant to come over. It's just like, wastes time. So I'm always like, just drive in my car until I absolutely need to stop for gas. But what am I giving off in the gym that makes my client think like, wow, this is not something Kristen would ever do. So it's just interesting when you hear what other people's perceptions are of you.

  Jess: [00:29:30] Okay, so I'm in Oregon. We also pump up our own gas.

  however, the shift in that is in certain areas, they have, like, self service options. if you go to Costco now, they have, like, two lanes that are attended, and then the rest are self serve.

  And So there's that shift. And that only happened in the last couple years.

  Which is, so this is hilarious, because every time you go to the gas station, you're watching, like, Oregonians try 

  to pump their own gas, and you're like, 

  what are you doing? 

  Kristin: I'm like, can I just get out and do it myself? It would be so much faster, more efficient, but I'm not allowed. [00:30:00] So here I am, 

  Jess: I think we're the only two states in the U. S.

  Kristin: I really are, because I thought for some reason that we were the only state, but now that you're saying I'm like, well, that does sound familiar. I think I have heard that before.

  Jess: oh my gosh. Yeah, okay, so, I'm just thinking about the kind of people that give off the, I always keep my gas tank at a quarter full

  vibes. Yeah, I like that. That's the preparedness, the put together. Maybe, maybe it's confidence, but maybe it's just the general, like, I have my shit together.

  Kristin: I think that that's what it is. 

  Jess: Which is what, honestly, at the end of the day, I mean, sure, [00:30:30] confidence is great, but I would just love to have that, like, semi put together vibe. most of the time, it's like, you know, fuck around and find out is how I live my life. 

  And most of us don't 

  really have it put together. 

  I don't 

  know. We definitely don't have it put together. I think I have it fairly put together, but we started this call with me not being able to use my headphones so I don't have it all put

  It's just the universe reminders that we don't ever really have it put together. yeah, that's exactly it. okay Coming back around, I mean, I guess we've been talking about mindset this [00:31:00] whole time anyways.

  We've talked about mindset as like the skill and as it being another muscle in your body. So we talk about confidence, we talk about growth mindset, we talk about those kinds of things. We've talked about confidence building tips. Do you have any more on mindset that you would want to talk about or touch on or any ways to build some of those muscles? 

  Kristin: Yeah. So again, I'm kind of going back and I feel like I always repeat myself, but it's because there's not like don't like people to have so [00:31:30] much to have to worry that, 

  Jess: and repetition for emphasis. It 

  helps 

  us retain things. 

  Kristin: is everything, but the mindset is all about taking control, understanding that it can be changed, and not just accepting like, just the way Jess is, like, no, F that.

  Like you, if you, there's something about yourself that you want to change, you can change it. And that sounds like every, like, Instagram guru. Right. Everyone thinks that they have all the solutions for everything and maybe, maybe they do, but, keeping it simple. It's just taking control, [00:32:00] knowing what your triggers are, knowing what you need to improve because without awareness, how can you change anything?

  Right? So when I work with athletes, one of the things I like to help them with is their focus. Again, like we had mentioned earlier, things that, a misplayed ball, a missed shot, things like that, and what your reaction is. So your mindset has to be ready to say, I'm ready for this game when things go south.

  I trust myself. I know that I'm prepared to take over and remediate any situation that needs to [00:32:30] be fixed. So what I mean by that is knowing your triggers would be I'm in the green zone. I'm feeling great. I'm doing everything that I need to do in the field. But all of a sudden I missed a couple of passes.

  Things aren't going great. I'm now I'm in the yellow zone and I'm not standing as tall as I was. I'm not moving as quick as I was. If I miss more of those balls, now I'm starting to get into the red zone. And now my head is completely out of it. So by training your mindset, you have to know that you are able to keep yourself at the very least in that yellow zone. So again, identifying the triggers, [00:33:00] what is happening or what am I doing that is making me go from green to yellow? What are the things that are making me go from yellow to red, right? And I have a whole list that I do with my clients. And it's the things that you're saying to yourself, the body language that you have. What physically what you're doing. So that would be like, I'm sprinting at the beginning of the game. Cause I'm in the green by the time I'm in the red, I'm just, when is the coach going to take me out of this game? Right. So identifying your triggers and then setting yourself for success by knowing what to do to fix those triggers. So if I'm going [00:33:30] from green to yellow, I'm noticing this about myself. Here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to look at the scoreboard. I'm going to take a deep breath. I'm going to squeeze my ponytail. That's my physical action. And I'm just gonna say to myself, I got this. So you do a few things to kind of remind yourself. I'm in control here, right? My mindset, I'm strong. I can do this. And now I'm back in the green zone because I just took myself back out from the yellow.

  Jess: Nice little reset. 

  Kristin: So it's all about, again, that first step for the, for the growth mindset is knowing you can do that. Don't let yourself just [00:34:00] go from green to yellow to red and say, F it. I guess I'll try again tomorrow. 

  Jess: this game is a wash. we're over it.

  Kristin: 10 minutes in, but I'm out. 

  Jess: What are your thoughts on things like visualization, practices with self talk, which you kind of mentioned, or like mantras or those kinds of things? Because that's something so I do a lot of like mental performance stuff with my athletes for running and strength coaching, more so on the running side because we're in our heads for hours at a time when we're running.

  So that mental piece is a [00:34:30] lot of set where you do go green zone, yellow zone, ah shit, we're in the red zone, back to the orange, back to the, you know, so you like kind of vary through depending on where you are in a race. So 

  I'd love to hear your thoughts.

  Kristin: Yep. Self talk. 100%. I love it. How we talk to ourselves is going to be another thing that just it's everything. Everything is about communicating to our mind. Right. What we're saying is what we're going to start believing. So if I'm telling myself, I have a foul shot. Oh God, I'm not good at this. I'm not going to be able to make this.

  This is, this is such a waste. Like I'm already, I might as [00:35:00] well just put the basketball down and walk away because there's no chance that I'm coming close to making that shot. But if I'm standing there and I'm telling myself, all right, Kristen, you got this. And if you don't, you have another shot at it.

  Like you just need to let yourself believe it's and I hate the fake it till you make it, but it's in that kind of realm just because you need to start telling yourself in order to get to the part where you fully understand that you're capable.

  Jess: it's the putting in reps. I think that's part of that too, is it's not necessarily a fake it, it's like keep trying 

  is the [00:35:30] point, right? Yeah,

  Kristin: into visualization too, right? Because when you put yourself in all of these situations, and if I tell my athletes like, okay, visualize yourself in that game. I don't want them to sit there and think about. Scoring the best goal. Lifting the trophy, right? that's like the easy part. We want to think about all the other situations that it can be in, and that's putting in reps too, right? It might not be physical reps, but imagining yourself and picturing yourself in every sort of situation that you could possibly find [00:36:00] yourself in, you're going to be able to react faster when it happens.

  So if I'm envisioning, okay, I made this pass, it got intercepted, and now I have to go back, what does that look like when I'm, when I'm doing it? Where am I going to go? What's my direction for that scenario? Then when it happens, I automatically, almost automatically know, because my brain is like, we've been here before, we know what to do, if physically I haven't been there before. 

  Jess: I like that a lot and that's something too 

  that are you familiar with like mental contrasting at all? It's similar to [00:36:30] visualization, but it's that, like you were saying, you're anticipating, we're visualizing positives. But we're also visualizing, I'm going to say negatives.

  What are the potential things that can happen and working through those? Because I think the conception of visualization for a lot of people is like the trophy and the winning goal or the winning basket or crossing the finish line and what it's going to feel like. Okay, sure. My athletes love to visualize it.

  finishing that 26. 2 miles and crossing the finish line, hitting stop on their watches and just like [00:37:00] flopping over, you know, it's amazing for all of the months of hard work that led to that.

  Kristin: Right. 

  Jess: But we also have to visualize what am I going to do if I don't get to poop before I start my race?

  How am I going to handle that?

  What am I going to do if suddenly my stomach is completely sour on race day and it's really hard to eat my breakfast? What's my plan? 

  Right? And so working through those things, so when they do happen, there is less panic. And there's like, okay, we've worked through this before. Not in [00:37:30] reality, but our brains have worked through it.

  So how are we going to handle it? And having that contrast of all of the anticipated obstacles of something. So that's what mental contrasting is, is anticipated obstacles in pursuit of a goal and the visualization of those. So the contrast of, Oh, how it's going to feel when I achieve my goal 

  versus how it's going to feel hitting all these roadblocks along the way. 

  Kristin: Right. And it's almost like we're preparing ourselves for those situations when things you cramp up. What is, what are you going to do? You can't panic and say, Oh my God, this [00:38:00] is taking time off. You have to say time off of what I want to be hitting. You have to just say like, okay, I have this cramp going to do this. I'm going to just wait a minute, let it play out, do whatever I have to do and know that I'm going to be able to start restart again.

  Jess: If we haven't done any kind of consideration of when stuff goes wrong, when it does happen, we're more likely to panic. You're like, oh, but I thought all about how it was going to feel when I won this thing, 

  when I finished and I was done. And I was like, I sat there and I went through every single like sense.

  I saw it. [00:38:30] I felt it. I smelled it. I, you know, tasted just the joy at the end. And then you're like, Oh,

  Kristin: right. It's going to be a bigger if that's not what happens. 

  Jess: Exactly. So I like that. I like just. The conversation around the anticipating obstacles, because this going forward in the game, in a race, but just goal setting in general, I don't think there's enough conversation around that, of like, hey, life happens, life is what happens when you're busy making those plans, when you're busy 

  setting those goals and trying to achieve them. how do you handle [00:39:00] that? 

  Kristin: things that I do with my coaches when we meet, we forecast any obstacles that we see coming up, right? And those obstacles can be winter break. What's going to happen to the girls when they come back? They're going to be lagging. We want to come back from winter break and get back into the swing of things as quickly as possible. exams, exam week is always going to come up. Right? We can't act surprised that everyone is freaking out because it's exam week or juniors are starting to get acceptance. Seniors are starting to get acceptance letters. So forecasting all of those things kind of [00:39:30] plays into the visualization preparation thing, right?

  You want to be aware of what's happening so that you can best prepare yourself and then not have to panic, especially for the things that always come up. Breakups, things like that, we can't anticipate so much. You can also plan for it when that happens. if you're able to control as much as you can ahead of the game. you're ahead of the game,

  Jess: it's not just games, goals, those things, but it's business, it's life, it's marriage. It's all of those areas that if we're, we're just thinking about, Oh, when this [00:40:00] happens 

  and then it's onto this next thing and la la la. Well, no,

  Kristin: right? 

  Jess: the universe always has other plans. 

  Kristin: Always. So that's why I always say, and I 

  try to practice as much as I preach it, controlling everything that I have control of, because I know that things are always going to happen. And I'm like a very structured person. I like to know exactly what's going to happen in my day, but I am at the point in my life where I finally have accepted that things are going to happen. Clients are going to cancel or need to reschedule or whatever the case may be. My son's going to get [00:40:30] sick. I'm going to get that phone call. And I used to be like fully derailed by that call, like, Oh God, like I had all this work to get done. Now I'm like, cool. I just get to spend time with my son now and the rest of that stuff is going to get done when it gets done. 

  Jess: That's a lot of cognitive flexibility, 

  Kristin: Yes, took a while to fully get there but it's amazing what you can train yourself to do.

  Jess: it's a continual practice because I fall very similar to how you are. And it took a long time because I was like, all right, I have X, Y, and Z to do today. Come hell or high water. I'm doing it. And then [00:41:00] things happen. And you're like, but I, can I let go of that? I don't. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. the control, the controllables.

  I, I like to think of this too. So two things with clients. we talk about hitting bare minimums or non negotiables. So when talking about like anticipating obstacles and those things. And so that's one thing like in our weekly check ins, like what obstacles are you anticipating this week? What is coming up in your schedule that will potentially derail you from Getting in the runs that you need to prepare for this marathon, or if we're working on nutrition eating the meals [00:41:30] that you have planned for yourself, or whatever it might be, right?

  what's gonna derail you? Okay, how do we anticipate working through those, and what are our daily non negotiables so that we're working towards those goals? And then hitting those. I mean, I've had a season, and I don't say this to complain, like, it's life, of just the universe being like, here are 27 things in the last 3 months, good luck.

  And so then for me, like, I had to start setting bare minimums for myself. No matter what, 20 minutes of movement a day. Ideally, more than a dog walk. Dog [00:42:00] walks will suffice, but if you could just walk out into your garage, grab some dumbbells, and move for 20 minutes, I promise you mentally and physically you're gonna feel so much better.

  it was daily, daily bare minimums of, at least a serving of plants in every meal I ate. So that I'm making sure it's not about like, Oh, I'm being super healthy. It's like, no, I'm getting micronutrients in because this is what's going to help nourish me. Right. And setting those things when life happens, because how we show up on those, those days, I'm going to say our worst days, but through these stressful trying times, enhances 

  how we're able to show up on [00:42:30] our best days. 

  Kristin: Exactly. And if you're able to eat more vegetables and you're able to make a longer than 20 minute walk, awesome, but you don't have to. So it just feels like, ah, this feels lighter. I can make this happen. So I do love that the non negotiable list. 

  Jess: Yeah. It makes it helpful. And it's nice to fall back on. And I think that that's something too, that if I'm like, okay, I'm setting myself up for success to have these small things and it's not, the list is not 10 things long. It's not okay. a hundred ounces of water in this many plants in this many minutes of movement in this [00:43:00] many hours of sleep and blah, blah, blah.

  Sure. Yeah. We, we inherently know those kinds of things to take care of ourselves, you know, but it's setting, okay. What, three things are most 

  important in this season that. 

  I want to hit every single, every single day.

  Kristin: Yep. 

  Jess: And then working from that, yeah.

  Kristin: Doing it short is another key component to the,

  success in that, 

  Jess: yeah, and it's just like making it, because we love to, say over complicate, 

  but we love to, yes, and I'm trying to, there's a better word I want, and I'm not sure what it is in this instance, but when we're [00:43:30] like, oh, well, I want to set non negotiables for myself, and that's great. Yes, I love the idea of 20 minutes of movement and a serving of plants with every meal and aiming to 100 grams of protein.

  Like, those have been my three. But if I'm doing that, it's really not that hard to think that I could drink 100 ounces of water a day and make sure I journal 10 minutes every night before bed and, and, and, and. Because all these things are quote unquote easy and simple. When the whole point is to give yourself some, I'm gonna say quick wins, but know that you're doing small things to take care of yourself in an [00:44:00] effort to 

  like, those skills. 

  Kristin: And not to go on too long about that but I feel like that's also, about what athletes do in that situation, right? Talking about, oh, it's, it's so simple. I can do it. Expectations. And I don't even want to complete tangent because I could talk about this for hours too. But you don't need to have the highest, most unrealistic expectations in order to find success or to challenge yourself.

  Athletes think that they need to, well, my expectations weren't high enough. They also weren't realistic enough, right? You need [00:44:30] to have a little bit of self awareness. And be realistic, you're non negotiables, if you've never had 100 grams of protein before, you need to start at a lower number, right? not you obviously, but an athlete.

  Just because they can do something doesn't mean, or that they have this idea of being able to do something, doesn't mean that they have to do it. So like have realistic expectations and understand that a lot of the times that's going to be more, it's going to do more for you than trying to to be someone that has to have these highest expectations.

  And even if I [00:45:00] don't make them, at least I expected the most of myself. It's like, no, it's not going to be long term the more you don't achieve those things. If you didn't cross off any of your non negotiables because you had a list of 20, It's not gonna set you up for the success, which is the purpose of the list,

  Jess: I like that in that tangent too hard on this, but it just makes me think about self compassion as a skill. So when we set those expectations for ourself and having again, Oh, I didn't set my expectations high enough. I didn't do whatever the self self compassion is that piece of [00:45:30] like, okay, I can create for myself a just manageable challenge in this, if we're talking about performance, But then it's also.

  Being realistic with ourselves and kind to ourselves through that process. So we're not necessarily letting ourselves off the hook of like, Oh, I'm not trying to achieve bigger things. I'm trying to build on that 

  self efficacy and those skills to reach that place. 

  Kristin: Yeah, I feel like a lot of athletes believe that if they reach their expectations, It's because they weren't set high enough. so they have to set high enough that they can't hit them 

  Jess: Yep. 

  Kristin: just so they can be [00:46:00] like, 

  Jess: this is what I'm striving towards.

  And you're like, mm, how does that work out for you?

  Kristin: Right. 

  Jess: Just curious. My gosh. Okay. So if there was one thing that you wanted the Sturdy Girl listeners to take away from this episode and from our conversation together, what would it be? 

  Kristin: you are in control. 

  Jess: I like that. Simple. 

  Control the controllables. 

  Kristin: it's a game changer. I'll tell your listeners right now, make a list of things that you can control and what you can't control. Forget literally everything that you can't [00:46:30] control for the next seven days. Focus on all the things you can control and then let us know how you're feeling and what you actually accomplish.

  Jess: it's such a good reminder because I think a lot of people listening will be like Well, yeah, I know. Inherently we do, but we need that reminder 

  regularly of what we're actually in control of 

  Kristin: Yes. We know, we know a lot of things, right? We could also work out on our own, but I have a whole list of people that come to see me every week because it's not as easy as that, right? You know what to do, but it's doing it. So, putting the work, taking control, [00:47:00] and making the right choices for, for what you want to do.

  Jess: I like that. Okay, fun questions unrelated to anything coaching. Do you have a favorite kind of cookie? 

  Kristin: if I had to choose, I would go oatmeal raisin, very unpopular opinion. With walnuts.

  Jess: I am learning to be less against raisins in things in recent times. For a long time I was very against it, so.

  Kristin: think those are the things I like raisins in, to be honest. Like, I'm not a raisin person, but for some reason a warm oatmeal raisin [00:47:30] cookie just hits the spot.

  Jess: Is there another dessert that you'd be keen on? Because you're like, if I had to pick a cookie. 

  Kristin: I 

  like, like, an apple pie would be my go to. 

  Jess: Nice. With ice cream or no?

  Kristin: Vanilla ice cream, of Okay, okay. What is one activity that brings you joy and takes attention away from your body?

  love to read. 

  Jess: so then the follow up question then is, 

  what is The number one book you've recommended or given as a gift? 

  Kristin: Um, the first one is gonna be, like so cliche, but it's the Catcher in The Rye Catcher in the Rye. like the book in high school that actually [00:48:00] turned me into a reader. and then a book that I've actually recently either given or recommended to a lot of clients and friends is The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo. 

  Jess: Hands down one of my favorite books I've read in 

  the last, like, six years. 

  Kristin: so good. I've told like, five people in the last two months and they're like, you need to give us more book recommendations, which is my nightmare because I'm like, I don't read a lot of good books, guys.

  Jess: people will ask for book recommendations and reading preferences are so particular and I read across so many genres [00:48:30] anymore that I'm like, I mean, do you like smut? Do you like fantasy? Do you want some sci fi? Some thrillers? Do you want a rom com? tell me what you want here, because I like a lot of things, and I don't want to, like, accidentally give you, like, a romanticy series and have you be like, no, I was looking for wizards and warlocks, not a bunch of, not a bunch of, like, spicy scenes here, but okay.

  Yeah, it's a hard thing, I think, too, with, like, recommended or giving as a gift. I've loved these interviews on Sturdy Girl because it spans everything from [00:49:00] like your favorite fiction read to people who are like you need to read like X, Y, and Z nonfiction book because it's going to change your life.

  And then I'm like, Oh, I just got myself a book recommendation. Thank you. okay. And then last fun question. Do you have a favorite beverage? 

  Kristin: Um, I think the things that I drink the most would be water and beer. So, I would say beer could be my, my favorite beverage. I don't like anything else other than water and beer. 

  Jess: That's fair. Do you have a favorite kind of beer? 

  Kristin: I'm pretty boring. right now, [00:49:30] I'm in my shipyard pumpkin head era because fall. But um, yeah, I'm like light beers, nothing crazy, but I do like a pumpkin beer. 

  Jess: It is amazing to me, the amount of breweries and microbreweries out there, 

  Kristin: crazy. Like in towns that I like would never imagine have all these breweries. I'm like, what? There's a, like, there's one like behind my house. I'm like, where, where did this come from? They're popping up everywhere, which is not a bad thing, but.

  Jess: What's wild, it's really cool to see too, when I was in college over a decade [00:50:00] ago, good lord someone I grew up with went to school for fermentation, it was like beer, like beer making was, and I forget what the term for their like degree was, but it was beer making and like getting into the industry and then they have, they have degrees for people in the wine industry and it's just crazy to see how cool it is.

  I don't know how much it has grown, because I don't feel like it was as much of a thing, you know, growing up,

  it's exploded. It's really cool. Okay, last 

  question for you. Where can audiences find you and learn more? 

  Kristin: I'm always on [00:50:30] Instagram. My handle is at coach Kristen Tullo and Kristen is spelled with two I's, no E's. So it's K R I S T I N. my website is thinkstrongplaystrong. com. yeah, I mean, I'm always on Instagram posting. I try to do it every day. Something helpful for athletes and coaches. To, um, improve their mental performance. 

  Jess: Props on the consistency.

  Kristin: I 

  try. 

  Jess: been my, my weak point lately is, is showing up on 

  social, so

  that's awesome. 

  Kristin: be, it can be a lot. 

  Jess: [00:51:00] It can, and I feel like the landscape has, has changed quite a bit. I think for me it's just been the like, where is my time best served right now? And so I've been doing a lot of podcast interviews and I still edit everything and so that's where like, my time is been. 

  Kristin: for sure. That 

  Jess: That's true. 

  Kristin: much time. You don't, You don't have time for Instagram. 

  Jess: I show up and I post and then I get off there and

  try to, try to, keep it fun. But thank you so much for this conversation, I had a great time.

  Kristin: Yes, likewise. Thanks so much for having me. 

  Jess: Thank you friends for listening to another episode of Sturdy Girl, we [00:51:30] will catch you next week. 

47. Bouncing Forward: Redefining Motherhood and Body Image with Claire, Mental Health Counselor

In this episode of Sturdy Girl, Jess welcomes Claire, a counselor and parent educator, to discuss the challenges and joys of early parenthood. Claire shares her mission to make early parenthood enjoyable and less overwhelming through her online program, Beyond Birth. She discusses the unrealistic societal pressures of 'bounce back culture,' emphasizes the importance of postpartum support, and introduces the concept of 'bouncing forward.' Claire also shares her personal experiences with pregnancy, childbirth, and body image, highlighting the importance of community and mental health support for new parents. The conversation covers various aspects of parenting, including the support roles of partners and the impact of societal expectations. Claire encourages new parents to seek help and acknowledges the emotional and physical transformations of parenthood.

Connect with Claire HERE.

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• Full Transcript

  Jess: [00:00:00] Hello friends and welcome back to another episode of Sturdy Girl. Today we have Claire on to talk all things bounce back culture, parenting, all the things. I'm really excited. I'm actually going to introduce her before she says hello. Claire is a counselor and parent educator who's on a mission to make early parenthood way more fun and way less shit. I think that, like, is that all the intro you need? There we go.

  Claire: Yeah.

  Jess: She's worked with hundreds of parents struggling in silence and blaming themselves for finding parenthood [00:00:30] hard when it is really effing hard. She feels strongly about supporting mothers to value themselves, their needs, and their time in a world that wants them to be pushed to their limits and be grateful for it.

  Claire specializes in helping first time parents navigate the wild ride of the newborn days with her online program, Beyond Birth. Ooh, online curriculum? I love this. Forget the generic baby prep, she dives deep into the real stuff that actually matters, because there's only so much a cute swaddle can do for you when you're drowning in postpartum.

  As a mother and recovering perfectionist, [00:01:00] which we've already talked about, amazing how that comes up, Claire knows firsthand the pressure to get it right and how tough postpartum and early parenthood can be. Her approach is inclusive as fuck, trauma informed and sprinkled with humor, because if you can't laugh through the chaos, then you Then what can you do?

  Claire's the friend you wish you had when you first saw those two pink lines. Through Beyond Birth, she's building a community of parents who feel genuinely supported in the messy magic of new parenthood, because, as Claire always says, parenting is too difficult and too beautiful to do alone. Claire, [00:01:30] hello!

  Claire: Hi, thank you. Wow,

  Jess: so, I told you, like, we don't have kids yet. we're trying, which feels like a whole world in and of itself, but I am such an info junkie, and so I've been reading these books, like one's called Expecting Better, it's like all the things through pregnancy that, common questions, but it's written by someone who's an economist, and so it's all like data driven, and the studies and research, so it's like, okay yeah, you're gonna hear old wives tales about [00:02:00] this, but here's what's real, and then the follow up book is called Crib Sheet, and so it's everything of like, From when the baby is born and you're in the hospital to, I think, like, toddler years and beyond.

  So, like, when should my child be watching a screen? When does this make sense? And so, reading your bio, I'm like, oh my gosh, yeah, you're like the parenting BFF. I love this.

  Claire: And yeah, I haven't heard of either of those books, so I'll have to check them out.

  Jess: I'm blanking on the author right now, but it's rad because she and her husband both are economists, so it's a [00:02:30] very, like, data driven versus, like, emotionally driven. And it's really, like, there's a lot of humor throughout it, but I like that info, so when they're like, actually, here are the studies that talk about formula feeding versus breastfeeding, and all of the BS that you hear, but here's the information.

  Make your, make your informed decision.

  Claire: Because I think sometimes we don't want to give people information. There's this whole culture of like, let's not tell people before they become parents, the real truth, because we don't want to scare them. There's this whole thing about we [00:03:00] don't want to scare

  people. 

  Jess: it's magical. It's just wonderful.

  Claire: yeah, and then the baby comes along and we're like, okay, you're never going to sleep again.

  And they're like, what? And I think there needs to be more conversation where we are just real with people and we say, yep, it's hard, but it's also amazing. And it can be both. And let's tell you the truth and let's get you prepared because you can handle it.

  Jess: And helping you navigate the chaos because inevitably, try as you might, there's chaos.

  [00:03:30] Yeah, Okay. So you have your online course and you're a counselor. So tell me a little bit more about what you do on the day to day. What does that look like for you?

  Claire: I think going back a little so when you were talking there and and talking about me being a recovering perfectionist, just to highlight where I've come from and where I am now. So when I was trying to get pregnant, I had a couple of friends who got pregnant on the first go, and that was probably a really not Great to have around me because that became my expectation that we'll just [00:04:00] try and the first month we'll be pregnant.

  And we weren't. I literally took us to a fertility doctor

  After one?

  month and was like, why am I not pregnant? Something's wrong. We need to like test our bodies and see what's going on here. And we need to do all the things and we need to make sure we have like the healthiest sperm in the world. And you know, all the things it was unhinged.

  Right. And my partner, like credit to him just went along with it because I think he just knew like I can't challenge her. I just need to like [00:04:30] lean into this crazy. And so, it ended up taking a little while longer, but it was fine. But that was the kind of mentality I had at that time where it was like, if I plan, if I do all the research, if I do, everything correctly and do my part, then anything I want to do in life will happen, right?

  That's how it works. You do the right things and then you get the end result. And parenting and pregnant, starting in pregnancy is just this massive letting go of that and this huge unlearning and shedding all of the [00:05:00] control and surrender and all the things. And so, yeah I had my son, I was telling you, I fell pregnant with my son eventually in the first week of the first COVID lockdown, which was really interesting timing.

  And so had my whole pregnancy in lockdown almost because I'm in Melbourne, Australia, where we had some of the longest, strictest lockdowns in the world. Which was a blessing and a curse, because actually being pregnant in lockdown was, was pretty great, because I got to work from home, I got to work from my bed, I got [00:05:30] to completely rest, and that was another lesson in surrender.

  I was so exhausted when I was pregnant and sick, and I found it really hard And I think that was another thing that took me by surprise because I just thought I'll nail this. 

  Jess: It can't be that bad, 

  right? 

  Claire: yeah, I'm not going to be one of those people who's Being sick for months on end, like I'm going to feel great.

  I'm going to keep going to the gym. I'm going to keep doing all the things I did before. And it was not like that. It really smacked me in the face. And I had to just surrender [00:06:00] to the fact that I was not in control of this process whatsoever. It was all just happening within me and I just had to let go.

  And yeah, then. Becoming a mother just, you know, it changes you so, so, profoundly. And I was working in mental health already, but I wasn't specializing in parenthood. Although I was always really interested in childhood. And I'd always done a lot of work with children, but becoming a parent really shifted my focus, I guess, in my career into that space.

  And [00:06:30] pretty much ever since. My son was a baby. I've, I've worked with other parents. In the counseling space. And now I also work with them on birth as well and unpacking all of the things that can surround what happens in our birth experience. So, I don't know if I've actually answered your question, but yeah, I just my focus is parents and parenthood and matricence and the huge transformation that we go through when we become parents, because I don't think it's still talked about enough or honored enough and it's definitely not supported 

  enough. 

  Jess: It's [00:07:00] just like, oh, you'll figure it out. okay. You got this. okay. So my question for you, I want to talk about so many things related to parenthood, motherhood, all of that. But when you are working on this, in the mental health space with parents, are you typically seeing couples together? Are you working more so with moms?

  Like, what does that look like?

  Claire: yeah, so I'm not a couples therapist, so I mostly work with mothers, and that's not necessarily by design that is mothers are the ones who are coming forward and asking for [00:07:30] that help, but I do work with couples in my postpartum prep program beyond birth which is so awesome because, yeah, I work with couples of all genders and all family kind of setups and it's really nice to be able to bring that other parent.

  in, if there is one, because I'm so used to just talking to this one person, usually the mother, usually the person who's carrying all the mental load and all the responsibilities, who's having this huge transformation kind of [00:08:00] physically and emotionally. And now I get to actually Bring in their partner who's usually their main support person and bring them along in the journey too.

  So not only helping them support her better, but helping them get the help that they need as well. Because often partners are just really forgotten in this space and men in particular can really struggle in those early months with a baby and not reach out for help. And there's not enough services for them.

  There's not enough. that [00:08:30] specialize in what they go through. So it's been really nice this year to actually work with more partners and more men and just, bring them in a lot along this 

  journey because they go through a huge transformation too. 

  Jess: Yeah, I was gonna say, that's fantastic, and that's kind of why I asked how you work with, like, working mainly with moms, but having that postpartum prep and bringing in the other half of that couple, having that person who's also the support, because navigating that is hard and complicated and there's so much to that. So if you're [00:09:00] working with just the moms, other side of that, the other half of their partnership, they're coming home and they're saying, okay, here's the things we talked through. Here's what you need to be doing to help me or something like that, right? And so when you can have that, both of them together, right?

  Claire: For sure. And one of the reasons I even started the program in the first place was because I saw there were other programs out there to help people prepare for this time of life, but almost all of them, in fact, I couldn't find any that were marketed towards couples. They were all aimed at mothers. And I just [00:09:30] thought, aren't we doing enough?

  we're doing so much as mothers already, and we're expected to take on the load of all of this preparation and all of this learning as well. And I think it's about time that we called partners. In, and we called men in particular to a high standard in parenting, just like we hold women to, and we get them involved because actually what I've found is that they want to be involved and they want to support their partners, but they just don't know how, 

  and not enough people are creating space for them to do that.

  So 

  Jess: That's really cool. And yeah, it's usually the like, not knowing. What [00:10:00] to do or how to support and a lot of times like the new moms like I don't know either We're not sleeping. We're in this crazy zombie haze. Like I don't know what to tell you

  Claire: Yeah, there's this kind of misconception that motherhood comes naturally and actually it's a learned skill and we are just figuring it out as we go and getting to know our babies as we go. And it's the same for fathers. And so, I totally agree. we need to do it that way. 

  Jess: and I mean, a lot of that is like that like f around and find out mentality I mean, I feel like in [00:10:30] just like I had mentioned before we hit record We have this great little community on the street. We live on there's five other families that have kiddos and to be tangentially part of them raising these littles because they're all under the age of five, just about the time that you are getting used to the phase that these kids are in, they change. Just about the time you're getting used to, oh, little one just learned to crawl, just kidding, oh, they can walk now, oh, just kidding, now they can run, oh, just kidding, they know how to open their baby gate now, like, you go through these phases [00:11:00] are like, Oh, this is their sleeping rhythm. Oh, just kidding.

  We're in sleep regression. Like having that where you just it's semi controlled chaos and then learning to navigate. So I think that's really cool. I think where I want to focus is talking about moms. So, maybe there's another conversation to be had about dads and all the support for the other half.

  But, leaning into this conversation about body image, about so much stuff that gets jumbled in that phase of life. I think about how revered pregnant bodies are, how [00:11:30] often like strangers want to come up and like touch a pregnant belly, and all of that. And then the second that you have your kid, and it's all about the baby, it's no longer about you as the parent, as the mom, now it's how are you gonna get your body back?

  How are you gonna bounce back? how are you gonna get your body back and return to what you were doing before? again, not a parent, have seen friends go through this, and the pressures that are put on them are the kinds of messages that are put out around that. Like, can we talk about bounce back culture, and how that relates to body image, and all of the things, like, I want to set the [00:12:00] stage for you.

  Claire: Yeah, for sure. Like, I've had to do a lot research and now and again I'll, I'll search on social media. I'll just search the word postpartum because I'm looking for something for whatever I'm working with, with and oh, whenever you search that word, Most of the results are here's the workout you can do to lose the baby weight.

  Here's what I did at home. And, and, you know, I now have a better body than I had before my baby was born. And it's all workouts, 

  it's weight loss, it's diets, it's all the [00:12:30] things.

  And. 

  Jess: it's all about the, how do you change your physical, appearance to what You were before. Never mind all the things your body and brain have been through to get to where you are right now. You just grew a human inside you.

  Claire: and the message is also do it fast.

  Don't hang around. Like, get onto it now. You can start working out like as soon as you're cleared by the doctor, go do it. And there's no honoring the fact that you're probably still not sleeping. You're probably, you know, still trying to figure [00:13:00] out how to care for a baby, how to feed a baby.

  All the things, including your, yeah, your identity, your hormones, it's everything. And the fact that it took you nine full months to grow that baby, or babies, and, you can't just snap back into a different way of being immediately, like you need time. And our culture isn't very good at giving us time.

  Everything is about productivity, hustle culture, like fast, fast, fast.

  Jess: Instant gratification. 

  Claire: Yeah, exactly. And [00:13:30] postpartum is just a time that really requires slowness, and stillness, and connection, and bonding, and all of those things. It's just shifting into this space that is the absolute opposite of what our culture is. Yeah, there's just not enough space for it. So bounce back culture is huge for mothers and women and It starts like what we were talking about earlier. It starts even before you have your baby So the body image stuff really kicks in I think as soon as you even [00:14:00] start to think about trying to conceive So you start to be really focused on maybe not what your body looks like at that point but What can my body do?

  Can I get pregnant? Am I having fertility problems? sex becomes different because it doesn't become about just pleasure anymore. You've gone your whole life probably trying to avoid getting pregnant and now you suddenly have to switch into like, Let's actually try and do this and then that kind of changes the dynamic sexually as well.

  And so, yeah, there's just so many layers to it. And I [00:14:30] think right from the get go, we're not supported enough in our feelings around that. So if we are struggling with fertility, if we do have losses if our hormones and things start to become a problem, then there's this secrecy around it, there's shame around it, there's you've got to hide it, you've got to kind of grieve privately, you still have to go to work, you still have to do all the things, and yeah, there's just not enough space to really Tune into your body during that time, I don't think, and your body can really quickly [00:15:00] start to become the enemy if it doesn't do what you're hoping it would do.

  So that's a whole, like, tangled mess. And then, like what you said in pregnancy, there's, all these expectations. In so many ways, like even what you should look like, what shape your belly should be like, there's a perfect kind of pregnant belly that's like round and you know, but not too big, but not too small, because then you don't look pregnant enough, like so many clients come to me in pregnancy and say, Oh, you know, people keep saying, you're not very big, your [00:15:30] baby must be really small, or you're Huge!

  Like, are you sure you're not expecting twins? And you just can't even get that right. Like, if your belly doesn't look exactly as someone expects it to, then it's somehow wrong or it can be commented on. And yeah, they touch you. There's even this thing where you just suddenly become really visible in public that you might not be comfortable with or used to.

  Like, you walk down the street and people immediately notice you because you're pregnant and people feel that they can comment on that. And sometimes that can [00:16:00] be wonderful, don't get me wrong, I actually quite enjoyed some of that when I was pregnant, but there also was commentary that was really unwelcome and unhelpful and yeah, it just suddenly becomes, your body kind of becomes public property a little bit, which is really weird and can be triggering for a 

  lot of, a lot of women. 

  Jess: there's so much resonance here of just that like public property when you're going through pregnancy and that hyper visibility is, it's wild. Like there are good things, like you said you enjoyed it, but a lot of times it's the awkward when like perfect [00:16:30] strangers want to comment about the size of your belly or ask you all kinds of weird and invasive questions or touch you and you're like, how about not. 

  Claire: I remember like two or three times walking down the street pregnant and someone feeling the need to like give me a lecture on, on what I was doing. I remember one weird time where I was like walking down the street, eating a granola bar because I felt sick and it helped me to like keep the nausea away.

  And this, elderly man, started shouting at me in the middle of the street, You shouldn't be walking and eating because [00:17:00] if you choke, or if you are not concentrating, and you trip and fall, you could harm your baby. And it was like, okay, that was weird. And I kind of just put it down to, okay, maybe that, that's just kind of a weird guy.

  But then things like that happened a few more times where people were like, Stop texting and walking, you're gonna trip and harm your baby and, and things like that. So, yeah, it's just this complete entitlement that people feel to tell you how you should live because you're growing a baby and, and obviously your body gives that away, like, you can't hide the fact [00:17:30] that you're pregnant towards the end anyway.

  So people can see it, people feel the 

  need to comment on it, and it's just a 

  whole weird thing. 

  Jess: I think it's interesting too, kind of what you were saying where it's like, even just like our body image shifting, even when we decide to start trying to start a family. Because then the conversation, like you said, if it's fertility issues or, I love this just in the context of like, when we talk about body image a lot, in general, we talk about focusing on the functionality piece of our bodies versus our appearance.

  So when you're like, but when we talk about, trying [00:18:00] to conceive, it's talking about like, when we get so hyper focused on the functionality of like, can I get pregnant or not? What's wrong with me?

  Then I thought about this too of like, then suddenly when you're deciding it's time, it's also like, am I eating well to support getting pregnant or like during pregnancy, am I eating well to support this pregnancy?

  Am I doing this right type of exercise? Am I sleeping enough? I've stopped drinking alcohol. It's not going to make me more likely to conceive. I've decreased my caffeine consumption. I've, you know, and you go through this list of things that then kind of come back into that relationship with [00:18:30] ourselves too, where you're like, Okay, everything's like in service to the baby or the potential for one.

  Claire: Absolutely. Yeah, it's a huge pressure. Even, you're told, you know, don't be stressed, don't be anxious, because baby's mental health begins at conception, and if you're stressed, you're going to birth this child who's anxious. And then, of course, someone telling you not to be anxious. Just does the opposite.

  there can be just so much like self blame and self pressure that comes at that time, I think, which is really [00:19:00] unhelpful. And it just continues through birth. Obviously, birth is a whole thing on its own. And then, you beyond, you know, you, if you want to breastfeed, for example, and that's a challenge.

  The self blame and the shame just amps up even more. And the feeling that your body has failed you. When really it's usually the systems around us that have failed us, not our bodies, we're just not supported enough. Breastfeeding is another thing that there's a myth that it's natural and therefore it's easy.

  And it's not, it's a skill that you need [00:19:30] to learn. And usually like, In the past, we would have been taught that skill through other people breastfeeding around us. And because we've lost that sense of community in that village, we're trying to do it in isolation. And, you know, as women, we're really good at blaming ourselves for things that aren't our fault.

  So when it doesn't work out, we go straight to, My body's defective, I couldn't do this. Rather than, culture doesn't support mothers. 

  Jess: absolutely. It's like, oh, I've failed. Or there's some people that just can't support [00:20:00] breastfeeding for one reason or another. And so then they're supplementing with formula. And then there is that shame and the self blame and all of that. that's hard. I think too, in the realm of breastfeeding as well is like, There is a hesitance from some moms to maybe return to, their pre pregnancy exercising.

  So let's say we do, I mean, we talked about like, oh, the bounce back culture, like, get back to exercise as soon as you're cleared. But I think about like, I love to run and lift and all of those things, and returning to that, there is a hesitance to [00:20:30] work out because then you're potentially jeopardizing like, milk supply, and who are you to be selfish and want to move and exercise your body if that's going to jeopardize how you're feeding your baby, and then finding that like, happy medium in that too.

  Claire: absolutely. And, for me personally, I was really, really fit and strong at the point where I conceived my son. Mm hmm. And Aside from the first few months of sickness, I then did keep lifting weights throughout pregnancy and felt really good. And again, had this expectation like, [00:21:00] okay, once I'm postpartum, I can get back to that.

  And I was amazed at how long it took my body to feel capable and, and ready for that kind of exercise again. And honestly, it took until my son was about two years old before I could start regularly lifting weights and feeling good in that again. Even just getting up off the floor was difficult for I'd say like the first nine months of his life.

  And that was not something that I expected to experience, but that is so common. our internal organs have [00:21:30] moved all around our, our muscles have separated. Everything is shifted. Our ligaments are looser. There's so much that needs to come back together. And again, it just can't be rushed. Yeah, and so I think bounce back culture also, on a really physical level forces us to do things that our body isn't ready to do.

  And I don't know what it's like in the US, but I assume it's similar to here where, you know, women aren't given automatically pelvic health. support after they give birth either. So, you know, there's all sorts of things that go on [00:22:00] with our pelvic organs, where going out for a run or something can actually be harmful because we might have a prolapse that we don't know that we have, or there's some healing that hasn't happened yet where running is going to really exacerbate whatever injury is there.

  So yeah, it just, I guess, bounce back, bounce back, get back into fitness. All of those messages, they just. Again, just don't give us the time, don't give us the space, don't allow us to go and explore what's actually going on uniquely in our bodies. Some people will be ready to [00:22:30] go for a run a few weeks after they give birth and they'll feel fantastic and other people it might take two years and both of those things are normal but one is definitely viewed as superior to the other and as a personal if it does hmm. 

  Jess: bounce back culture is bullshit. We want to push back on it. you had mentioned something called bouncing forward as a reframe for new moms. So tell me more about this because we very well established how little time there [00:23:00] is and how much our culture pushes for moms to return to their former bodies and their former activity levels and less of a compassionate understanding.

  so tell me more.

  Claire: Yeah. I just really love to reframe this for people because I think once you transform through parenthood, there's no going back and that's how it's supposed to be, right? It's this really transformative experience. So there's, there's a process called matrescence that we go through as women, which is similar to adolescence [00:23:30] in the, in the teen years where our bodies and our brains go through transformation.

  Enormous shifts that can be, you know, you can see it on a brain scan, the difference in the brain of someone who has just become a mother. And postpartum and early parenthood. It radically transforms you. And so I don't think the goal should ever be to go back to who you were before, because how can you, you know, you've just been through this really profound experience.

  You're responsible for this little human that you've created. And of [00:24:00] course, you're supposed to grow from that. Yeah, I think the goal is wrong. The goal should be to, I like to call it either bouncing forward or growing forward rather than looking back. it's like this rebirth that happens.

  You get stronger, you get more in tune with your instincts, you find your power. I find a lot of women talk about that, that they find this inner confidence and strength that they didn't have before. Because they need to advocate for this little person that can't advocate for themselves. [00:24:30] So, I think that should be celebrated.

  It's just an amazing process that you go through. You know, lots of your childhood stuff comes up. Lots of things that you think you've worked through come back to the surface. There's so much growing and learning and yes, strengthening that goes on and I just think we need to celebrate it. We need to support it.

  We don't need to look back, we need to look forward, and we need to go, wow, look what this woman has done, you know? She has just done this amazing thing, she has grown and birthed a whole human, she's [00:25:00] now looking after this human and growing as a person herself, like, Let's just put her on a pedestal, because what she's doing is amazing.

  Yeah, and so I think when the focus is all on our bodies, and rather than this identity shift, we're just looking in the wrong place, and it's this weird, like, I think it's just so tied in with patriarchal stuff, where we just, we just dismiss. Really profound things that women go through and just want to put them back in a box, or we just, we don't want to see them grow and strengthen and [00:25:30] find their voice.

  We want them to kind of sit down and shut up. And I think I had something in my bio around, you know, we want to, we want to push mothers to their limits and then then be grateful for it. that's the culture we're in. And it's so wrong. So yeah, I like to just really, when I do counselling with parents, I like to really honour that matressence process that they are going through and just really focus on the growth and the 

  growing forward and not the, not the looking back.

  Jess: We're not meant to go back. I mean, I think that's rad, just that [00:26:00] conversation bouncing forward as you're saying, like, you were not the person you were. You may return to interests like lifting or running or those like physical movement things, the things that you like, but you're a parent now. 

  You're responsible for another human.

  You just went through this amazing and also insane process. You're not meant to be the same. So there's no going back. I love that. And also, I feel like we could have a whole podcast episode about just, like, patriarchal notions when it comes to women and motherhood and all the things. 

  Claire: Yeah.

  Jess: Until we [00:26:30] connected, I hadn't thought about connecting with someone, with a counselor specifically, for anything, parenting related. I have a therapist and I've had the same therapist for many years and that's just generalized therapy. And obviously, like, as I go through, Us trying to conceive and then I'm sure through pregnancy and those things, those conversations will be, will come up, but to specialize in that is amazing.

  And I, I really appreciate just the complexity of all of those pieces. Like we touched on before, when you're talking about the support of the other partner, when we're talking about working [00:27:00] through becoming this, becoming a parent and everything that goes into that, having childhood things. As soon as you said that, I'm like, huh, what childhood things are going to come up for me?

  you're worried like, Okay, what didn't I work through? Or like, am I going to be questioning my parenting style and being like, Oh, is this like my parents? Is this different than my parents? Do I want it to be different than them? What does that look like? 

  Claire: it's nice to be able to have someone to hold your hand through it who works in this space every day because although every person's experience of it is, is unique, [00:27:30] obviously, there are so many pieces to it that are universal. But Yeah. But a huge part of my job really as a counsellor is validating for people that you are normal.

  Other people feel this way too, because so much of us just carry it around secretly and feel shame and feel like we're failing and feel like we're not normal and, You know, when you see parents, you see them outside of their own home usually, and they're out with their kids and everything looks great.

  And you might see the odd toddler have a [00:28:00] meltdown or something, but, but generally what you see is the good parts. And then of course, on social media, you really see the good parts 

  of people's lives. And so yeah, and there's so much advice on social media and so many parenting accounts now, which have their pros and cons, but There's this perception still with a lot of mothers that everyone else is finding this easy, everyone else is nailing this, and I'm the only one that's struggling. And, and that comes with the body image stuff too, like every other mom seems to be able to go to [00:28:30] the gym and They look great and they feel good about their body after birth and I just feel like I don't even know whose body this is.

  And it's just about having someone that understands this is a really key specific point in someone's lifespan. And it brings up really unique stuff and really unique challenges. So 

  yeah, it's nice to be able to hold people through that 

  Jess: we are creating that safe space through it all. Absolutely. Okay, talking about body image, I want to turn this back to your personal experience, if you're open to sharing, of just [00:29:00] what was your body image experience like as a parent? and maybe some things that you have done for yourself to work through that, through pregnancy, through postpartum, through, you know, early parenthood, anything like that.

  Like, I'd love to hear more from you, especially as a counselor with mental health background too, where it's like there's that knowledge and action gap where maybe you know what to do and then it's like the application. So I'm like, I want to know what, what was the application like for you?

  Claire: For sure. And I always say to people, like, I'm a counselor, but I'm also a [00:29:30] human. I can tell people things and I can hold other people through their stuff, but I need to be held through my stuff too. And I have my own therapist too. So yeah, and I, I just turned 40 this year. And so, you know, I'm like an elder millennial, I guess.

  Yeah, I, you know, I grew up in a time where the discussion on bodies was really toxic and that came from the wider culture and it also came from within my own home. And so I had really worked hard, I think, before I had my son to find [00:30:00] that place of body acceptance. And it was always a work in progress and there were definitely like, backslides with that.

  But when I found, so I've, I've done powerlifting for a few years now. And when I found that, that was like a real game changer for me because it, it became about what can I do? How can I feel strong? How can I, you know, I found this camaraderie with the powerlifters at the gym and for once exercise became something to do.

  That felt like it was really honoring my body rather than punishing it. [00:30:30] And just really enjoyed the feeling of being strong and capable. And that kind of bled into my, my mental health too. Yeah. And then during pregnancy, it was like, I don't know, I kind of wondered whether. Being pregnant and getting bigger would be hard because when you've spent your whole life being told you should be smaller, I thought, hmm, I wonder how it's going to feel to be bigger.

  But actually I loved it. It was like, you know, I grew up being like, suck in your belly. And there was always a thing about [00:31:00] bellies and having the permission for a belly to just grow and get bigger and be proud of that. And to not even be able to suck it in even if you wanted to. It was really, like, liberating.

  It felt great. And I felt sexy, I felt beautiful. Yeah, it was surprising to me. And then Yeah, I didn't have a good birth. I pretty much had the ultimate birth that it was on my, I do not want this list. Which ended up in a C section. And the [00:31:30] recovery from that was really hard. So there was a whole thing around that, around my body failed me.

  I couldn't birth my child. I had to have him. Cut out of me essentially which I've done a lot of healing around and that was kind of what, inspired me to get into the birth debriefing space and do that work that I do with parents now too, because I went through that myself. But yeah, so now I have this scar that reminds me of that every single day when I look in the mirror and the way that my belly kind of healed around that [00:32:00] scar means.

  that it looks very different to what it looked like before. And my baby was also enormous. He was like, over nine pounds. And so, I've got the stretch marks, I've got the scar, the excess skin, all the things, my belly button's a different shape, like, When I look in the mirror at my belly, it looks very, very different.

  And I've had to do a lot of work around feeling grateful for that rather than ashamed of that, because obviously there's a reason and the reason is my son and I [00:32:30] wouldn't trade him for the world. But It kind of set me back a little bit, I think, in the work that I had done on myself with my own body image.

  I found it really difficult to even let my husband see me without clothes on. And I've breastfed my son for a long time too, and so there's been changes there as well. And so, yeah, it's been a long journey for me, and I don't think I'm quite at the place of body acceptance that I was before I had my son, but it certainly forced me to confront those [00:33:00] little pieces, I guess, that hadn't been fully worked through before that I thought had been.

  And yeah, to focus on that piece around feeling the gratitude for what my body did, not being so focused on, on what it looks like. Yeah, it's tough. 

  Jess: that is just like an absolute journey. And I was thinking to you when you were just talking about, okay, I thought I had done the work on body acceptance. Pre pregnancy, and then feeling good through pregnancy, like that is so rad because that is something that I haven't delved too deep into as far as [00:33:30] like research or just common experience with people, but I too am a millennial raised in that culture of be smaller, suck in your stomach, the root of all insecurities comes to how much your stomach sticks out, those things, And I've worked through a lot of that. from my general understanding of myself, I worked through a lot of that. And I feel like there's always more work to be done, but that body acceptance piece, has come a long ways. But it's so interesting talking through like pregnancy and feeling good and feeling sexy. And then you're like postpartum, like my body [00:34:00] felt wrecked.

  My stomach looks so much different than when it was before. Okay. How do I handle this? okay, there, there's a lot to be learned here. And there's a lot of re learning how to accept myself now that my body doesn't look the way it used to And I think that's really interesting because I was just talking to a client about something called mental contrasting.

  And with the thought of like, you know, when we, we set a goal, And they talk about visualization and thinking about that's one way to help work towards your goal. there are ways within body image [00:34:30] coaching that we talk about visualization for how we want to feel and like forecasting when we envision our future selves, how do they act?

  how do they carry themselves? What do they wear? Well, how do the kind of things do they say to themselves? You go through those things. But part of mental contrasting is like, what do you do when things don't go the way you want them to? What do you do when obstacles come up?

  So you want to achieve, like, this is your future self and this is how they look and act and do and feel. But what happens when Uncle Henry at dinner, makes a comment about how much you're eating [00:35:00] or about your body size or whatever? How do you respond? And so working through those outcomes.

  immediately my brain was like, how would you even prepare yourself for like, what are you going to do when your body doesn't look like, look or feel like your own anymore? Like that is a big part of that postpartum experience is recognizing like, it's not going to be the same. And maybe it is for some people.

  Maybe there is, like, once they're all healed up and it's okay. But more often than not, there's stretch marks, there may be scars, our boobs are different, there's different fat [00:35:30] distribution because of giving birth. those are all things that happen and then it's, okay, how do we handle that?

  And keep moving forward with our relationship with ourselves.

  Claire: And I think part of it is, we think about, okay, I'm the influence for my child here on, how they're going to view bodies as they grow. And for me personally, anyway, my son has been a big part of my journey to that, getting back to that acceptance place again, because My scar in particular, he thinks is [00:36:00] amazing.

  He is like, wow, that's where I came out. And I've got pictures from when he was first like pulled out. And he just finds the whole thing like to be miraculous. And so that has been so helpful for me too, to see it through his eyes and I even have like a video in Australia, they have a protocol in the hospital where they have to bring you your after birth and show it to you.

  For some reason, I think like that's something that a lot of people wanted to see in the past and didn't [00:36:30] get. and weirdly in my like drugged out state, I've decided it would be a good idea to film that. And so I have this video of the nurse kind of talking through my placenta, and here's the cord, and here's where the baby was wrapped in, and here's the other side of it, and my son the moment is in this phase where he wants to watch that video.

  Every single night before he goes to sleep. That's like his bedtime routine that he's chosen. But yeah, it's just this thing where he's figuring out how babies are made and how they grow and how they come out. And he just finds the whole [00:37:00] thing like so amazing and incredible. And so yeah, to see it through his eyes and to also think about, well, how do I want to treat my body and talk about my body when he's around, because I don't want to.

  To be awful to myself and that be his 

  blueprint on how we talk to ourselves as people. 

  Jess: I like that though. And just the conversation around that functionality piece too, of like the miracle of birth, but then also pulling back bigger picture of like, what is your body capable of? And we touched on that a little bit earlier in the like, [00:37:30] how it could be a negative thing of like when you can't get pregnant and you're like, why can't my body do what I want?

  But in general, one really big cornerstone and helpful piece for body image is that functionality piece.

  Claire: And I've done a lot of work with like, kind of loving touch and being with my body, like in the bath or in the shower and touching those parts that feel really vulnerable and feel really different. And. I guess talking to them and treating them with love and yeah, just really getting [00:38:00] curious around where have my feelings towards them come from?

  Why? And there's just, it's a, it's an ongoing process. I had some complications with the way my scar healed and so, know, I spoke to my therapist and she, she had to say to me at one point, you know, it's okay to want to have that corrected. Like there's a procedure I could go and have done where they will improve the appearance of the scar and it's not vain to want that.

  there's nothing shameful about wanting that, you know, you [00:38:30] can, you're allowed to think. I don't like the way that looks, I don't like the way that feels, I don't like the traumatic birth that it reminds me of, and I want to do something about that. So that's not a road I've gone down yet, but it was just a really nice moment for me in therapy to have that permission to go, it's okay to feel the negative stuff first before we do anything else, like you're 

  allowed to hate this and find this really hard.

  Jess: Yeah, having just that simple acknowledgement of your feelings are valid.

  And there's permission to [00:39:00] want to consider doing something. I think about this in context of a lot of the conversations I have on Sturdy Girl in general and then with clients is like, you are allowed to have aesthetic goals and work on your body image and have your body image be in a healthy place. They're not necessarily separate. and there's such a, like a pendulum swing with that. I feel like, like if you were in the like, body trust and body respect and like health at every size space and a lot of that rhetoric you're going to see people that are like you should absolutely [00:39:30] not want to change your body you should accept it as it is and that's all there is and never want to change it and don't ever think about diet and anything like that whereas there's the other part that's like Alright, no, can work on body image, I can work on my relationship with myself and have that be in a healthy place while also deciding that I don't like this part of me and I want to, I want to see defined shoulder muscles. And that means nothing about me beyond the fact that? I just want to have bolder shoulders, okay? Like, is that cool? We [00:40:00] cool with that? it does not mean that my body image is bad, you know? And I think that that's similar, like, with you. To have the permission to say, like, you're allowed to change that if you want to.

  It's up to you. But know that's an option and you don't have to tell yourself it's wrong for feeling like you don't like that part of your body. And that's really important and really powerful for a lot of people, too.

  Claire: Absolutely. And it's something I talk to new mums a lot about. Again, it's that piece around, this process can't be rushed, nothing in postpartum 

  can be rushed. And it includes this stuff, too. 

  Jess: Yeah, it does. [00:40:30] Oh my gosh. We have had such a great and diverse conversation so far. Do you have anything else you wanted to cover in relation to Bounce Back Culture, body image, maybe any, like, takeaway if you wanted the audience to remember one thing, it would be this, 

  Claire: I would say, like, it's easy to think about bounce back culture as a really simple topic, like, we all know there's pressure to bounce back, there's pressure to lose weight and exercise after you have a baby, but I think it goes a lot deeper than that, starts a lot sooner than that.

  [00:41:00] There's so much around this time that's tied into our bodies and I think we've gotten really good at talking more about postpartum mental health. But we haven't gotten so good about talking about. the embodied part of what we go through. And I would just say, like, I want mothers and, and birthing people to know that whatever feelings, like we just said, whatever feelings they have about their bodies are valid.

  They're allowed to feel them all. They're allowed to get support to feel them all. And they're also allowed to get [00:41:30] physical support. So on a really practical level, I just recommend everyone try if it's within your means to seek out a pelvic health physio. During pregnancy and then have them on hand post birth because yeah, I'm originally from Scotland and in a lot of European countries that is standard like you will be assigned a pelvic health or women's physio who will guide you through that physical recovery period and unfortunately here in Australia and I'm sure in the US we just don't have that as standard [00:42:00] and, and we need it.

  yeah, I would say do that if you want to breastfeed. Same thing. You need someone to help you. You need that support. You need someone who knows all of the pitfalls and all of the hacks and everything. So, don't be afraid to reach out to a lactation consultant or someone that you trust because it doesn't mean that you're not good at this or that you're not a natural mother or that you've failed in any way.

  It means actually asking for help means that you value yourself you know, your own worth Yeah, it's something [00:42:30] that we all need. And so I would just say to, yeah, anyone who's pregnant or just had a baby, like, ask for the help, get the help, because, we all need it. And unfortunately, our culture has told us that we don't, but we definitely do.

  And if you're a partner or a dad, and you're supporting someone through this time of life, I would just say, Just be conscious around how this body stuff can play out, because I don't think it's something that's kind of thought about deeply enough, know, I really want partners to be able to learn to get [00:43:00] better at holding space for all the emotions that can come up around, not just mental health, not just the baby, but our bodies too.

  And yeah, I think we've also got a long way to go in the professional space when we deal with women in this period of life where, you know, there are a whole lot of issues around consent and about touching and about how we talk to people and how we hold people through this, that need to get so much better.

  So I think the main takeaway is if you're feeling a lot of feelings about your body, then You are normal. It's [00:43:30] common. yeah, you 

  can reach out for help.

  Jess: Know that there's people there to support you. This is semi related. thank you for that. That like great takeaway and information. But when we're like, okay, we have a lot of long ways to go in the professional space. I'm like, yeah, how about maternity leave in the U S 

  please? And thank you.

  Claire: I know. 

  I'm sorry. I read a lot of stuff on social media, obviously, around parenting and anytime there's questions. there's parental leave conversations and I see comments from U. S. moms. Yeah, my heart just sinks for you because, I mean, [00:44:00] even in Australia it is not good enough but I think growing up in a country where you have that we can really take for granted and to see women being forced to go back to work when they're still bleeding from birth is just, it's literally barbaric, 

  Jess: What is 

  maternity leave like in Australia?

  Claire: It's very variable depending on where you work. Actually, when I had my son, I got zero paid leave from my employer. That has now changed that employer, thankfully. But we do [00:44:30] get government rental leave which are not enough. I think I got something like 18 weeks of minimum wage paid to me by the government.

  And then my partner got like a week or two. But the norm here is that you would give birth and you would take a year off work. That's like, where I live anyway, that's what the vast majority of people will do. And then, you know, you might go back to work after that. yeah, it's certainly, unheard of to go back to work after just weeks.

  I don't [00:45:00] even think many daycares would take a baby that young. Yeah. It's just not really a thing. And it's quite shocking to us when we hear mothers in the U. S. talk about these things because it's just, there are just so many things going on in the U. S. right now. I'm sure that we could talk about in 

  terms of your rights to your, your bodies, but 

  Jess: that's another episode for another day. But yes, all of that, my gosh. Okay, let's talk fun questions before we delve into this state of politics right now. What is your fun fact that you share for like icebreaker type [00:45:30] questions?

  Claire: I never know what to say for this question, but I was thinking about it because I knew you would ask and. I have a few so I'm obviously Scottish so I have lived in Australia for a few years. 15 years, but I was born and raised over there. And Scotland is like the home of golf. And so my uncle was recently doing our family tree and found out that one of my like great, great grandfathers had originally coined this phrase par for the course.

  Do you say that in the

  US? That's par for the course. So apparently [00:46:00] that was him and yeah, so that's a little fun fact and now whenever I hear anyone say that, I get a 

  little kick out of it cause I'm like, Ooh, that came from my family.

  Jess: That is an awesome icebreaker answer to a question. That's great.

  What a cool, and also Scotland to Australia. That's just, 

  Claire: Yeah, a little bit of a weather 

  change.

  Jess: yes, that's for sure. I'm like, I live in the Pacific Northwest, like, it's very similar to Scotland type weather of just rain and fog and your winters are rainy versus, [00:46:30] like, snow and that kind of thing. So,

  Claire: Yeah, although I grew up with a lot of snow. And so this time of year is actually weird for me because we come into Christmas and it's hot outside, which just feels wrong. So I actually 

  miss at this time 

  of year. I like a white Christmas.

  Jess: So you should be in Scotland for Christmas every year is what 

  you're saying. 

  Claire: Yeah, I should. But then I'd miss out on summer. 

  So 

  Jess: That's true. Okay. You been a powerlifter. Do you powerlift now? I know you 

  have in the past. 

  Claire: [00:47:00] Yeah, I wouldn't call what I do now powerlifting. I lift weights, but nowhere near to the level that I did before. I just, I just don't have the time really.

  That's 

  really the big barrier. So, I think when my son starts school, I'll probably get back into it, but for now I'm just happy, like, I go to the gym, I have a really nice community there, the gym for me is one place, pretty much the only place in my life where I'm not someone's mum, I'm not talking about kids or parenting or anything because I have that at home and at [00:47:30] work and at the gym, most of the people that I'm friends with there don't have kids 

  and we can just talk about others. and that's really, really

  nice 

  Jess: you get to be Claire, the human, not the parent or, you know, the, the counselor or anything. okay,

  so powerlifting question. Squat, bench, or deadlift? 

  Claire: Deadlift. Yeah, always the deadlift. conventional. not for any like snobby reason. That's just the way my body works. I have quite long legs and I just feel more comfortable in conventional. So yeah. And my, my bench press [00:48:00] is probably my worst one. I'm pretty, pretty weak up top, but I try and I'm slowly, slowly adding weight 

  there, 

  Jess: It is the slowest moving lift of all, for sure. I'm in kind of a season of, of lifting, but not powerlifting specific. And so when I was, like, three years of powerlifting, I mean, my heaviest bench was nowhere near what my squat and deadlift ended up being. 

  So, 

  Claire: Same. 

  Jess: you just kind of roll with it.

  But, deadlift, I love it. I've done sumo and conventional. in [00:48:30] competition and have gone back and forth depending on the phases but every PR has been 

  conventional. 

  Claire: Oh, interesting. I found like one of the cool things powerlifting gave me is because that's how I kind of got into lifting. Now, when I just go to a gym, it's not a powerlifting gym, and we're just doing other things. It has made me not afraid of heavy weight. So, yeah, it really pushed the ceiling of what is achievable for me. So I'm not scared to go and grab a heavyweight and yeah, a lot of the women at [00:49:00] my, my gym always mentioned that like, Whoa, you've, you're starting with that, but it just doesn't scare me like it does for some of them who have just, yeah, come from the little baby dumbbells that we're told are the girl weights. 

  Jess: You're like, do you know how much my child weighs? I gotta be able to lift more than that. that's fantastic. Okay, what is the number one book you've recommended or given as a gift?

  Claire: Yeah, this is a hard question too because shamefully I feel like I never read anymore because I, again, just am so over on [00:49:30] time. yeah, lately I do have a couple of like parent books that I recommend. there's one about, that delves into a bit of body stuff actually that's really great. It's called Birth by Jessica And she's actually not a health professional. She's a journalist, but she has done a really great job of bringing together a lot of the research, a lot of the professional voices in the space, and it kind of talks you through pregnancy all the way through to postpartum, what you can expect your body to [00:50:00] do. There's mental health stuff in there. There's, yeah, just, a whole lot of, Really easy to consume, really well written information in there that I feel everyone probably needs to know, but not everyone gets told about. So, yeah, I definitely recommend that. And, other than that, I just read a lot of kids books at the moment.

  My son loves to read, so we read a lot of picture books, and I'm kind of excited. He's almost four, so we're kind of getting to the stage where he can read books that are a little bit longer now, and I can hopefully start to [00:50:30] introduce him to some of my childhood faves.

  Jess: Oh, I'd love that. Does he have a favorite book right now? 

  Claire: He's just got this really cool book, it's called The Café at the Edge of the Woods, and it's a new author, and He's like an animator and he worked on this movie called Robin Robin that's on Netflix which is really cute if you haven't seen it. It's got Gillian Anderson as one of the voices.

  but he's just this incredible artist. So the illustrations in that book are just amazing. And it's a really quirky, weird little story, which my kid loves. So 

  Jess: [00:51:00] that's great. I love when kids pick favorites and then every night you're like, all right, we're reading this again. Oh, we're going to read it a second time tonight. 

  Okay, let's go. 

  Claire: And he kind of likes books that are a bit dark and a bit strange, so his other favourite book is about like a skeleton that has no head that's like searching for its missing head. 

  It's really weird and creepy and dark, but he loves it, 

  Jess: And you're like, let's keep cultivating these tastes.

  Okay. 

  That's cute. My last fun question for you. How do you take your coffee or [00:51:30] tea or morning beverage of 

  choice? 

  Claire: I am on a constant quest to stop drinking coffee because I find it really impacts my sleep, even if I drink it first thing in the morning. And I never drank coffee my whole life until I was probably like in my early thirties. And then I worked in a really stressful job and I. took up coffee to help with that, and I've never been able to stop since.

  Jess: like, it's 

  so delicious. 

  Claire: yeah, I know, I thought I didn't like the taste of it before, and then when I finally started drinking it, I'm like, [00:52:00] what's not to like about this? so right now I'm, I'm a soy, soy girl, and I have a, what's called a dirty chai. 

  Do you have that there? Yeah. So chai with espresso in it. That's my favourite at the moment.

  But yeah, I'm trying to switch to just chai 

  without the espresso. But it's a work in progress. 

  Jess: good luck. I try to do that to myself and then all of a sudden I'm like, I can't, I can't live without it. 

  Jess: I was 25 when I started drinking coffee. It was my senior year of college and I was studying for like six board exams, plus like clinical work, plus [00:52:30] school work, and I was just like, I need something. And like a four ounce cup of coffee put me just on the moon. I was like, so ready to go on just that amount of coffee and my tolerance has definitely gone up since then.

  But like, oh my gosh, it was great. And I was like, why did no one tell me about this stuff before? This is 

  amazing. 

  Claire: Yeah, I find it really helps me focus, a lot of the time my only free time is at night once my son has gone to sleep, so if I want to still be able to do something 

  at that time of night, then coffee is [00:53:00] how I get there, 

  unfortunately. 

  Jess: And then you're like, all right, what kind of sleep meds can I take right now? 

  What I 

  need. 

  Yeah. 

  Claire: the whole cycle. 

  Jess: Yeah. Okay. Where can audiences find you to learn more? 

  Claire: Yep. So I'm on Instagram, although I am very sporadic at posting just really not a social media person. I find it really hard to like, I find there's pressure to be on social media. Yeah, as a professional person, which I get, but I find that when I'm thinking about [00:53:30] social, I start thinking about my life in terms of content. Oh, I could film this moment and that could be content. And I, I hate that. So anyway, I am on there though. it's just my username is my name, Claire de Carlo. Rad parents, which I know is the longest name ever. you can also just find me at my website, 

  which is rad parents.com.au. 

  Jess: I love it. And that is half the reason that you applied to be a guest on Sturdy Girl is because we use the word rad all the time and that's 

  your business 

  name. 

  Claire: [00:54:00] yeah. Yeah. I like to just put the fun into parenting a little bit 'cause I think there's so much advice out there and everything's become a bit serious and. I kind of think, you know, we have kids because we want to have like the fun times with our kids and we want to enjoy it. Like, that's the whole point.

  And I feel like we've gotten away from that a little bit sometimes. So yeah, I wanted to put, put the rad in there and, and, 

  find the fun in parenting and find the enjoyment in it. 

  Jess: That's so fantastic. All right. Well, thank you so much for being a guest on the [00:54:30] podcast. It was great conversation. I feel like it is a. Very important one, thank you for your time. Thanks for 

  joining 

  us. 

  Claire: so much. 

  Jess: Alright friends, thanks for listening to another episode of Sturdy Girl.

  We will catch you next Friday.

46. How Yoga Can Help Your Body Image and Confidence with Rachel Pradarelli, Coach and Nurse Practitioner

In this episode of Sturdy Girl, host Jess welcomes Rachel, a women's wellness coach and yoga/meditation teacher. Rachel shares her journey from experiencing burnout as a family nurse practitioner to finding new purpose in coaching women to appreciate and empower their bodies. The discussion covers the impacts of yoga, particularly yin yoga, on body image and mental health, the significance of mindfulness and meditation, the power of gratitude, and the principles of the law of attraction. They also delve into handling negative self-talk and the transformative effects of inner work.

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• Full Transcript

  [00:00:00] 

  Jess: Hello friends and welcome back to another episode of Sturdy Girl. I have another amazing guest on with us today. Rachel, hello. Thank you for joining us. I'm going to let you do the honors of introducing yourself and telling us a little bit more about what you do.

  Rachel: Hey, Jess. Thanks for having me on. I'm so happy to be here. So I am a women's wellness coach and also a yoga and meditation teacher. And I help women to stop hating their bodies and to [00:00:30] go from self criticism to feeling more comfortable and empowered in their skin. 

  Jess: This is like directly in line with all things Sturdy Girl.

  Rachel: Yes, I know. I love it.

  Jess: I do too. Freaking A. Okay. So tell me a little bit about how you got into coaching because were you a family nurse practitioner before you got into coaching?

  I was gonna say tell me what that journey looked like.

  Rachel: Yeah. So, I mean, I'm technically, I'm still a licensed family nurse practitioner, but I am no longer in the [00:01:00] clinical setting. Ooh, yeah. And that is for a few reasons, but I experienced like severe burnout working in the primary clinical setting here in the States. that led to just a whole bunch of my own health and wellness.

  issues. And so commitment to finish you know, my contract. So that was kind of my end goal, but I pretty much knew that I needed to get out. I needed to remove myself from the situation because I was [00:01:30] experiencing, yeah, like chronic fatigue depression. Digestive issues, chronic hip pain, all of this stuff was manifesting physically emotionally and spiritually on, on all levels, honestly.

  And so, after I removed myself from the environment and I knew that that needed to be my first step, I honestly was like, I, Was not even sure I wanted to like do anything related to health and well being wellness anymore I was like, I don't even know like i'll go work in the state park or something.

  I just was [00:02:00] so disconnected from What my purpose alignment all of that who I was? I just felt like completely lost. And so that is what ultimately led me to my own experience with wellness coaching and then just a deep dive into a whole bunch of self reflection and inner work. And that like specifically looked like deepening my own yoga and meditation practices and engaging in, like I said, my own [00:02:30] experience with wellness coaching and support.

  And so, that's what ultimately led me to coaching and it just, so I mean, looking back to where I was. Then and now and obviously there is no arriving like we are constantly evolving and growing right so it's not like oh I'm like free of problems and just like love myself all the time but it's all relative to so it's like looking at where I was from where and where I am now.

  It's night and day to me. yeah so that's my [00:03:00] passion now is. Supporting women to take that first step, whatever that looks like. You know, if that is leaving the environment that they're in or to starting on that path to connecting with yourself again, accepting yourself, accepting your body, I'm moving from 

  there. 

  Jess: I love that. that's fantastic. okay. Were you practicing yoga before? While you were a nurse practitioner and going through all of the stress and burnout and those pieces, was that a part of your life at that time?

  Rachel: It was, Jess. [00:03:30] Yes. I love that you asked that because, well, I'm not sure where you want to go with that, but my relationship to my yoga practice has changed. significantly. Like since I went through my yoga teacher training program. Cause before when I was working as a nurse practitioner, I wasn't, I didn't have that extra training.

  And so that definitely evolved my relationship to yoga. And so my practice also evolved too. 

  Jess: do you feel like yoga practice Helped you get through the burnout? Like, do you feel like that was [00:04:00] a significant piece of that 

  Rachel: So this is interesting. I feel like, when I was working clinically. In retrospect, I, not quite sure, it was really only after I left the environment that I had the time and space to like, not only just breathe but really reflect on like what I wanted, what, was my purpose, like ask myself all these questions and really dig into that, that shift, like that mind shift [00:04:30] also related to my relationship to yoga and meditation and mindfulness and being present.

  So yes, it did help to some degree, but now it has. Yeah, it just has a different meaning 

  to 

  Jess: I'd say probably, probably, evolved because like when you're in the stress of clinical work, there isn't a lot of space to make yoga probably be or your relationship with self or any of those things be the importance that they need to because you're in that constant stress [00:05:00] cycle.

  Rachel: Oh my gosh. Yeah. I mean, that is the thing. It's just this incessant cycle of self talk, of thoughts. And it's the negative energy feeding off of the negative energy. Like that, that's how the law of attraction and, and law of energy works, you know? So it makes sense now when I look back, right?

  Yes, it was a part of, like, physical activity for me, like, movement, and yes, there were moments of stillness and presence, but the great majority of my day was [00:05:30] spent in this negative, disempowering self talk, thought process, and, like, that literally went on for the bulk hours of the day, you know, so it makes sense why my results and my reality reflected that 

  Jess: Okay, I definitely want to take this conversation in a couple different directions. But I'm going to claim absolute ignorance and ask you what the heck law of attraction and law of energy are because I have absolutely no idea.

  Rachel: yes, Jess, this is amazing. And this is one of the things that I was introduced to, like, in, in this whole [00:06:00] process of inner work, self reflection, deep dive because I was unfamiliar with it not too long ago either. So, this is how I like to explain it. So everything in this universe is made of energy.

  Everything, like, this table, you and I, water, a chair thoughts, emotions, those are made of energy. And anything that has energy is vibrating, it's constantly vibrating so the difference is at what frequency that thing is vibrating [00:06:30] at, so it's either like a higher frequency or a lower frequency.

  So things that vibrate naturally at a lower frequency, like when we're looking at like emotions and thoughts are like your disempowering thoughts like shame, guilt criticism, depression. These are all like low frequency. States. They produce that. And then things that are like on the other, the other side of that, high frequency, high, high frequency emotions would be like your gratitude, abundance, compassion, love, joy.

  okay, so why does that matter? [00:07:00] when these things vibrate, they are literally transmitting this out into the universe. And by the law of attraction, like frequencies attract like frequencies. Okay. feelings are the language of the body.

  I've been taught that, and I love that analogy. So, what does that mean? So if you are, like, in a depressive state, like you're feeling down, you're, you're, Self criticism. You feel that in your body, right? Like we all know what that is. It's a heaviness. And that is basically you noticing at what vibration [00:07:30] you are at at the time.

  And so by the law of attraction, what you are expressing and transmitting out, you're going to bring in. So you're inviting more of that you know, not only like criticism, depression, but other things that are at that same vibrational frequency. Right. And so that's why it's like, this makes sense. why we do get stuck in these cycles.

  Of like, depression, stress you know, self criticism, and we like notice ourselves going down a rabbit hole. That's why that rabbit hole is happening. so it's so powerful Does that [00:08:00] make sense 

  or

  Jess: yeah, that tracks. So I'm curious, just in a vein of like, were talking a little bit before we hit record, like, I have been down the rabbit hole of Buddhism recently. 

  And so I have read, I'm on my third book about Buddhism just educationally, and it has found its way into my daily life at this point. And so I'm just, I'm thinking about like what you explaining, like, Law of attraction, law of energy, and like, vibration, the vibrational force of those energies, like, how does that tie into the thought of [00:08:30] mindfulness?

  just because I was thinking in Buddhism, they talk a lot more about the noticing. of thoughts and feelings with non attachment. They talk about like, letting those things come up. So when we talk about like, paying attention to our self talk, and that's something that we've talked a lot about on this podcast, is like, when we notice our thoughts, and then notice some of the feelings that are coming up with those thoughts, and we notice where we're feeling them in the body, and what they might look or feel like, But it's more from an observational perspective versus you saying, like, it is the [00:09:00] language of the body, but is there like identification with that?

  Or are we just, are we still in that like non attachment noticing piece

  Rachel: yeah, that's really super powerful. Like that is, and that's what I love, love, love, love to focus on in in my work with women is, I mean, so the first step is building awareness, right? Like for a majority of us, the, this self talk, these thoughts that go on all day, we don't even notice, like we're thinking without knowing we're thinking.

  Right. And so the first step in that is [00:09:30] breaking the cycle. that is where the power and strength behind mindfulness and meditation come into play because it creates a space. For us to do that, where we are just sitting there and we are simply observing. and that is a muscle that needs to be built.

  Like that is not going to, it is not going to be like you sit down the first time, you know, and like, Oh my God, I'm terrible at this. Like so often when people say like, I'm bad at meditating, the thing is you can't be bad at [00:10:00] meditating because the practice is. When you are noticing, like, oh, there goes that thought again.

  It's not about not having that thought again. They are going to be there. Like, that is part of being human. Like, we are going to have those thoughts. We're going to have all these feelings and emotions that constantly come up. But it's a matter of, okay, can I just look at this? Can I notice it as it's arising?

  And let it be there without adding on any added, negative self talk, like, oh, there it is again, you know, like [00:10:30] just creating the space for that. 

  Jess: without judgment? 

  Rachel: Yeah, yeah. And that is part of also the de identifying process. Like that's the second step. So we build our awareness of it. And that can be done through like a formal meditation practice, or I even recommend starting with just setting an alarm in your phone, literally an awareness alarm.

  So set it like two times during the day, whatever times you want. And when it goes off, All you do is stop, you know, if you can, sit down, take a breath, close your eyes, and just reflect on what were you just [00:11:00] thinking, or what was something, like, that you can reflect on earlier in the day that was a disempowering thought, and just bringing awareness to it, like, oh, there's that thought, and then that starts to become more second nature, and that matters because once you can start to notice it more frequently, You're no longer, you're no longer it.

  Like, you are not your thought. And that is usually how, like, the identification with thought, or like, the thinking without knowing, is like, you're going throughout your day as if you were that thought. And so, like, we [00:11:30] have to, we have to break that. That's the first step before we can rewrite it. You know, 

  that makes sense. 

  Jess: It all makes sense. Yeah. It's, it's so much along the lines of one stuff I've been on complete tangents about. Also too, a lot of the conversations that we've had on the podcast about self talk about the beginning work of body image. That very first step is awareness. It is building awareness around at what times do I feel the worst about my body, the best about my body?

  What are some of my triggers? It's [00:12:00] learning to become aware of what some of the things you're saying to yourself, especially with like mirror self talk and those things, like that self talk piece is huge. And it's interesting because that also, as you build the awareness and you practice that skill of just noticing thoughts come up without reacting to them, you give space between that thought and your action reaction or no action, right? That building that skill, like that is a form of mindfulness. And that's something that I don't think people understand. And I think too, like [00:12:30] the words mindfulness or meditation are words that tend to, to Make people shy away. And I don't want to be extreme. Like some people are like, Oh my God, no meditation.

  Like I'm terrible at it. Well, it's just a practice. And it's getting comfortable. I mean, I think about the general understanding of people who are like, Oh my God, sitting alone with my thoughts. That sounds terrifying.

  that's an even stronger reason to want to build that skill. And that's something that like, I'm just going to go off on my own tangent because again, reading about Buddhism recently, you talk about the more that you're working in this [00:13:00] mindfulness piece, the more there's that contentment.

  Contentment that comes from getting to know yourself and maybe starting to notice patterns or certain reactions you have in scenarios. So like, when I get up in the morning and I look in the mirror, what, what tends to be the first thing that I say to myself? When I get in the car and realize that I did it.

  You know, I'm once again running on less than a quarter tank of gas, and I've got to hustle to the gas station before I can go to work, and like, what's the self talk coming up right now? but the more you get to know that, the more that you are getting [00:13:30] to know yourself, and there's an easier place to return to, like, maybe external circumstances in your world, or stressful.

  There's a lot going on. But if your internal world is something that you are, I'm going to say comfortable in, and obviously that doesn't last, like necessarily last, right? There's continuous work there. But if you know yourself a little bit more, it's a lot easier to get through the hard things in life.

  Rachel: Yes, that was so beautifully stated. because it's like you're then you're no longer depending on or trying to control your external circumstances, which so many [00:14:00] of us live by, like just by default, right? Like we're trying to and I think it goes, it ties into what you're saying about like, how people comment on like, Oh, that's so uncomfortable.

  Like, I don't think I can sit with myself. It's like, okay, let's look into that a little bit. Like, why do you think that is? 

  Jess: hmm, tell me more.

  Rachel: Yeah. So this is usually what's going on. At least this is what I think is like, there are so many. emotion, the things that we have gone through in our lives that likely we have not processed. And that [00:14:30] can look a lot of different ways. But most of the time when we do start to feel something uncomfortable, whether that's produced by something external The reason we react to it is because we've already experienced something similar in the past that provoked that same emotion, and it's uncomfortable like people don't like to feel uncomfortable right like we don't like to feel stressed or pain or sorrow or, you know, like, it's uncomfortable, but If we're only utilizing like [00:15:00] distraction or not letting those emotions pass all the way through, they're just going to continue to like we were talking about with energy.

  Energy doesn't just dissipate like it stays in your body and it will manifest in one way or another and that's usually how disease presents itself like chronic chronic issues. Many times it is related to. Energy that isn't serving us that is staying within it's stuck within the body and so that is another beautiful thing [00:15:30] about mindfulness and meditation is because yes, it does.

  It is uncomfortable at first change is going to be uncomfortable and that is your body and brains natural way of trying to actually like support you like it. You know, for like survival purposes, right? Like it is trying to tell you, oh, this is uncomfortable. Let's go back to what we're familiar with, even if that is like a disempowering negative state.

  But if it's your If it's been your default for, you know, however many years it's familiar to [00:16:00] you, it's kind of, it's home to you. Right. And so that's why when you're trying to make change, it's uncomfortable at first and it's going to be. And so for people to know that that is totally normal is really important.

  Right. But on the other side of that, there is just. a huge, a realm, huge realm of opportunities for growth and strength. 

  Jess: It all tracks. two books that come to mind. One, have you read The Body Keeps the Score?

  Rachel: Oh, I started it, but I 

  haven't finished it. 

  Jess: There's a lot of what you're saying resonance with like, the things [00:16:30] that happen to us and those experiences do stay in the body and what it looks like to process some of those things and also the, physical manifestations you can see of kind of where you were talking about coming out of clinical work and being like, I was burnt out and all of my stress symptoms were presenting physically.

  And it talks a lot about that. Yeah, and then the other book, and I, my poor listeners, I have talked about this book on, I don't even know how many episodes now, but have you read The Comfort Crisis?

  Rachel: No, I have not. 

  Jess: Okay, it's Michael Easter, and it's essentially what, how [00:17:00] we as humans have gotten soft, and how much we stick to our comfort zones, and what what kind of detriment that has, to our, individual beings as well as, like, society.

  but that's talked a lot about just the benefits of getting outside of our comfort zone, and the reasons why our comfort zone exists. And why that is the default, even if that default can be harmful. So 

  Rachel: Yes, definitely add that to my list. Thank you. Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

  I love when we come across resources like that, right? Where it's like, there's a reason why you are serving as this [00:17:30] vehicle to get this information out. You know, it's beautiful. Like, I love that. I'm definitely going to 

  look into it. I'm going to get that book. 

  Jess: maybe make it a goal to get Michael Easter on the podcast or something with as 

  much as I talk about his books.

   Okay, we we've touched on mindfulness, we've touched a little bit on meditation and those pieces. I'm gonna go backwards for just a second where we were talking about yoga. I will be totally honest, I have not done yoga in a real long time.

  I used to do it a fair amount. Along with my, like, marathon training and all of that, I had a couple of friends who were really into it. So I [00:18:00] used used to. It's not something that I actively practice and I think about it, but with my training schedule, sometimes there is the tendency to be like, well, what moves the needle for my running and my lifting and yoga doesn't see, doesn't see the action anymore.

  Rachel: Yeah, 

  Jess: going back around my question being with the coaching that you do, and I know you integrate yoga into. A fair amount of this. How have you found yoga to impact people's body image, self confidence, those things? Like, what does that look like in practice?

  Rachel: yeah. [00:18:30] So the style of yoga that I use in in my programs is yin yoga. Have you heard of yin yoga? 

  Jess: heard of it. I couldn't tell you what it is though. 

  So, do explain.

  Rachel: yeah. And actually a lot of people aren't, aren't too familiar with it. And it's actually one of the most recent styles of yoga that I've come across also in my kind of yoga journey here.

  But it is definitely the one that I'm like most resonating with, at least in this like season of my life. So Yin is a very gentle slow paced. [00:19:00] style of yoga. generally speaking, it is primarily seated and lying down poses only. That you hold for three to five minutes at a time. it is not only for deep muscle tension release improves flexibility, enhances focus, mental clarity eases stress and, and anxiety.

  And also like deep emotional release as well. there's all those benefits, but also how it's related to [00:19:30] you know, how we can start to change our relationship to our bodies and ourselves, I think is because of the mindfulness aspect of it, because it is so slow paced. You are there with your thoughts and your body.

  And that is the space, right? Like You are in this pose and and you find your unique shape within the pose. it's a practice of surrender. you know, there's no grasping, no gripping, no forcing. So you're meeting your body at wherever the heck it's at that in that day, [00:20:00] maybe, you know, and And being okay with that and like accepting that so allowing that and that whole premise is, very much related to what we're doing with our bodies right where is your body at right now, physically and also.

  honoring that and accepting that right without coming from a space of like self judgment. So that helps to cultivate that mindfulness and just noticing. I like to tie in like gratitude scans as well as part of a [00:20:30] Yin session. And so basically what that is, is bringing your attention. So focusing your attention to some part of your body and noticing doing a body reality check, like what does this part of my body actually do for me, right?

  So the shift from appearance to function wow, yeah, like, what is my body actually doing for me? Why do I even, like, why do I have a body, right? Like, my eyes allow me to see, my arms allow me to hug the people I love and so, again, kind of breaking that cycle too and so that yin provides [00:21:00] a great space for us to do that and to really, like hone in on our self talk as well.

  again, bringing awareness to what, what is going through my head in this pose right now. And then integrating the practice of like replacing that either with something else that resonates with you that is positive, or even just trying to say the opposite, like noticing what you said and just replacing it with the opposite.

  Because that's also how we start. That is how the whole process of rewiring [00:21:30] of our brains happens. Needs a ton of persistence and repetition for those new neural connections to, to form, strengthen, and stay and for the old ones to actually die off. But those are the very first steps, like those are the very first you know, first ways in which we're like clearing the path to, to write a new, write a new story.

  I mean, really that's what we're doing. 

  Jess: that's yin yoga. Are there any other, types of yoga that you have used in practice or have [00:22:00] seen to help with body image? Because, like, this yin seems more like you are, again, bringing awareness to your body and your thoughts about your body and being almost forced into it.

  Sitting with your thoughts but in different positions and then being that gratitude list which I have a newfound appreciation for gratitude because, again, it's a, one of those buzzwords that people tend to shy away from. Like, oh yeah, like, I inherently know I should have a gratitude practice or whatever.

  [00:22:30] And then it's like, I'm thankful for my dog, I'm thankful for coffee, I'm thankful for the fact that the sun rose this morning, and then they're done. And the point of that gratitude is, like, When you can actually slow down, I think that's, that would be my biggest point in this whole conversation thus far when we're talking about all of this, like, inner work and mindfulness and improving body image through, like, yoga and those things, I have the tendency to be the person that's like, okay, now what's the point?

  Okay. Now, what am I getting out of this? Okay. I [00:23:00] have all these things to do. maybe identify as like type a like those like tendencies have gotten better. I have the tendency to be like that. And so, in reading these books about Buddhism and about these things, because gratitude gets brought up in that too, it's that being able to slow the F down and sit.

  Sit in your body, sit in with your thoughts. And that gratitude is like, this is okay. I'm gonna use this example because it was like, I was sitting outside last [00:23:30] weekend and I was reading a book on our back deck and I have like my big Mason jar water cup and I had ice in it with like a Skittles flavored water packet.

  And I'm reading about gratitude in this in this book. And they're talking about how. It's noticing those things that are like the anomaly of being alive in this universe at this time. Just the simple fact of like how insane that really is and then actually sitting to contemplate that. And so I'm like taking a sip of water and I'm looking down to the ice cubes and [00:24:00] looking at the water and like I can see the reflection of the trees behind me in this water glass as the water kind of ripples and I was like, This is mind blowing right now. Simply for the fact that I slowed down enough to be like, holy shit! being alive, being able to think and appreciate these things, to drink this water that literally tastes like red Skittles right now, that I have my dog sitting next to me, that I am alive in this time and I'm outside, like, this is amazing.

  And that is the point of gratitude of, like, being able to [00:24:30] appreciate the sheer wonder of being alive. Being a speck in the universe and experiencing all these things. It's not trying to be like, okay, this is another box to check in my day. It's the purpose of it is like slowing down and being like, wow, I still have working hands. I got my nails done for my sister's wedding. And I was like, looking at my toes and I'm like, man, I have all of my toes. And they, they all work. Like, it seems really silly, but when you actually think about it, it's profound. there's my rabbit hole for you. I just, and it's [00:25:00] hard to, I think, especially as like we're recording right now and people are listening.

  It's like, To impart that, hey, you live a really busy life. You're probably listening to this podcast on one and a half speed to get through it faster. You're probably driving or cooking or cleaning or doing something else while you're listening to this. But hey, it's actually worth it to slow down. How can you do that?

  Rachel: Yes. Oh my gosh. That is literally so beautiful. I can relate to what you said a little bit earlier about like, you know, this like gratitude [00:25:30] being thrown out. And I remember also thinking like, okay, yeah, gratitude, like what, and this is, this is a newer part of my life as well.

  I'm telling you this, like, it has literally changed my freaking life, like, it has, it has become a habit now a daily morning habit and I know that it has made, created shifts in my life, so first of all, like what's going on with that is when you do start to do that more on a regular basis, again, these [00:26:00] new neuronal connections are being formed, so your body's like, okay, Rachel's telling me, like, this is something she's putting her attention and focus on, and that builds The new connections and old ones die off.

  And so like that starts to shift to become your default. And it's like, okay, why does that matter? Well, one is just beautiful to like, reflect on what you do have. And instead of Going through life from a place of lack, you're going through a place of abundance now, right? Like, you're already seeing all this that is [00:26:30] truly a miracle.

  Literally, it's a miracle, right? Like, I have my ten fingers, too, and it's like, wow. Like, oh my god. I'm here again. Like, I, I get to express myself and live, live my day out how I want to yet another day. Like, that is a gift. And when it relates to the law of attraction, which I just like love this too, because gratitude is one of those high frequency states, like you will start to notice if this becomes a regular practice for you when you're at that high vibrational [00:27:00] state, that invites more of what you're grateful for into your life, right?

  Because you're inviting, again, like, like frequencies attract like frequencies. You're inviting more abundance into your life and you will see that in so many different forms. it's such a powerful practice. Like I Gratitude for gratitude, man. I love it.

  Jess: So talking about Gratitude and just this whole conversation. A lot of this is like us talking about inner [00:27:30] work, you talking about your shift away from clinical practice into more of the coaching and everything that that's encompassed to help women. What would you say, like, the value or benefits of inner work is, and what else does that look like to you? 

  Rachel: this is the thing, I feel like the majority of us as humans are going through life on autopilot. So that means we are doing these things, you know, going through the motions, saying these same things to ourselves, reacting to situations. you [00:28:00] know, subconsciously based on like programming epigenetically, genetically, socially, however that came about.

  and that can be okay if you are happy with where you're at. But I would say in my experience, the great majority of of people, of women, are not content. They're not content with where they are, what they're doing, how they feel on, on, on average. And so this is the thing, this is the value in inner work, because we cannot depend on controlling our [00:28:30] external environment to make us feel, right?

  This is very much an inside out work. This is very much that. And so again, as uncomfortable as it's going to be, and it is going to be uncomfortable to make those changes to face what you are feeling and look into why and look into how to go about changing that. You know, and it's an ever evolving process, but once you start that process, like, you won't go back This is how we move forward. This is how we [00:29:00] expand. this is the thing. I think we're here on this planet to live out your full expression, be your most authentic self, authentic self. And you can't do that without. Getting to know yourself, right? And that is, and that takes so much reflection and self awareness.

  And so, you know, there's so many beautiful tools that we have access to that we just need to know about and know how to access them in order to start that process. Right. again, there is no arriving. So [00:29:30] it's not like, okay, I am healed today or I am now like fully aware of myself. No, like we are constantly going to be like falling off the tracks, like going off the rails.

  That's totally normal. But that is, if we can do that, bringing compassion and kindness and gratitude to that, because those moments are there and they're there to serve as opportunities for us to grow, to continue pushing through. and so that's the value. The value is in that. It's [00:30:00] that we don't know how much time we have on this planet.

  We have no idea if we're gonna die like in five minutes from now or ten years from now. And so, why not? Do what you want to do, create the reality you want to and a lot of times, like it's so interesting because like relationship to your body often is like the gateway into all of these other things, like at the root cause, it's, it's really self love and self worth.

  And so it's what is your relationship to that? And so [00:30:30] by looking inward, through meditation and mindfulness yin coaching support, whatever that looks like for you, you know, that is your very first step. That is your very first step. it's your life, how do you want to live it?

  Cause it's totally in your hands. It really is. 

  Jess: I think that's a really powerful piece of this, too, that when we are on autopilot, when we are just action reaction, following the to do list, checking the boxes, that we forget that we're actually in charge.

  [00:31:00] we forget that we cannot control external circumstances, but We can control how we react to things and make our traces from there.

  And that's, that's such a huge part of this.

  Rachel: yeah, exactly. And that is what like, like mindfulness helps create that space so that you are no longer just reacting, right? So like, there's a difference between like reacting and responding. So reacting is like our immediate, like, something happened, whether it was like a conversation you have with someone or, you know, whatever.

  And it's kind of like your [00:31:30] immediate, like, autopilot response, right? But when we practice mindfulness, when we start to slow things down and notice things as they come up, you are now in a place of control. It is a place of power for you to choose how you respond now instead of just reacting. And that's usually from a place of control.

  when it is based out of mindfulness, that is now choosing to respond from a place of love instead of, fear or [00:32:00] stress. And that will naturally produce a result that you are likely to be more happy with, right? And, and the other person. Also receives that and it's a trickling effect as well, 

  Jess: okay. So I have like two more questions before we kind of wrap things up and this one might deviate a little bit, but I was just thinking most of this conversation, we've talked about a lot of the positives of noticing self talk of gratitude, of all of these positive things. Talk to me about how you handle negative self talk.

  So we start paying attention to that [00:32:30] self talk and it is just an, you're being an absolute asshole to yourself at all times, Or there's certain circumstances that we're just not nice to ourselves. what do you, what do you say then? 

  Rachel: I mean this is the thing. again I didn't really talk about this, but like I had never before, I had never had a good relationship with my body for as long as I can remember. And the peak of that kind of hatred was in the peak of my like burnout and stress, which is not surprising now you know, in retrospect, so that had a very negative self talk, disempowering [00:33:00] self talk had a very strong presence in my life for a very long time. And it honestly, how I like really started to change from it was, It did actually start with mirror, mirror work with me, because before I could barely look at myself in the eyes in the mirror and not be like disgusted or like, you know, immediately want to grab, suck in, cover up whatever, some part of my body. And through some [00:33:30] tools that I was introduced to and now.

  Promote for everybody to try. I think it really started there, Jess, like, because when I look from like, okay, it was so much negative talk, negative talk, negative talk, like, what was it that really created the shift? And not that there was no longer any more negative talk, but that it wasn't quite as prominent started with that, and that is looking at yourself in the mirror. Literally, I mean, eye contact and and a lot of people can't do this like [00:34:00] this is it's it's a very surprising thing because it seems so simple, right? Like I'm looking at myself in the mirror. say something empowering, something that resonates with you, whether that is like, I am confident, I am beautiful, I am worthy.

  So really affirmation, positive affirmation work is also a huge component in this whole shift. In this whole transformation process. And a couple things on that, because I know people tend to have in my experience working with people, people tend to [00:34:30] have pretty strong reactions to affirmations, whether that's like, all right, let's do this or like, Oh, my God, like affirmations, they don't work.

  But I've learned that it is. So much more than just words that you're saying because yeah, it is going to feel like a lie at first, you know, you're just like, I don't believe this. Like, that's totally normal. Because again, those are your old patterns kicking in. That is your old subconscious mind and survival brain being like, this [00:35:00] isn't familiar.

  Like, no, we, we are comfortable in the, I look like shit today or those thighs, you know, like that, that's your comfort zone. And so it is again, uncomfortable, and it is going to feel like a lie. But once you are able to find an affirmation that resonates with you, that you're like, okay, yeah, that sounds more reasonable.

  And you incorporate the aspect of feeling, because again, feeling is the language of the body. Thoughts are the language of the brain and [00:35:30] thoughts and feelings are what create behavior. So like we react and act in this world, Based on our feelings, our emotions. Like you'll notice that you can try reflecting on that during the day.

  Like you'll, you'll notice like when you're feeling good, when you're happy and excited, what are you more likely to do, go out, be more active, and when you're feeling like slumpy and down, you're less likely to engage, you're less likely to tell your partner you love them, you know, like it, that affects your behavior.

  So thoughts and the words and self talk [00:36:00] along with feeling both of those things. Need to go hand in hand. So, visualizing, okay, what would it feel like if I did believe this statement? Or if I was This person, right? So you're visualizing what it is that you want to feel be changed to and making that you're present in your body emotionally.

  And so that, really kind of started the shift as far as like the negative and disempowering self talk [00:36:30] process, I 

  guess. Yeah. 

  Jess: Yeah, that's a big one. so I will say this just from an affirmations perspective. So I can appreciate a lot of what you're saying. I think for, for me, and from what I just sound like a nerd, like read and research about affirmations is when we start out with affirmations, we have to pick things that we believe.

  We have to pick things that have a resonance of truth with them. So if we stand in front of the mirror and we are looking at our thighs. We are pinching the rolls on our stomach We are pushing at our flab on our arms like pinching the [00:37:00] skin underneath our chins Whatever it might be looking at how bigger noses or ears or whatever it might be and then we want to sit and we're gonna stand in front of the mirror and be like Man, I am gorgeous.

  your brain's gonna be like uh, screw you, that's a gigantic lie because I've been hearing all of the things you've been saying about me. And so you have to come from a place of like, like you were talking about too, of the envisioning, like, How do I, like, what kind of person do I want to be?

  How do I want to embody this? What kind of things do I want to feel about myself and working towards that? But the [00:37:30] place to start is the place of, I have to believe this. Because that gives you the first stepping stone in that process to be like, Okay, not everything about myself is bad, and then how much better can we work on those things?

  And a lot of times you see affirmations come from a place of functionality versus appearance, and having those go a lot further than the appearance ones for a lot of it too.

  Rachel: you're shifting the focus. Yeah. And it is, it just seems [00:38:00] more doable, right? When you are coming from like, you're hating on your body. Like love isn't the next step. it's acceptance. it's what can I appreciate about my body right now? And that's okay.

  That is okay to start there because that already is, is it? A step forward. That's the thing. That already is a shift. if that's where it needs to be right now for you, yes. You 

  Jess: my gosh, we've covered so much.

  Rachel: oh my god, I know. I feel like we just keep 

  going, Jess.

  Jess: This is so good. I know. [00:38:30] So for, for you listeners, before we hit record, I made sure to ask what kind of time Rachel had for this today. And I was like, you know, I, I try to keep this like 45 minutes to an hour. Like I want to make sure that I'm respectful of time, but also I'm really good at going off on tangents. So now, now you've experienced it. A couple more questions for you. So, if you could choose one thing for the listeners to remember from our chat today, what would it be?

  Rachel: I really think that it would be Maybe two things. First [00:39:00] of all, you have it in you to create a different reality if that's what you're looking for. and I think that's really important to remember because We all have access to this. We all have access to our innate power, wisdom, and a lot of times we're just disconnected from it.

  We are, we're disconnected from it for whatever reason, right? Whether it is your work circumstance or a relationship or whatever, but it is always accessible to us. [00:39:30] and that is also where, where change starts. And so that is always accessible. If there is something that you are not happy with in your life, you can absolutely change it.

  There are so many resources, tools, methods you know, we are here to support you. And so that is possible. I think the other thing is that. Your thoughts really do produce your reality. And so I think a lot of times there is this, like, I can't change my thoughts or like, yeah, like I can't change my [00:40:00] thoughts.

  They just are there. But really You absolutely can again with tools, methods, strategies to work on that. It's amazing what results you can see from very simple changes. 

  Jess: You wonderful humans, you're capable of change. Believe it or not. Okay, a few wrap up questions. If you could pick one food to eat for the rest of your life, what would it be? 

  Guacamole. 

  Rachel: Wait, what is yours? 

  Jess: Cookies. 

  Rachel: Oh, any, like, any specific kind?

  Jess: [00:40:30] fresh baked chocolate chip. They gotta be, like, soft, gooey, and then maybe a little crispy on the outside. that's my 

  jam. 

  Rachel: that sounds amazing. 

  But guacamole is pretty high up there too.! 

   I'm telling you, girl, I cannot live without that food, so.

  Jess: what is one activity that brings you joy and takes away attention from your body?

  Rachel: Mmm, that takes attention away from my body. 

  Jess: right? I mean, that's the focus here, is instead of the activities that make you, like, pull at your clothes and feel awkward and uncomfortable, like, It could even be what [00:41:00] helps you to feel like, in your body and feel good and feel your best, right? 

  Rachel: maybe this is biased, but like, yin yoga, I, it has been such a game changer for me because you know, I was talking about this a little bit earlier about how my relationship to yoga has changed over the years and before it, very much solely was like a very physical I would almost call it like a superficial type reason for engaging in it.

  You know, for like the. The toning aspect or the strength training [00:41:30] or, that component, but yin has absolutely nothing to do with that. Like it is very much. Man, I am just here. I am breathing. I am stretching into my body. Like it's, just a completely different relationship and it is like this space that I have learned to absolutely love and embrace and I'm so grateful for it. So yoga.

  Jess: What is the number one book you have given or recommended?

  Rachel: Oh my God. This one's so hard, Jess. so [00:42:00] my go to is A New Earth by Eckhart Tolle. That book changed my life. And was the very first like introduction to mindfulness and being versus doing that created like a completely new world. I just, yeah, that created a whole different shift in my entire existence.

  So, A New Earth by Eckhart Tolle, I recommend you dig 

  into it.

  Jess: Perfect. And then, second to last. How do you take your coffee, tea, or morning beverage of choice?

  Rachel: So I've actually always [00:42:30] despised coffee. As in, I just, I don't like, I've never liked the taste of it. I am so much more of an herbal tea person. I actually drink mate every day. Are you familiar with mate?

  Jess: Yeah. 

  Rachel: So I drink my mate with chamomile and aniseed. That's my favorite. Yeah.

  Jess: it's delicious. Okay, and the last question, where can audiences find you to learn more?

  Rachel: Yeah. So, you can find me at my website, which is [00:43:00] tranquillopawellness. com. Yeah. Tranquillopawellness, LLC is my business 

  name. 

  Jess: can, 

  you spell that for the audience, 

  please? 

  Rachel: Yeah. 

  Jess: we'll have it in the show notes for sure, but

  Rachel: Yeah, so that's T R A N Q U I L O P A,

  wellness. 

  Jess: Thank you, friend. This was amazing.

  Rachel: Yes, I love this and I love the space that you are creating for this, Jess. I think it's so amazing. I think it's so necessary. I love I love it [00:43:30] because, you know, this is a topic that actually often isn't brought up or it's hard for us to talk about our bodies and That's part of awareness is like just bringing this out as it is, right?

  So thank you 

  so much for 

  what you do. 

  Jess: starting more of those conversations. I appreciate your time. This was amazing, and thanks for all of the tangents, too. Those are my favorite, always.

  Rachel: Yes, I'm right there with you, 

  girl.

  Jess: So good. Okay friends, thank you so much for listening to another episode of Sturdy Girl. We will catch you next Friday.

45. Embracing Food Freedom and Growth Mindset with Coach Kelsey Wiebe

In this episode of Sturdy Girl, the host introduces Kelsey Wiebe, a NASM certified personal trainer, nutrition coach, and holistic life coach. Kelsey shares her journey from personal struggles with disordered eating to becoming an empowering coach for women. They discuss her transformation, the principles of her 'Rediscover You' coaching program, and the importance of food freedom, mindful eating, growth mindset, and self-compassion. The episode also highlights the significance of focusing on holistic health rather than just aesthetic goals, and how personal relationships contribute to overall well-being.

Connect with Kelsey HERE.

Send Us A Message!

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• Full Transcript

  [00:00:00] 

  Jess: Hello friends and welcome back to another episode of Sturdy Girl. We're going to try a little something different and I am going to fully introduce our guest Kelsey today, give you a little taste for what she's all about and a bit of her background, and then we'll set the stage for her to tell us even more.

  So Kelsey is a NASM certified personal trainer, a nutrition coach, and a holistic life coach who empowers women to become the strongest version of themselves without food and weight taking up all their headspace. This sounds a lot like the Sturdy Girl mission. I'm not going to lie.

  Through her coaching program, Rediscover You, Kelsey helps women [00:00:30] develop a healthy relationship with food, simplify strength training, and build lasting confidence.

  She's passionate about breaking the all or nothing mindset and guiding her clients to realize they are capable of achieving anything they set their minds to, mind, body, and spirit. Ma'am, you were made for a sturdy girl. Welcome to the podcast.

  Kelsey: I am so excited to be here. Anything that I've read about you and Sturdy Girl and your mission, I'm like, hell yes, let's go. 

  Jess: so, listeners, before we hit record, Kelsey and I chatted for a little bit and realized that we have the [00:01:00] same tattoo in the same location on our bodies and got them for very similar reasons, so I think we became best friends before even hitting record and I think you're gonna hear that on this episode.

  Kelsey: so great. Like, seriously, to have that same tattoo, I'm just like, holy crap. So by the way, guys, it's that little just create your own reality. I love that. I believe in that. And I think if, if people can walk away from this episode knowing that they have the power to create their own reality, great.

  Jess: internal versus external locus of control. Is like the main [00:01:30] thing, right? Like, we could get really into that. okay, I have a question though about this tattoo, because it's like two almost arrow shapes, if you will, side by side. Has anyone ever asked you if you served in the military when they see that?

  Kelsey: Oh. You know what?

  No. It's so interesting because it's so small, like, and it's on the inside of my wrist where yours is on the outside of your wrist, so most people don't see it. 

  Jess: I wore a whoop band on this arm for a couple of years. And so I kind of forgot I had it. And then the more that I'm on zoom, and I'm like, Oh, yeah, there's my tattoo.

  Kelsey: I freaking love it. So yes, we're definitely like [00:02:00] connected.

  Jess: This is good. Okay. So I personally want to know, and our listeners would want to know how the heck did you get started in coaching? You were telling me recently about some rad traveling you've done. And I'm assuming that the coaching that you do has given you the freedom to be able to do this. So tell me how you got there and tell me, tell me all about it.

  Kelsey: So, a little background about me. I've been a personal trainer for over 15 years. So that's definitely been more of what I've been doing. It started in person. I was mostly working in [00:02:30] Colorado. And then in 2017, I went to New Zealand and I had a working holiday visa there. I worked as a personal trainer and a master coach in New Zealand.

  Absolutely loved it. But it was in that moment, I was also like 29. So I don't know, there's something about like, right when you're about to turn 30, you have this moment of, what am I doing with my life? 

  Jess: quarter Life crisis, mid life, it's not mid life, but it's, I don't know, somewhere in there.

  Kelsey: there's something. And so for me, I was finally traveling, because that was always my dream, was to [00:03:00] travel.

  But all of a sudden I found myself, I'm in New Zealand, and I'm doing the same thing, where I'm working 12 to 15 hour days, In this gym, like I'm not actually getting to explore and now I'm making New Zealand dollars, which is not a strong currency. And so it made it more difficult for me to travel, say to Europe, or even to come back home to the U S and I was like, okay, so this isn't it.

  And that's when I started deep diving into the world of getting online. The dream was, how can I make U. S. dollars from anywhere in the world? So like, that's how it started, that little bit of a, [00:03:30] almost a selfish dream in a sense to just kind of get the, the ball rolling. And then I continued traveling, whatever else, came back to the U.

  S. And rather than joining a gym and, and trying to personal train in person again, I did do some Orange Theory coaching. But as I was starting to go online, the pressure to feel like I needed to look a certain way to compete with these other fitness influencers and some of the financial pressure of, all right, I'm back in the U S.

  What am I doing with my life? What am [00:04:00] I, you know, how do I go online? How do I make this work? All of those things really exacerbated binge eating. Now, I had always struggled with disordered eating. I don't think I had the terminology or the understanding that that's what was actually going on. I had struggled with anorexia, 12, 13.

  through most of high school. Then in college, I was a runner. I was a cross country runner, but I was massively struggling with binge eating. Again, don't know if I would have actually had that terminology or that wording for it at the time. I just felt out of [00:04:30] control with food. And then as an adult, multiple times throughout after college and whatever else, Whenever things would get really, really stressful, then binge eating or bulimia would kind of show up but never enough that I felt like I needed help or needed to like, I just didn't want to talk about it because I felt like a complete hypocrite.

  Here I am, a personal trainer, preaching health, people are coming up to me and they're like, oh my gosh, I wish I was as disciplined as you, blah, and I'm like, you have no idea what's going on behind closed doors. You have no idea how [00:05:00] much I hate the way I look and I'm constantly beating myself up I'm constantly thinking about food.

  I'm constantly restricting. I'm constantly then losing control, especially at night and all the things So anyway when I came online and I was trying to be a personal trainer online That's when it really came to a head and I was like, I can't help other people until I help myself And that's when I reached out.

  I have a friend. She's a registered dietitian. She showed me some things about intuitive eating, which like was mind blowing for me. Then I learned more about the [00:05:30] brain and neuroplasticity, learned about emotional regulation, system regulation, learning about stress management, learning about all of these different things, and then ended up creating this and it's how I was able to finally break out of this all or nothing mentality with food to finally have a healthy relationship with food, to finally feel comfortable and confident in my own skin, to focus on being the strongest version of myself rather than the smallest.

  And now I'm on a mission to help more women do the [00:06:00] same. So it started with a little bit of a selfish. And then it's turned into this beautiful mission

  Jess: But it's also, I mean, yeah, sure, selfish, but we have to learn to take care of ourselves and be able to continually take care of ourselves to serve others to the best of our ability, right? It's like pouring from an empty cup thing. We can't do that. And when you actually learn these sustainable ways to care for ourselves that aren't A binge eating cycle, or anorexia, or those things where it's about control.

  Where, like, those take up so much of our energy, or [00:06:30] how much it is about our appearance. Yeah, like you said, stronger, not smaller.

  Kelsey: that was such a part of it was I had put so much of myself worth. In the way that I looked, and in the way that my body looked. that was everything. It consumed so much of my headspace. It ruined vacations. It ruined relationships. It just was everything. And I want so badly for people to understand, life can be so different.

  Which is why I'm so, just, I love your mission. Love it.

  Jess: we want it spread. Yeah, the [00:07:00] wasting of energy on our appearance and trying to make it fit a mold and fit the societal quote unquote norm and to look a certain way we make all these sacrifices and we spend so much time and energy on how much we're eating and what we're eating, how much we're exercising, all of those things.

  But I think another layer of it too is like you've been in the personal training space for a long time and I feel like things are shifting and maybe that's my perspective, but for a long time there was just such this thing that like your body is your calling card as a personal trainer. you're like, if you're talking to people about, let's [00:07:30] say weight loss or something like that, and you're not touting a flat stomach or defined arms or whatever, and you're like, Oh, well, then who are they to talk?

  And there was such that mindset. But I really, at least maybe it's who I choose to surround myself with or my social media space that I've curated, but there isn't that talk anymore about body size, unless it's related to like, Hey, healthy bodies look a lot of different ways.

  Kelsey: Yes. I just came from a, International fitness summit in Ibiza, which was amazing. It was the very first time that [00:08:00] I, in five years, cause I've, I started this whole journey and my whole coaching thing back in 2019. And so for the first time, I'm back with other personal trainers. At first, it was a little bit triggering, like, Oh my gosh, I'm going to go back into this space.

  That was so toxic for me.

  Am I ready for this? And I'm going to be surrounded around other fitness influencers and like, what is that going to be like? And honestly, this group of coaches, I couldn't be more proud to be in the room So many of them talking about healthy relationship with [00:08:30] food, talking about mental health, talking about body image, talking about body dysmorphia.

  And understanding that we're trying to create a healthy lifestyle and it's not just the way that we look. I do think you're right. I think there is a shift happening in the industry. Obviously, sometimes it's a little bit slow and it's not everybody, but it is happening, which is so great to see.

  Jess: Yeah, it is really awesome. And it's one of those things. So I started coaching in 2017 and it was just, it was run coaching is where it started. And that extrapolated [00:09:00] from like my own obsession with running. And that was a whole, that's a whole nother story, but from the very beginning with any of my coaching clients, like the first conversation that we had around their goals and around their training and around all of that was, yes, I'm providing this program for you, but the very first thing I need you to understand is that your training does not exist in a vacuum. And this was, I feel like before a lot of those conversations were being had, or at least I was aware of those because a lot of the, the running social media space was like how to be a pro and how to train like an elite and all of those things. And [00:09:30] so it was such a great conversation to have with these people.

  Cause a lot of them were like, no rest days, no days off. Like that, that's how I function. Right. And you're like, no, no, no, no. There are so many other lifestyle factors that I've built into coaching over the years of like, If you have a family, if you have a full time job, if you have a long commute, if you have other external factors going on, the stress management piece, the sleep, the all of that plays a part into your training.

  It's not just raw data points.

  Kelsey: I can't believe you're even talking like, man, it's hitting a point for me right now. So back in July, [00:10:00] I had set a goal like, Ooh, I'm going to sign up for the Queenstown Marathon in New Zealand. And I'm going to run it for my birthday. I've never ran a marathon. I've always, I was always a runner in high school and college.

  I had to work on healing my relationship with running because running had become such a a way for me to compensate for my eating habits as opposed to something that I enjoyed. And so I had worked through that and I was starting to run again and was feeling really good. And I was like, you know what, why don't I set this goal and I'm going to do this marathon.

  Well, four weeks into the training, like at the time I was feeling [00:10:30] really, really good until about week four. And then, Everything started crashing. I was, I was having shin splints. I was having plantar fasciitis and I had lost my menstrual cycle, which I had lost in the past. Like, and it finally felt like, I was so happy to have it back.

  And it was this moment where I had to sit back and be honest, and this sucks because it's really recent. But I had to, Sit with myself and be like, okay, what are the other factors going on? And I had told you before we hit record I've been traveling full time Since mid may [00:11:00] so for over four months I've been traveling all over Europe and it's like two weeks two weeks two weeks.

  No more than two weeks anywhere All of that stress, along with running my own business, along with, all these other factors, not getting enough sleep, I had bumped up the volume, of training tremendously, like, all of these things, it adds up. And it was this point where, like, my body is not happy. we need to pause. Like, I have to be focusing on recovery and sleep. I literally just got my cycle back, three days ago. So it's, again, super recent. It was after 77 [00:11:30] days without it. Like, so it was right before, that point of, like, hey, maybe we need a diagnosis or see what's going on.

  But I'm so glad you were having those conversations because it's not spoken about enough.

  Jess: No, it's not. those other pieces, cause you're like, people would be so quick to be like, oh, it was the running. The run, like, running is what made you lose your cycle. Sure, but it was a part of 

  17 other 

  things going on. And that's one piece of like, traveling since May. Amazing, and so many explorations and opportunities and new places and all of that, but there is an inherent stress [00:12:00] that comes with that.

  Like, we travel three to four weeks at a time a couple times a year is what we try to do, and even just that, we love it, it's so much fun, but there's still a stress that comes with being in a place you're unfamiliar with, not speaking a language, not knowing, I mean, we know where we are, we have Google Maps now, but like, not knowing a place well.

  There's the comfort that comes with that. There's a lot of like mental stress that comes with that too. Yeah. it. 

  plays into it. 

  Kelsey: You don't realize it. And obviously it's amazing and I wouldn't trade it for the world. Like that was, this has been such an amazing adventure, but it's just recognizing, [00:12:30] okay, cool. If that's the priority right now, then maybe a marathon isn't quite it for this season of your life right now.

  And that's okay.

  Jess: Seasons of life are such a common topic on the podcast because it's just, it's not realistic to think that we're going to have this constant state having seasons of give and take of, you know, I see a lot of people posting as the leaves are changing right now of like recognize seasons of life because The earth has seasons for a reason.

  So do we. and that's something too, that I would say relating things to seasons has [00:13:00] been in the last probably three years for me, because I was such the, like, set a goal, chase it until it's accomplished. Set a goal, chase it and like, keep going. And who have developed this self compassion to understand those seasons.

  I mean, I spent 10 years running everything from five K's to 50 K's. 

  Like just across the board trail races, road races, all of it. I loved running and I switched gears into powerlifting and it was like, okay, this isn't the season to be running a marathon. I want to lift and so I got in I was doing competitive powerlifting for a while and then it was like [00:13:30] Okay, this isn't the season to tax my central nervous system this hard There's so many things other factors going on in my world.

  Okay, how do I continue to lift that supports my goals? And honestly what I enjoy because I love lifting heavy shit. But you also, like, that recognition of, yeah, doing six sets of two of heavy squats is really taxing on the CNS. And if you're traveling a lot, that's probably not something you're repeating all the time. okay I feel like we could go off in so many different directions with this right now, but I want to talk a little bit more about your coaching. So, you talked a little bit [00:14:00] about food freedom, just with your history of overcoming this disordered eating, and working through that and being like, alright, I don't want to see women make these choices, I want them to be empowered to live the lives that they want.

  regardless of how they look. like, so tell me a little bit more about what food freedom means and like, any practical tips on how someone might start on that direction?

  Kelsey: For sure. And I know, like, the term food freedom, it can definitely have like a bad reputation, depending. At the time when I was searching for more control, right? Like I was struggling with binge eating. I felt out of [00:14:30] control. I'm like, that food freedom, like that's great for you, but I, that can't be for me.

  Like if I don't have these rules. Like, if I don't have these parameters, like, I'll eat myself into oblivion. So, like, this whole idea of food freedom actually sounded really terrifying at the time. And now I recognize food freedom really is the ability to say no to foods, if that's not in alignment with your values or your goals.

  And it's the ability to say yes to all food experiences to give yourself like an intuitive eating. One of the core principles is to have unconditional [00:15:00] permission to eat U P E. And it just basically means that I don't have to follow any strict rules. like the eating window for fasting, or I can't have, this many carbs or whatever else it's allowing yourself this freedom to have the experience.

  And the best way that I would say to start that is to practice food neutrality. And that's this idea that food is not good or bad. There's no morality. Food is just food. Yes, certain foods are more nutrient dense than others, but you are not a bad [00:15:30] person if you choose to eat a donut, and you are not a good person if you choose to eat an apple.

  it's morally the exact same. And so, getting out of that idea of calling foods bad, forbidden, cheat. Like, for me, I'm always like, Think of your diet like a relationship. If you had to cheat in order to stay in your relationship, probably not the relationship for you.

  Jess: probably not sustainable.

  either.

  Kelsey: And it's, again, this idea that when we say cheat, now I'm a bad person, now I feel guilt, now I feel shame. And the problem is that often creates cue [00:16:00] induced wanting. Oftentimes we turn to food because we feel bad, but because we ate, now we feel bad. But because we feel bad, we eat. Because we ate, we feel bad.

  It's just this constant shame cycle. there's a Brené Brown quote that I absolutely love that says like, we cannot shame or belittle people into making behavior change. And so often we're constantly beating ourselves up. We're constantly belittling ourselves. I shouldn't have done that. I can't believe I whatever else.

  it only perpetuates the problem. It only makes the self sabotage even worse. And [00:16:30] so for me, food freedom is this idea that. I would say rather than strict rules, I have guidelines that are based on my values based on how I, my body wants to feel, focusing on my own internal hunger and fullness cues.

  What makes my body feel its best, but also recognizing that there is space for experiences like, I have my 96 year old grandfather, and we always will go out for brunch, and I will get chocolate chip pancakes. And I am so thrilled that I get to go out [00:17:00] to brunch with my grandfather, have these beautiful conversations, enjoy chocolate chip pancakes, and I'm not sitting there obsessing about the food, I'm actually fully present, and then guess what, I can just move on with my life afterwards.

  that's food freedom. Where I'm able to go on vacation. And I eat foods that are nourishing. I focus on what I can add, like adding protein, adding fiber, adding color, right, while still being able to enjoy ice cream by the pool. that's what food freedom is for me.

  Jess: That's awesome. Okay, so [00:17:30] my follow up question to this just from my own experience of food freedom and intuitive eating, not my personal, but through other conversations and coaching and things, A lot of people in the introduction to these concepts tend to use it as blanket permission to eat like an asshole, eat the kitchen. So where is there, like, I like the idea of talking about guidelines. Is there a place for someone that's like, all right, I am an all or nothing person and you are telling me that I have freedom with food. I'm not going to moralize it. So I'm going to eat everything. All the time. Non [00:18:00] stop. The people who, like, Oh, I can't have that in the house.

  Or I'm going to eat all of it.

  Kelsey: Oh, this is so great. So this again, this was me. That was absolutely me. And I would say that the women that I specifically work with have been the ones who have been on the spectrum, the huge pendulum where, okay, maybe they do want fat loss or weight loss, but they know that the ways that they've gone about it in the past, the over restriction, the obsessive food rules, the obsessive counting, like, They know that that's unsustainable and that doesn't work.

  And then maybe they've heard of intuitive eating or they're trying to go, but it's like [00:18:30] swung way too far that now they don't, either they just don't feel comfortable in their, their body and they, they don't feel good energetically. Right. And they're like, I have freedom. I have food freedom, but this feels like 

  Jess: Yay! I can do whatever I want! But now my stomach hurts.

  Kelsey: well, let's come back to body respect. So for me, like, that's where my program comes in as far as like, let's find that great, that gray zone, which is, again, we have a podcast called embracing the gray, getting out of that black or white mentality. So for me, we have, I'll talk about the first four.

  We have part of the [00:19:00] freedom roadmap. And so the first one is find your why, like really get clear about the motivation, because if it's just about losing weight, Oftentimes, like, we'll do anything just to see that scale move, and it's not about your health, it's not about the way you feel, right?

  Like, you can take laxatives, you can purge, you can run, like, you know, you can do all these things that, yes, maybe you'll lose weight, but is it the healthiest thing? And so, what is the actual why? Why, why is it that you want to Lose weight or look a certain way or all the things or have a healthier relationship with food.

  Can we make the [00:19:30] primary reason to have a healthy relationship with food in your body? The second one is retraining our brain around the way that we look at food and body image, understanding weight stigma, understanding body image is a perception of the way that we feel about ourselves. and then understanding that, again, that food neutrality bit.

  Then we have emotionally regulate, again, F R E E. So emotionally regulating, learning ways to deal with our emotions. beyond food. I'm not saying that food can't be a way that we deal with emotions, but it shouldn't be the only tool in our toolbox. And then the last one is [00:20:00] what I term and love is eating intentionally.

  So I firmly believe, like, I love intuitive eating. I love the principles. I think it's beautiful. But if you've been chronically dieting or struggling with binge eating, you can't just eat intuitively. Your hunger cues are all over the place. And so in order to bring those hunger cues back, and in order to rebuild trust with your body, that it is going to be nourished, we must first eat intentionally.

  And the best way that I would encourage people to go about this is we're going to have set meal times. [00:20:30] And this may mean that you're going to have to eat, even if you're not physically hungry at first, because you can retrain those hunger fullness cues to come back. Like a muscle, but it is going to take you like choosing these times I recommend for most people that we're looking for about three to five meal experiences in a day So getting away from this skipping meals and getting away from the constant grazing So we're having these set meal times, usually about three to four hours apart, which actually is really optimal as well for MPS.

  So [00:21:00] muscle protein synthesis, as far as like building muscle being able to stimulate that every three to four hours. if you're actually making sure you're getting enough protein in those, so if I have breakfast, lunch, snack, If you struggle with overeating at night, or if you struggle with eating all the ingredients while you're making dinner, please, Put an intentional snack between lunch and dinner.

  It will make a world of difference. And so, we're having breakfast, lunch, snack, dinner. Each of these are following the balanced plate method as much as possible. So we're making [00:21:30] sure that half the plate is fruits and vegetables. Lots of color. Again, everything we're going to be doing is what can we add.

  We have a very inclusive approach to food. And so adding those fruits and vegetables, that's half the plate. A quarter of the plate is protein or a palm size for women is protein. That can be again, any sort of chicken, fish meat. It could be eggs. It could be tofu. It could be lentils. It could be beans.

  Like there's lots of ways we can go about it. And then a quarter of the plate is some sort of a complex carbohydrate. So that can be rice, potatoes bread, [00:22:00] whatever else, pasta. It's fine. Like we need the carbohydrates, especially if you're. Lifting, especially if you're active and then our fat source, our healthy fat source tends to be things that is going to be like the dressing is going to be things we're cooking with, like the oil we're cooking with, or it could be avocado, nuts, seeds, but making sure that we have the, All of those bits in there.

  Another way of thinking about it. Abby Sharpe. She's a Dietitian in Canada. She came up with the hunger crushing combo and it's protein fiber fat. Where's the protein? Where's the fiber? Where's the fat? And if I can make sure [00:22:30] that my four meals and or snack, whatever has those components. I know that I'm going to feel nourished.

  I'm going to feel satisfied. I'm going to have more energy. I'm going to feel really good. And then beyond that, if I have cravings, if there's something I really, really want, say I want chocolate, can we possibly consider food pairing? Can I have the chocolate with, say, Greek yogurt and some berries?

  Because the Greek yogurt's going to have protein, the berries are going to add fiber, going to add color. I'm going to feel more nourished. I'm going to feel better. It's [00:23:00] going to help with my blood glucose levels. And I still get to enjoy the chocolate. it all can fit, but it's having those guidelines.

  Jess: Okay, so I think a lot about mindfulness when it comes to eating, right? When you think about where you're saying set meal times. My first thought is how busy people are, how much we have going on in our lives, to then, like, I'm notorious. That's actually funny.

  It's sitting right here. I'm notorious for reading my Kindle while eating a meal. And I just love this thought of like setting meal times because that [00:23:30] too in my mind is saying, Okay, that is your time to eat, to be present, to enjoy the food, right? Slow down. 

  Taste each bite. 

  Kelsey: Like it's going to be massive. So mindful eating is a huge part of it. And I just recently got off a huge course where they were teaching functional health practitioners all about gut microbiome and gut health and all the things. the very first protocol. With, if you've got gut issues, if you've got malabsorption or maldigestion, the first protocol is mindful eating.

  [00:24:00] It's because everything starts with the way that we're coming about it. If you're coming into the meal stressed, that's going to impact your hormones and the way things are, are going to be digested. Like so even coming to your mealtime and taking two deep breaths to slow down and like to stimulate the parasympathetic nervous system.

  Your rest and digest nervous system is going to be super helpful. Being able to actually just sit down, look at your food, get all of the sensations in, right? Smell your food, actually [00:24:30] chew, taste. What is the texture? What is the taste? Is it bitter? Is it sweet? Is it salty? What is the temperature? Right? And everything All of these factors, can you use this as productive mindfulness?

  This can be a meditative experience. And I understand this does not have to be every single meal. we are busy. At the same time, can you commit to at least one meal where you allow yourself this time to actually be present? And you may find it's uncomfortable. It's just like meditation.

  Sometimes it is [00:25:00] uncomfortable for us to be still. And to like, recognize we're going to have thoughts that are coming up, we're going to have feelings that are coming up, you know, and, and can you sit with that and just be there in the moment. And the thing that you'll realize is all of a sudden, if you're eating slowly, setting your fork down between bites, you're actually chewing each bite thoroughly, is you'll realize you get full way sooner.

  Because oftentimes that's the problem. It takes 15 to 20 minutes for our fullness cues to kick in. But most of us, if we're honest with ourselves, it takes about five to eight [00:25:30] minutes for us to finish our meal. And we're like, Oh crap. Like I didn't even realize it. I just cleaned my plate mindlessly.

  Jess: I love that you're talking about like the mindfulness and meditation piece because as my poor sturdy girl listeners are so tired of hearing about, I have just been binge reading on Buddhism recently. Because a lot of body image research is based on acceptance and commitment therapy and acceptance and commitment therapy principles come from a lot of Buddhist teachings.

  I naturally, I was like, alright, we've gotta, we've learn more about this. And the amount [00:26:00] of tie ins in everyday life, in coaching, in all of these, that I just keep coming up with. Upon of how much this ties into being present, being able to sit with our thoughts, how uncomfortable that is, you know, going back to talking about food, like there's no morality attached to food.

  That's another just concept in Buddhism is realizing that we place meaning on things. Not just food, everything in our lives. From like, watching a movie and we decide who the bad guy is and who the [00:26:30] good guy is for these certain reasons. We're placing these labels, placing meaning on things. And we inherently do that with food because that's what's been taught to us. Over and over and over again. The person who chooses the salad over the burger at the restaurant. Well, they clearly care about their health more, right? Like, we've moralized that so much. So, I like this of being able to sit down and enjoy a single, at least one meal a day. Of being present for that, actually chewing the food, enjoying, being intentional about the foods that you choose.

  And when I'm working with [00:27:00] clients on nutrition, we talk a lot about the concept of what can you add? Because a lot of times when people start considering their diets as in like everything that they eat for definition of diet, the first thing they want to do is restrict. They want to take away something, whether it's a whole food group or less of a certain macro or whatever it is.

  That's the first response we have is, well, I'm automatically like I'm eating too much. I'm going to eat less. And then they don't think about the quality of what they're eating or like the whole trend. When I first started coaching, it was all over social media was like, if it fits your macros

  and how many people are eating while on [00:27:30] the go, eating while standing up, eating while doing other things.

  Kelsey: It's so much more about the actual behavior

  Jess: can I tell a story real quick?

  Kelsey: Please. 

  Jess: So another thing I keep thinking about too, with just food freedom with mindful eating, with all of that, and then talking about the importance of sitting down with our meals and enjoying it. Is there is an, I'm going to butcher this study, absolutely. But how I can recollect it was they did a study of this, like 300 calorie shake.

  Kelsey: Oh, yes. 

  Love 

  Jess: do you remember this? Yeah. So, and they presented it to one group with this [00:28:00] chocolate shake that was like, they had the same nutrient profile in it. They told one group that this was like a super decadent 650 calorie shake with ice cream and chocolate and all the things.

  And then they told the other group that this is a health shake and their bodies responded accordingly To what they were told so it's not just the nutrients in the food It is like you said, it's the hormones. It is the emotional response It is so many things that go into that

  Kelsey: But this is why I'm so frustrated with some of the [00:28:30] influencers out there with the fear mongering. I promise you, this is what's creating so much malabsorption, so much mal digestion is we have all of this stress, We end up eating these things and then we feel terrible about it, or we're, having all this shame story about it.

  And if we can understand that it's much more about our behaviors, that it's much more about, like you said, the, energy that we're bringing into this. when it comes to we, our first response is to restrict, restrict, restrict. It's seriously like me saying, Hey, whatever you do, don't think of a pink elephant.

  Stop thinking of the pink. [00:29:00] I know you're thinking about the pink elephant. Stop thinking about the pink elephant. Right? It's the same thing where you're like, no pizza, no pizza, no pizza, no pizza. What are you thinking about?

  Pizza. 

  Jess: good a double stuffed cheese pizza is gonna be

  Kelsey: Exactly! Like, our, our brains, they, there was a whole study done I just, like, looked this up.

  I think it was, like, 1987, a Harvard study they would tell one group, to not think of a white bear and one one group to think about a white bear and the group that was told not to think about the white bear thought about it [00:29:30] like, three or five times more in five minutes than the other group.

  And so it's the same thing, like, And they called it the ironic process theory that when we're told not to think about something, we actually end up thinking about it more because our brain is checking in that we're not thinking about it, which is so silly, but it is that thing that the more we tell ourselves, no, no, no, it actually creates more of a desire.

  And it also like, we're thinking about it even more. So the cravings are even higher, whereas like, and I talk about it all the time, what you focus on expands. So if you're [00:30:00] focusing on all the foods you can't have, that's what you're just going to keep seeing. Whereas if we can focus on all the foods that we can add, and how it's going to make us feel, that's what we're going to start seeing.

  And those other foods that maybe weren't as nourishing will just kind of naturally diminish without us feeling restricted or deprived.

  Jess: Or like you said, it's really when you're adding in those other foods, it's, okay, I really want nacho cheese Doritos. Okay. Well, make it part of your meal. And in that meal, you also have a protein source and a fiber source and a [00:30:30] fat and like, what kind of colors are in there and having that when you're 

  building your plate.

  Kelsey: let's add some black beans or let's add some, like, beef. and then it becomes almost like a game and it can become enjoyable. And I, I want people to come back into that space where food is a beautiful part of our life experience. it's part of connection. It's part of tradition.

  It's culture. Like, I was just traveling all over Europe, joyfully eating my way through Europe. It was fabulous. I wouldn't want that experience tainted by guilt or [00:31:00] shame or fear of what it's going to do to my body. It's just, I'm here and I'm choosing this experience right now and I'm going to enjoy it.

  And the best part is when you do that, you tend to feel so much more satisfied and eat less.

  Jess: Because there's not so much mental and emotional hangup on it.

  Kelsey: Exactly. 

  Jess: I'm just trying to envision going to France and Not eating macarons, or croissants, or crepes, 

  or

  Kelsey: Oh my God. And like, that's the whole, like, you've heard the French paradox, right?

  Jess: Yep. 

  Kelsey: It's this thing where, again, it's not, for me, I always put up like [00:31:30] a pie chart when it comes to healthy eating. if you're focused on what you're eating, you've missed the point. It's why and how that actually matter. And if we can focus on that, if we can add that like mindfulness, if we can add why am I eating right now, am I eating because I'm physically hungry? Am I eating because I'm wanting to avoid or distract myself from an uncomfortable emotion? Am I eating because this is a life experience that I really want to have?

  Like, that why really matters. And how? Am I eating [00:32:00] it out of shame and hiding it so no one can see me or I'm throwing the wrappers deep in the trash can so no one knows? Or am I here and I'm enjoying it and, and savoring every bite? It all matters.

  Jess: Then that comes back to that mindful eating piece. Because then also that mindfulness is, so many of us I think, because we have so much going on in our worlds, or in recent conversations with people who are coaches for moms specifically, this is where my brain went, is they get so busy taking care of other humans that they legitimately will forget to eat.

  [00:32:30] And then you lose connection with your hunger and fullness cues. So then you're like, am I hungry? I think so. Well, when was the last time I ate? What did I, what did I eat? I gotta think about this. Like that mindfulness piece is being aware of it. And like you said, like the scheduling meal times. 

  I like that. 

  Kelsey: definitely schedule it. I will say there's a tool that I use. I'm not affiliated. Like I don't get any whatever. but I've used it since March, 2020, almost every single day. And it's a way for me to have awareness of the timing between meals, especially as I was traveling and I'm in all different time zones and [00:33:00] all the things.

  So it's called the ate app. A T E. you can have a free seven day trial, whatever else. it's been absolutely life changing for me. And what you do is you rather than like tracking your macros or your calories or your points or whatever else, all you do is you take a picture of your meal before you eat.

  And it actually tracks the time of how long you took to eat that meal. You can set little reminders to like, have a little alarm go off 10 minutes after your meal and if you've finished, Hey, maybe in our next one we need to slow down a little bit, huh? and you can also see like, [00:33:30] for me it's almost like a game.

  Because then I'll, I'm like, Ooh, I'm starting to feel, cause now gentle hunger. I know what gentle hunger feels like. It's kind of a feeling in the back of my throat or maybe some fogginess in my head. Maybe I'll rumble in my stomach. And then I'll be like, huh, I'm feeling kind of hungry. I'll look at my eight app.

  I'm like, yep, it's been about three, three and a half hours. That makes sense. And it's just this, you know, cool way for me to monitor my eating habits rather than feeling like I need to obsess about the macros, calories, or points. So just a tool out there if people would find that [00:34:00] useful.

  Jess: No, that's fantastic. I use the coaching app EverFit for my clients, and there's a food journal portion of it where you can upload your photos of your food, and I'm like, man, that could be an easy way for people to, like, semi do that 

  kind of thing, too. 

  Kelsey: it's adding friction as well, right? Like it's, it takes a little bit to get the habit, but it adds friction before mindlessly eating

  if that makes sense. So like pausing and like if people could just get into the habit of just pausing before something in their mouth. That's a huge habit to start [00:34:30] working on and to help.

  Jess: Yeah, it's like, first awareness, and then the pause. Like, how am I responding? 

  Yeah! 

  I want to segue away from food because I wanted to talk with you a little bit about Growth mindset 

  I so love this. I was first introduced to this from coach Casey, Joe Casey Orvitas. I don't know if you follow her on social, but I did her health mindset coaching certification a few years ago, and it completely shifted the way that I coach.

  So really playing into a lot of these principles that we've already gone over. But this growth [00:35:00] mindset, I. Have Carol Dweck's book behind me somewhere

  on that shelf. So yes, I would love for you to take this in any direction you want to, if you want to define growth mindset, if you want to 

  go into that, 

  Kelsey: I love it. 

  Yes. I think like the big thing for me that stands out with growth mindset is that word yet. And I know Carol Dweck talks about it in her TED talk. Like, I highly recommend anyone watch it. but just to kind of reiterate or summarize, it's this idea. I love, she talked about the inner city kids that I think they were a math [00:35:30] class and rather than being given the, a failing grade, they were given the grade not.

  Yet, and it was this beautiful understanding of rather than identifying as a failure. It was this idea. Oh, I just haven't figured it out yet. And I want us to think through that with different aspects of our life. And it could be, you know, it could be struggling with your weight. It could be struggling with food.

  This was the one thing that changed everything for me. There was a moment. I remember it so clear as day. It was. I was in [00:36:00] Colorado staying with a friend and it was the first time where I asked myself, if struggling with food or binge eating didn't have to be true for me? what if it was possible for me to have a life where that actually wasn't a struggle?

  And that question, that thought changed everything because then for the first time I actually decided to try something different and to go about things differently. And I had another client and she's had a huge, like she's lost over 150 pounds. She's. Since [00:36:30] started her own bit like just a whole life transformation and when I first met her She was massively struggling with binge eating and she just came to me and she's just like this is my cross to bear This is just who I am.

  would like the noise to be a little bit quieter But I know this is something I'm gonna have forever which is something I really struggle with when people label themselves as an addict or they label themselves as Whatever their diagnosis is and they identify with it. And there's that whole idea like if you defend your limitations, you get to keep [00:37:00] it. and I'm not saying that these things aren't real, that we don't have tendencies, that we don't have things that we still need to work through, but the more that you identify with it, the more you're not even going to try because you have this fixed mindset that this is just who I am. And so a growth mindset is, I just haven't figured it out yet, but it's still possible for me.

  And when you defend your possibilities, then you can create it. And so for me, if more people can just understand this, that it's just going to take, you're just going to have to keep going. And so like for me, like, I just, I [00:37:30] can't do this yet. I haven't figured this out yet, but it's still possible.

  And then you're going to keep going. That's growth mindset for me. And I just want people to start. recognizing and listening to their own stories in their head. Are you saying, Oh, I always struggle with this food. I hear that all the time. Like I can't bring that food into the house. I always overeat it.

  Right. Those limiting beliefs, or I'm always going to struggle with my weight. And for me, like one of the three words I would give people besides like, you know, the word yet is super important, but the three words I would also give is I used to really struggle with [00:38:00] overeating this food.

  I used to really struggle with. My weight. I used to really struggle with Whatever it is. Even if right now it's still something you're massively struggling with. Like, peanut butter was one of those things I struggled to keep in the house. But I kept saying it over and over again. I used to really struggle with keeping peanut butter in the house.

  But now, I am becoming someone who trusts herself with all foods. I am becoming someone who has a healthy relationship with food. I am becoming someone who feels comfortable and confident in her own skin. I am [00:38:30] becoming.

  Jess: 100%. and the thought of becoming, so this one piece of growth mindset for me is, is first having people figure out who they want to be

  and so often it's like, well, I'm just this kind of person. I'm just this. so when we talk about always and never and I'm just, those things are what come up when you're like, okay, there is an area where we show a fixed mindset.

  And one thing I want to point out too, is this growth mindset, we can talk about this in general terms, but we can talk about this as so domain specific

  [00:39:00] because you could have a growth mindset about one thing and a fixed mindset about another.

  Kelsey: So true.

  Jess: Because that, that's something that people just think it's like an overarching, like label, like, Oh, I'm someone who has a growth mindset.

  Okay, sure. But you also place this limitation on yourself that I'm just always going to be this person that struggles with food, even though you have a growth mindset around your progress with lifting. it's specific to our areas of life. And I love this when I think about people who just talk about innate talents.

  Oh, I, I'm just a math person. ah, spelling was just never my thing. Or you just haven't [00:39:30] taken the time to build that skill.

  Yeah, it's that yet piece. it's so freeing in a way, and I wish people could see that. Because I, when you start talking about growth mindset, people are like, oh man, like, were you talking psychology?

  We're getting deep here, okay? Like, no, I'll speak for myself personally, and as a coach, I just want to see people live the lives that they are capable of.

  Take away the self imposed governor,

  take away those limits to show yourself you're capable of growth in whatever area you want to.

  Kelsey: It's huge. Like, it's been interesting, because now learning this, [00:40:00] and I'm always working and making progress on different areas, right? And you're never done, That's why it's still, we're becoming. I used to say, I, I love that you said, it's always, never, I'm just, because I, the amount of times that I hear, like, I never can control myself with this food.

  I always lose control with this. I'm just an all or nothing person. and, or, I mean, like, I used to say things like, I have commitment issues. is that the reality you want? Right? And if it's not, then stop defending it. And let's start thinking about who it is that you [00:40:30] want to be.

  And you're absolutely right. We first have to have that vision of who is she. And then we can start thinking about, well, what kind of habits, behaviors, what choices would she make? How can I start acting as if I'm already her right now? And then from there, we have to be able to recognize and celebrate our wins.

  that's the thing, we all have a confirmation bias. And so we're constantly looking for evidence to confirm our own biases. And so if you believe that you're an all or nothing person, if you believe [00:41:00] that you're always going to struggle, you will look for evidence to confirm that. And what you focus on expands.

  So it's really important that we do the opposite. I have a journal that I, I give to all my clients and prompts, and it's like this three two one journal. And it's, you know, three things you're grateful for, two things you're proud of yourself for, and then like, what was your learning or what was your intention for the day? Every day, can you take a moment and recognize your wins? Recognize the things that you did do, because far too often we spend so much [00:41:30] time focusing on our insecurities, on our shortcomings, on the things that that we don't like about ourselves. Whereas if we can focus on the things that we do love about ourselves, that we can appreciate, that we are proud of, that's what's going to expand, that's what we're going to see.

  And then the more evidence, like this is Atomic Habits, like every action is just casting a vote for the type of person you want to be. All we're doing is trying to build evidence that I am indeed this type of person. 

  then it's just who 

  you are. It just becomes who you are.

  Jess: and I think too, you and I [00:42:00] both personally have done work on this. And then also with clients is just, The finding who we want to be, 

  because that is such a big piece. And we could rabbit hole on this so hard, but just worth mentioning of there. I have a number of podcast episodes on figuring out our own core values and exploring that piece of like what we want.

  And I think I need to do justice and have another like full episode on this, but this. Art of becoming, if you will, is actually taking that time. So we go back to mindfulness of being able to sit with ourselves and take the time to be like, Do I [00:42:30] want this? Do I like this? What don't I like?

  Where do I start with this? Because who do I want to become? And do I want to become that person because that's what I want? Or what society has told me? Or my family? Or my friends? Or the people that say I'm this kind of person, so I should do this? Why am I making these choices? Because that's, that is one piece that, that People fail to do.

  I have turned down clients in the past because they'll come to me and tell me they want to run a marathon and then you get underneath it and it's actually, they want to lose weight because someone told them that they were fat or their doctor told them they needed to lose weight and the [00:43:00] answer to them, for them, was to sign up for a marathon. 

  Kelsey: I would never recommend 

  running like, 

  Jess: no, but I mean, and, and that's that piece though of like, I wanted to become a marathoner. No, no, no. The first place we're gonna start is our relationship here, and here. Head and heart. We gotta figure out who the heck we are.

  Kelsey: I love it. See, and I'm not kidding. I don't, again, I don't know if it's my echo chamber. I don't know if it's again, my reticular activating system and like, that's what I'm just seeing more of. I'm seeing more coaches like you. I'm finding more coaches who are holistic, who [00:43:30] are wanting to see the whole person and wanting to do that inside out approach.

  And I love it. I'm here for it. Like I just want to shout it out to the rooftops, which is why we have, we have to do an Instagram live or a podcast or all the things. Cause like, we need this message going out.

  Jess: We really do. And it's, we can say things like people are listening right now and they listen to the episode and they're like, Oh yeah, that all sounds great. And we're saying, no, no, it's hitting pause on this. And it's sitting down with ourselves to take that time to then start doing the work. And we're not saying that any of this is easy.

  When we talk about [00:44:00] growth mindset, when we talk about food freedom, when we talk about all of these things, we are forever and always a work in progress. 

  it's the journey, not the destination, right, is what they talk about. And that's like a lifelong concept to even 

  Kelsey: It's so true. 

  Jess: it's worthwhile. I mean, one of the things that I have said a hundred times over on Sturdy Girl is our relationship with ourselves is the most valuable and most intimate and long term relationship we will ever have.

  Kelsey: 100%. 

  Jess: worth spending time on. 

  Kelsey: the best part is, is like, when you do [00:44:30] that, the confidence that you then exude, it attracts beautiful people into your life. it's like you said at the very beginning, you're able to give more. I always think of like, you can't give from an empty pitcher, right?

  Like, we can't fill any other cups if we're empty. And so it is really important that we are taking care of ourselves, that we, and that's where that food freedom and all those things come in, is like, am I eating in a way that is Body respect.

  and for me, like it's not saying that we can't still have weight loss or fat loss goals.

  Like that's awesome. Full [00:45:00] body autonomy. You do you, I'm here to support you. All I ask is can that be a secondary goal? And our primary goal is that I'm here to have a beautiful relationship with my body, with myself. and recognizing that often when we strive for health. And body respect.

  Oftentimes, our aesthetic goals will just naturally follow as a byproduct.

  Jess: Also side note, I feel like this bears repeating. When we talk body image, it is 100 percent normal and okay to have aesthetic goals. [00:45:30] While also working on our body image, working on ourselves, it's allowed, we can support that, but we first have to work on the brains 

  Kelsey: It took me so long to, like, get to that place, though, 

  because, like, the intuitive eating food freedom world, body positive world, sometimes makes you feel bad about having those, like, the sh I'm shamed for wanting to have weight loss or fat loss or aesthetic goals, and I'm finally at this place, I'm like, no, I have full body autonomy, I'm absolutely allo And you all, like We're allowed to have these things, but let's just [00:46:00] come about it in a sustainable way, in a way that makes us feel good and recognizing that fat loss is not synonymous with improved body image.

  they are different things.

  Jess: Body image is a brain thing.

  It's internal, it's not external. 

  Kelsey: Exactly. But you can have both. And that's been a beautiful, like, place for me to discover even more recently, I'd say, even within this year, which is so freeing as a coach.

  Jess: It's, like I said, it's continual work. We are always, always in the process. Okay. I feel like we [00:46:30] kind of touched on this as we brought this full circle, but if you could pick one thing that you want Sturdy Girl listeners to remember from this episode, would it be?

  Kelsey: I think it is that bit of just, you are capable of anything you set your mind to. Like, truly, it may take longer than you want it to. Like, it 

  may take longer than you like, and that's okay. and I think If, like you said, this whole idea, rather than the destination, it's the journey. If you can recognize that, I think it's Susan David who said this, that becoming is better than [00:47:00] being. That it really is this idea, it's about who you get to become along the way, and if you were to be given a human being, and you wanted that human being to have the trait of patience, the trait of resiliency, the trait of discipline, like, you wouldn't just give them things, it's who we become through these difficult moments.

  It's learning perseverance. It's learning resiliency. It's learning that I am a strong person. It's having the courage to stand back up. but you [00:47:30] can only do that if you're going through difficult things. If you're pushing yourself outside of your comfort zone, being willing to fail and looking at failure, not as an identity, but as an opportunity for growth, for learning.

  Those are the things that I want people to take away. You are absolutely capable of the relationship that you want, of the health that you want, of the career that you want And just recognizing, like you said, making sure that you're checking in and that, where is that desire coming from? If it's a real, [00:48:00] internal, it's authentic, it's all you and it's deep there, that fire, it's there for a frickin reason. Please don't let it go.

  Jess: mic drop. Let's go. This is so good. And I feel like we probably could have chatted for hours longer We're going to podcast swap. So it's perfect. A few fun wrap up questions unrelated to coaching or sturdy girl or anything, but if you had to pick one food to eat for the rest of your life, 

  what would it be? 

  Kelsey: don't get me wrong. I love anything chocolate chip cookies. [00:48:30] And, Pizooki, like a pizza cookie, let's go but I couldn't have it every, I would not feel good. it was something that I absolutely actually do eat every single day. Eggs and spinach. It's so ridiculous. In every country that I've gone to, as long as I have eggs and spinach, I'm fine.

  it's so boring. And usually I have it on toast or whatever else, but as long as I know I have those factors, it gives me my protein, fiber, and fat and I actually genuinely enjoy it. So, 

  Jess: Do you put cheese on it or no? 

  Kelsey: you know what I've been doing lately? So, and usually I have like [00:49:00] onions, peppers, mushrooms, like I do a whole You know, veggie mix, but I've been adding cottage cheese.

  into my scrambled eggs 

  for some added protein. 

  So I've been 

  really enjoying that.

  The 

  Jess: underrated, because people are like, ew, cottage cheese and eggs, the texture changes 

  and it's so good.

  Kelsey: it's fluffy. Now I will say you, you're going to have to like, it's going to go a little bit longer. You've got to cook it a little bit longer. Otherwise it might be a little bit like watery if you don't like take the time with it. But man, when you do. 

  Jess: It's 

  so good. Oh good. we always put 21 [00:49:30] Seasoning Salute from Trader Joe's 

  in our eggs, yeah. 

  Kelsey: when I head back to Europe, I'm gonna have to like, take all the seasonings, like everything bagel seasoning, like, just like, take it with me.

  Jess: Your carry on is just a lineup of 

  jars of seasonings. 

  Kelsey: Like, don't worry about it, it's fine. 

  Jess: No, I have nothing to declare.

  Okay, is there anything that you're loving lately? An activity, a thing, something you recently purchased 

  and now can't live without? 

  Kelsey: Right now that I'm, I am still loving, even though it is exhausting, is travel. but I realized, so I I [00:50:00] did a values exercise and really talking about, Rather than values being like integrity or whatever else, it was like, what are the things that you actually love doing? And I got a cool pie chart at the end of it, and huge, like 28 percent or whatever else compared to all the other things was relationships. And so for me, I don't travel to see things. I don't travel to really mark something off my bucket list I travel to see people and I travel for relationships. And so I've been traveling all [00:50:30] over Europe, reconnecting with I I'd been in India to get my yoga certification.

  So I've been able to reconnect with all my friends from yoga school, which was super cool. and now being here is able to be with my family. Best friend since, for over 25 years. I'm now here in Idaho visiting my brother. being able to have the freedom to travel and really connect deeply and spend quality time with the people I love, here for it.

  Jess: So, side note for just a second, talking about relationships though, there is like the longest standing study, the [00:51:00] Harvard study, that's been going since 1938. So I read a book called The Good Life and they talk all about one of the biggest indicators of someone who talks about having a long and fulfilled life is the quality of their relationships.

  Number one, hands down. Not genetics, not your activity level, not your diet, not smoking, drinking, whatever. Quality of your 

  Kelsey: I feel it. Like, it's one of those things I really do live off this, the, the top five regrets of the dying. those are in my head like crazy. I was on a flight from Munich to Barcelona. It was one of the scariest flights I've ever been on. I'm not [00:51:30] really sure why, but the turbulence was crazy.

  everyone to my, the aisle to the right was puking. The guy in the middle seat right next to me was just like holding onto the ceiling, pulling out the, like, it was just chaotic. And it was this moment where I'm just sitting there and I am looking down at my hands and all of a sudden just felt this immense.

  amount of peace. I do not live a conventional life at all. I literally live out of my suitcase that I've named Bertha. but it's, it's this moment where I'm just like, if this plane were to go [00:52:00] down right now, you know what? I am very proud of the way that I've lived my life. And yes, there's so much more I want to experience and I want to do and all the things, but I know that the people in my life know how much I care about them and how much I love them.

  I know that I have had the courage to live a life that is absolutely authentic and true to myself, rather than just what other people have expected of me, those things. I live and breathe. And so for me, if things were to end tomorrow, it's been an [00:52:30] amazing ride and I appreciated every moment of it.

  Jess: That's so rad to be able to say. Okay, I want to segue, but for the sake of time, what is the number one book that you've recommended or 

  given as a gift?

  Kelsey: Oh, I love this question. And it'll always be atomic habits. I feel it's so silly because it's just like, I'm sure so many people say this and maybe they don't. but I love that book. It was really life changing for me, even though intuitive eating, I guess would maybe be a second, but. Atomic Habits, it really is this idea of, [00:53:00] again, shifting your identity and I'm not saying, like, obviously we have our essence, we have our being but our identities can almost be like clothes that we get to try on.

  be able to do that and experiment with that and understanding that it's these small little habits recognizing your progress along the way. If you can take that book, it will change your life.

  Jess: Agreed. That's, I mean, it shifted ways that I coach. It shifts the way that I have conversations with patients in the dental chair. second to last question. How do you take your coffee or tea or 

  morning beverage of choice? 

  Kelsey: Always love a coffee. It's [00:53:30] more the ritual than the caffeine, I promise. I think. but I would definitely, I used to say a flat white when I was living in New Zealand, and then recently I've just discovered cappuccinos, but the British way. So like, when I'm in Britain, or when I'm, when I'm in New Zealand or Australia, they will put cocoa powder on top of the cappuccino, on top of the milk, and so it's just, just extra little, you know, life moment that I absolutely love.

  Jess: Yum. I recently had, and now I'm blanking on where I even was, it was on a trip, I want to say it was a Cuban espresso. So when they [00:54:00] pull the shots, they actually put cinnamon and cardamom in the grind 

  and then 

  pull the shot. 

  Kelsey: got to be so 

  Jess: so

  like you add, if you like black coffee, great, make it an Americano, or you add just a little bit of milk and the flavor profile on it is just

  Kelsey: Oh my gosh. So. 

  A Cuban. 

  Jess: Yes, I want to say it was Cuban, maybe I'm butchering it, but I think that's what it was. But it was a little bit of cinnamon and cardamom in the 

  shot when they pulled it. 

  Kelsey: All right. I'll definitely try that out, especially like in the season. And now I'm in the U. S. for at least a couple more weeks. I'm like pumpkin spice [00:54:30] season. I'm like, let's go 

  Jess: Bring out my 

  basic bitch, let's go!

  Kelsey: it's so true. I'm like, I'll do it.

  Jess: Yeah. Okay, like, actual last question. Where can audiences find 

  you to learn more? 

  Kelsey: so the biggest thing right now I would say is Instagram is where I'm probably the most active. So that's at Kelsey m Webe, W-I-E-B-E. I also have my website, www.kelseywiebe.com. So more than welcome to find me there and we'll have some resources [00:55:00] and, Yeah, probably those two for right now.

  Jess: And then your 

  podcast was 

  Kelsey: Embracing the gray. So, and we'll definitely have you on. 

  Well, I'm so excited for the conversation that we, ah, 

  Jess: Just a little swap now, I get to tell you my story. It'll be good.

  Kelsey: I'm so pumped. 

  Jess: This is good. Okay, friends, thank you so much for listening to another episode of Sturdy Girl Kelsey. Thank you so much for being on, 

  Kelsey: Thank you. 

  Jess: and we will catch you next week, friends.

44. Essentialism and Purposeful Productivity with Life Coach, Melissa Lowe

In this episode, Jess and life coach, Melissa Lowe, delve into the essential strategies and tips for enhancing productivity. We explore various methods to optimize your workflow, manage your time effectively, and achieve your goals efficiently. Whether you're looking to boost your personal or professional productivity, this episode offers practical advice and actionable steps to help you succeed.

Connect with Melissa HERE.
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• Full Transcript

  [00:00:00] 

  Jess: Hello friends and welcome back to another episode of Sturdy Girl. I have another wonderful interview guest for us today. Melissa, hello. Thank you for joining us.

  Melissa: I am so happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

  Jess: I'm glad this worked out. [00:00:15] I would love for you to introduce yourself. Tell me a little bit about what you do, who you are, whatever you'd like to share.

  Melissa: Absolutely. So I am a math geek turned life coach. [00:00:30] And the way I got there was absolutely, I would actually say it's not only not a straight line, it's like a circular cyclone of events that led me here. I did not plan to be a coach. I hadn't a desire to be a coach, but.

  God guided my [00:00:45] steps and some of it was pretty traumatic and, I just really am so thankful to be here. So I started out just like most women, working too hard, doing 60 hour weeks, you know, I hustling, I'm a mom, I'm a [00:01:00] wife and, just got stuck in that cycle. And I got to a point where I was super burnt out and I left my job with no plan, no job, no other job waiting for me either, which hashtag don't recommend.

  But that was like the [00:01:15] beginning of a life change for me. when I was finding myself again, you ended up finding a lump under my arm. It turned out to be breast cancer um, which runs in my family. Cancer does run in my family. And that shifted my [00:01:30] whole world and the way I think about Life in general.

  It was the wake up call that I needed and I Surrendered to God me and him or like we're working on our relationship and I Just tried to be more obedient and I said God if you save [00:01:45] me I'm going to be obedient and that's what I try to get up and do every day now and in that obedience it led me to Sharing and journaling publicly through my breast cancer treatment Which led me to having more conversations with women about slowing down [00:02:00] and, finding ourselves and evaluating life, really questioning like why we're here, what we want to do.

  And one of those women actually was the one who said to me, Hey, you should think about coaching. And I laughed at her face then thought about it. She had planted a seed. And as the days went on, it didn't sound as [00:02:15] ridiculous. And I started to look into it, and here I am, working with women helping them not have to have a wake up call like the one that I did.

  Cause it was severe, and I felt looking back on my life, there were times that God [00:02:30] was trying to speak to me in whispers, and in His normal voice, and I still wasn't listening. So He decided, okay, you're gonna need to shout? I can, I can shout. So I just don't want women to have to, you know, completely have to upend their lives to start making those [00:02:45] changes that help them live a fulfilled and like enjoyable life.

  Jess: that's a lot. I mean, I just think about Even for myself and being busy and the things that are going on in my world, I really try to pay attention to that, I'm not going to call it balance, right, because do we really have balance, but the importance of [00:03:00] slowing down. The importance of taking time for ourselves and making sure that our cup is filled, because that burnout piece comes from just continually trying to pour from an empty cup.

  And going and going and going. And the fact that, yeah, when you're like, okay, God had to [00:03:15] like, shout at me.

  Because there are, there's those nudges, there's those little things that come up, and you're like, oh, it's fine, I'm just gonna do this other thing. Nah, yeah, I'm just gonna do this. Well, I'm working to support the family, and I'm working to do these things, and this is gonna further my career, and all of a sudden it's oh, [00:03:30] actually, your health is more important than your career.

  Melissa: You don't even like the job you're in. You're chasing after a title because you want to look good to other people, right? It's like, those things that we're not really questioning, we're on this track and we're so focused on something, but we never stop to question, [00:03:45] Hey, is that the right thing for me?

  Is that actually aligned with my values? That's why we need this space to think, you know, about what it is that we're actually doing with our time and our lives. 

  Jess: you were more in like the corporate world, right? okay. And to be able to have that shift now [00:04:00] and to work life coaching is just amazing. You're able to help people work through things that you did Without having it go to those extremes, right?

  Melissa: yeah, absolutely. And it's funny because I'm still technically in the corporate world. So I still have a day job, but the kind of conversations that I [00:04:15] was able to have with my boss, even taking the job, I was like, I don't think I actually want to work for anyone again. This is in the interview. These are things I would never say in an interview, but because I had done so much work on myself and I was really clear about what I wanted in life [00:04:30] and what I didn't want.

  I was in that interview like, no, I don't think, I don't think this is actually going to be a good idea. Like I've done this before. I don't really want to find myself back here again. And he asked me like, well, what do you want? Like, What would be good for you? I was able to clearly say, I want to be able to spend [00:04:45] time with my family.

  I want flexibility at work, right? Like I was able to have a real honest conversation with somebody that I would have been too afraid to have a conversation with in the past. And now I have a job that is. super flexible, something I never thought I would be able to have. And he [00:05:00] knows about my coaching, help me with my certification and allows me to make time for coaching.

  So we never know what's possible unless we have those kinds of conversations.

  Jess: I'm just envisioning being in that interview and like, past you, or a [00:05:15] lot of us, if you were to say, so, actually, I don't think I want this job these are the things that are important to me right now, and the things that you're saying are important to you are are not the job, are not the things that you would be doing for work, and you're not saying, I am willing to give my life, blood, and soul to this job.

  You're saying, [00:05:30] no, this serves a purpose. And my main purpose is my family and my coaching and that purpose and most jobs, most employers, they want to hear that you want that job. So I just, this shift that you went through where you were comfortable enough in yourself and [00:05:45] your needs and your priorities to be able to put that first. That's huge.

  Melissa: Yeah. I mean, looking back on it, I think a lot of people would think it's not. But I think there's something to be said about in that interview, and I talked to my boss about this all the time, I could tell that you had integrity, [00:06:00] that, you know, you were committed so he wasn't looking at technically the fact that I wasn't all about the role that he putting out there.

  It was more like, well, what kind of person am I hiring? And he looked more at my values. And I still do, I [00:06:15] do really great work for the organization because that's just the kind of person I am. But I think it's one of those things where I would love to change even how we interview people and what we look for like, we do that when we're hiring when I'm interviewing people for the roles that are coming into [00:06:30] our, I'm thinking more about, like, how are you going to fit in with the team?

  What kind of person do you have? What are your values? You know, not necessarily only what you can do. Because we've seen that we've seen like people who are very capable people, but don't have integrity, how that story ends. So I [00:06:45] think that says something about the organization, if they're willing to listen to you and see who you are and say, you know what, I like this.

  I like that she's honest and committed and, you know, forthright. And we could do something with that.

  Jess: here are your values and your [00:07:00] character coming through. Yeah, side tangent going here, but the interview process and talking about how you ask questions I just think about how much the job force has shifted since the pandemic. We were at a restaurant last weekend and they were talking about how much the [00:07:15] employees and behaviors and things have shifted. So you're seeing it across multiple industries, not just my own, is There is a value that employees are placing on their own lives over the job, for better, for worse.

  I mean, you have people that call out with no notice [00:07:30] or those kinds of things, but it's also the people who are realizing like, Work's not everything, the shift that's coming with that, so I was just thinking of that trickling down from being at the job to that interview process, is we have to change the way we interview.

  It's not the, okay, tell me about a challenge you faced and how you [00:07:45] overcame it, okay tell me where you see yourself in five to ten years, okay, tell me all your qualifications for this job, There are other questions to be asked now. Yeah.

  Melissa: And when I interview people, all the people who work with me. Um, That I have [00:08:00] brought on. I know so much more about their lives, I know so much more about their dreams, and it's not about us hoarding them forever. It's how can we make this mutually beneficial and fun? I want you to enjoy working here.

  I want [00:08:15] to get to know you as a person and help you grow. that's what work should be, right? Developing each other instead of, Oh, well, you have to make X dollars because a lot of that stuff isn't even in our control, right? If you can get the most out of someone because you [00:08:30] respect them, you give them flexibility, you allow them to be themselves and be honest, right?

  Like There's something to be said about allowing people to just be themselves. I think that you're going to get so much better quality work out of that person and a different level of [00:08:45] commitment. Then you know the person who looks good on paper, but doesn't have the values that you're looking for.

  Jess: Well, I just think too, when the employer actually cares. So when you're like, yeah, I come out of this interview process and we hire someone and I know this person and their lives and their values, that [00:09:00] shows that you care. And that's not something that a lot of employers I think are used to having to do, or like, depending on the organization where it's like, okay, do you fit the qualifications for the job and our schedules align?

  Okay, cool.

  Whereas having that one step further, mean, I can speak to that [00:09:15] in dentistry. I've worked for doctors where maybe the practice was decent, but when they don't care about anyone that they work with and the dollar is the bottom line to them, 

  people don't last long and they don't value their work.

  \

  Melissa: You feel it. You can't fake it. You can't fake it So you're going to give what you [00:09:30] receive or, you know, the environment is set and you show up to match that. So we need to create more nurturing, caring, energizing, inspirational environments for people to be themselves and then check them when they're not.

  I think it's more simple than it is, but there, I know [00:09:45] there's nuance to it.

  Jess: For sure. So do you, with your life coaching stuff, do you do any kind of career coaching? I feel like we just went on this like career discussion funnel and I'm like, wait, that's not necessarily you work with moms, right? That's kind of your, your focus. So [00:10:00] talk to me about what kind of moms come to you.

  what kind of things are they struggling with that you help with? Where's your zone of genius?

  Melissa: oh my goodness that term. Oh, man. I think for me I'm a problem solver And I really [00:10:15] love brainstorming. So the kinds of moms who come to me are the ones who are overwhelmed I don't have time for anything else. Like I'm done. I want to let go of everything because I feel like I'm not doing anything well and I need some help.

  And as much as they are [00:10:30] actually doing the one thing they're consistently not doing is taking care of themselves. So it could be as we think of self care as like. massages and nail appointments but they're not making like doctor's appointments, you know, like like Taking care of their health.

  They're not eating [00:10:45] lunch these are like the basic things that a lot of us are not doing because We're just focused so much on other people. So I like to take a lot of the tools that I've learned in the business industry. I am a data analyst, so I love analyzing things. [00:11:00] I love like coming up with solutions.

  And I also am a certified project management professional. So scheduling is something that I understand and have done a lot of. So I bring those tools to like our personal lives. I'm like, listen, this has worked. in corporate America for decades, [00:11:15] you know, so let's bring this level of professionalism and strategy to our home lives.

  that's really what I do. And, the intention is to create more intentional living in the home starting with the [00:11:30] mom, because I do feel like If you can get the mom to be more peaceful, to, you know, slow down and love herself a bit more, then the whole home, the entire family will be stronger for it.

  Jess: Yeah, absolutely. I think it was in [00:11:45] your initial application, you talked about purposeful productivity as being a big piece of this, and I, this ties in really nicely actually, I'll just have you tell me about purposeful productivity, because I'm like, I have thoughts, but I want to hear it from you

  Melissa: so we are all busy [00:12:00] and we're busy doing lots of things, but you know, as we talked about essentialism, 

  Jess: Oh, yes, let's get to that for sure. 

  Melissa: no, this is a great segue though, because one of the things is. What's stuck with me is that all effort is not created equal. And if we think about [00:12:15] that, it really is like an epidemic, right? Like we're putting out so much energy and we're doing all of these things, but it may not be producing fruit.

  So many of us go to sleep at night thinking, I didn't do enough today or I didn't get anything on my to do list on, you know? And [00:12:30] it's like, how is that happening day after day after day? And it's because we're exhibiting effort. We're putting a lot of effort towards activities, towards busyness, but those might not be the quality activities, the activities that really move the needle, the things that really align with your values, that really [00:12:45] matter to you and your family.

  And So we're choosing these like non essential activities throughout our day and we're getting non essential output, So, yeah, I think that's kind of like what purposeful productivity is being [00:13:00] intentional about how you spend your time and making sure it's alignment with your values. And, it sounds easy, but it's not because it's a continuous thing.

  it's not a one time thing and, and it requires reflection. It requires space. It [00:13:15] requires all the things we don't want to do and that we're being trained to not do because of like social media and, you know, things that steal our attention and make us Want those like hits of dopamine all the time?

  Slowing down just seems like the last [00:13:30] thing we want to do and we've tricked ourselves into thinking like it's going to make me Less efficient where it really is like a guiding principle for everything that you need to do And really be productive in the life that you want

  Jess: It's slow down to speed [00:13:45] up in some ways. this is where my brain is going with some of this. And when you initially started telling your story earlier my preface is I'm not necessarily religious. I was raised religious and so, the utmost respect for your relationship with God and all of that, like there's, I [00:14:00] have been down a rabbit hole of Buddhism recently.

  so, Buddhism weirdly is connected to a lot of body image research. So that's kind of how my like rabbit hole started with it. But one of the pieces of that is like mindfulness and meditation, which for for some people is [00:14:15] prayer or just any way you want to look at it. It ends up coming down to being able to slow down long enough to sit with your thoughts.

  To sit with yourself and let the rest of the noise of the world fade away. To recognize, how am I [00:14:30] doing? How am I feeling? Okay, can I take a big deep breath because somehow I've been breathing so shallow all day long. And Wow, I am really stressed about about that conversation I had this morning and This thing happened and wow and you start to feel those things finally come up because you've [00:14:45] slowed down long enough to say like What do I need?

  I'm not really sure, but I need this space. And so when you're talking about moms and the overwhelm, I, I don't have kids yet, but we have a number of friends who do and, seeing the busyness that comes from that, the [00:15:00] overwhelm, all of the, the different moving parts there. That ability to just have a few quiet moments is legit self care.

  Like I think of it in that way where you're like, it's not massages, it's making sure that you schedule your own doctor's appointments and dental appointments. it's [00:15:15] taking the time to have five minutes to say, okay, big, deep breath. I got up with enough time for quiet time for myself, or maybe it's the end of the day, right?

  Like you're able to create that space. And so that's what I keep thinking about in this. I'm like, This makes a lot of sense.

  that [00:15:30] reflection piece of productivity is, let me tie this back with productivity and like the space to think or be alone with our thoughts, which is.

  terrifying for a lot of people is then it allows you to, I don't know if I want the word reflect or get clear on, well, what's [00:15:45] actually important. Like you said, being able to pull it back to your values, because I'll tell you for me, I work full time. I coach and I have this podcast. I love all the things that I do in my world, but I have to be very purposeful on what is most important to me.

  [00:16:00] Where can I move things around so that this makes more sense? Okay. I have to take a day every single week that does not have this productivity attached to it, but I only can get clear on that when I slow down enough. And instead of being like, Oh, this thing, Oh, this thing, Oh, [00:16:15] jump all over here. And okay.

  All these 27 emails and messages from clients. And, and, and, and, and you're like, okay. Slow down, step back. what do I have to get done right now? What can wait? Are you going to bed on time?

  Melissa: Yes. Are you getting enough sleep? that's a whole other [00:16:30] thing. But the other tricky thing about productivity Is that for a lot of women and moms, we tie our worth to our productivity, and that's where it gets dangerous.

  if we're not doing this, then we're [00:16:45] not doing well, we're not successful, we're not good enough.

  And then It's the antithesis to rest, right? That's why we don't want to go to bed on time. That's why we don't want to take a vacation days off, like actually take them off because we're going to fall [00:17:00] behind and then, you know, we're not going to be seen as worthy and doing a great job in the eyes of our family or, or, corporations.

  So we need to like. Detach ourselves from the things that we do. It's you do these things, but you are this person who is worthy of love, [00:17:15] who's worthy of rest, who's worthy of attention. And we need to like, we need space in order to like, separate our actions from who we are.

  Jess: Absolutely. and I think even when you learn those skills and I'm sure you've probably seen this in your coaching, you still have to combat [00:17:30] that attachment to productivity forever and always.

  Melissa: Yes.

  Jess: It is wild to me I'm like, man, I've done so much work on this. Like I feel really good. I know that I'm a good human, like reassuring.

  And then there are days that come up and I'm like, I only crossed one thing off my to do list. Like I can't go to [00:17:45] bed yet. This is, Oh, I feel so guilty. And then you stop yourself and you're like, what? how did we get right back here? 

  Melissa: Yep.

  Jess: have you ever read um, weeks.

  Melissa: I haven't yet. It's on my list. 

  Jess: that's one of those when you talk about like productivity, the to do list, the dopamine hit. the [00:18:00] premise of this book more or less is like we, on average, have 4, 000 weeks to live.

  Realistically, the to do list is never, ever empty. So why waste so much energy on stressing about finishing the to do list?

  You know, what are you doing with those remaining [00:18:15] weeks of your life? it's really good. I really enjoyed it. Along the same lines of like, essentialism and how much there were small things that were so applicable to be like, Okay, this is what I'm remembering from this book. Okay.

  Melissa: Now, it reminds me of an [00:18:30] article I read about Bronnie Ware. She wrote, Five Regrets of the Dying, She was a home health nurse, or she was a nurse at a facility where people go in their last days and she would have conversations with them and she just started to notice patterns [00:18:45] and you know, the top regret of the dying is that they didn't get to be who they really wanted to be.

  It just wasted so much time living for other people and it just comes back to not reflecting, right? You can be so [00:19:00] focused on going down a certain path and thinking this is the right thing to do. And, and for all really good reasons, like I love my family, I want them to be comfortable. So that means I have to work hard and I have to get this promotion and, you know, all of those things.

  But at the end of the day, it's what's really [00:19:15] truly going to make you happy. What's your definition of success and redefining that. And I think redefining it for motherhood too. When you talked earlier about, you know, moms. Being like so sacrificial. We get praised for that though, you know, so that's why [00:19:30] it's like a cat 22 It's wait a minute when I tell people i'm tired.

  They're like, yes I know you work so hard girl you know, and it's like you get all the empathy you get all the But that's what moms are expected to do So, if you are resting too much, if they see too many pictures of you [00:19:45] getting massages, or, you know, going on trips to relax yourself, they're gonna be like, hmm, she's not with her family as much as she should be, What's going on there? And we start judging each other, as opposed to nudging each other in the direction of, You need to get rest. You need to be well. So [00:20:00] it's a, you should check out the, at least the article first, and then you could always read the book, but it's exactly what I went through with breast cancer.

  It's like you think you're going to die and life gets crystal clear, crystal clear job. Doesn't matter title. I was working my [00:20:15] tail off for doesn't actually matter. What matters is my family, the people who I love. Very few were actually going to miss me. when you go through treatment, you realize that yes, there are people, other people who love you and care about you, but they're not even necessarily even calling you every day, There are people who are [00:20:30] crying every day because you are not well, and you need to be very clear about, okay, if I only had like, you say, those. 4,000 weeks, which we do. What do I really want my life to be like? How can I really live a full life? And that [00:20:45] may not actually look like the life that you're living.

  And that's what happened to me. And it can feel morbid at times, but I'm very thankful for the perspective that I have now of my God. We have such, such a limited amount of time, let's try to live it to the [00:21:00] fullest. 

  Jess: think that's fantastic and it makes me think too. 

  The limited time that we have on earth like One other piece of Buddhism that I was been reading about recently that has really stuck with me, and I actually, there's a book called The Comfort Crisis that my poor listeners have [00:21:15] heard me just go on about in so many episodes, but there is a portion of the book that they talk about How this certain section of Buddhism and I think Buddhism as a whole does as well, but they make it a point to contemplate death. So no matter if you believe in life [00:21:30] after death or reincarnation or whatever the heck it is, at some point, this being and body as we know it, Will no longer exist. And so they make it a point to contemplate that because then you don't fear death And we don't live our lives thinking that we are immortal that we're [00:21:45] going to live forever and it makes every moment that much more Not necessarily important but precious and that understanding of well, what really matters?

  What really matters if I know that I'm 34 years into my 80 ish year on average lifespan What the heck am I gonna do with the rest of my [00:22:00] time? That aligns with who I want to be and my values. it's so interesting to me because there is there's a tendency at least I'm gonna say in the United States There are a lot of other cultures that do have Conversations around death and yes, there's so much shying away from death and conversations [00:22:15] around Aging, and all of those pieces, whereas in that Comfort Crisis book, they talk about in the country of Bhutan, they actually celebrate those that die.

  And they celebrate their lives, and they celebrate them moving on to the next thing. And so it's just such an interesting [00:22:30] perspective to utilize that in a day to day of Yeah, it's kind of amazing that I'm alive right now, and it's not forever. which, okay, this one other little side tangent, and then I do want to talk about essentialism.

   When I like saying like our values and what we want out of life, how [00:22:45] often with your coaching clients, do you start talking about what do you want out of life or what kind of person do you want to be?

  Or what values do you have and have your client give you like such a blank look? I have no idea. No one's asked me that. It's such [00:23:00] a, Common thing for conversations. I have our conversations, especially because I have a couple of podcast episodes on defining your core values or one of them on working on body image where it's, Hey, you have to get clear on what kind of person you want to be

  so that we can look at what [00:23:15] qualities do they display?

  What kind of life do you want to live? Otherwise you're just responding to external stimuli to adjust yourself on who you like, how you're acting and how you're responding. And that piece for people because they're like, How do I even begin to think about that? Who do I, who do I want to be? What do I [00:23:30] value?

  Melissa: it's interesting that you ask because as I was working with moms, I realized that there were a lot of questions and myself as well. I have a daughter, she's eight now, but she would ask me questions about me and I would not know the [00:23:45] answer. And as I worked with more moms, I started realizing, oh, this is not just a me thing.

  I could answer any question about my husband, my son, my daughter, even my mom, and I struggle. She was like, what's your favorite color? I could not tell you what my favorite [00:24:00] color was. it was so sad. And I know that we're talking about values, but there's like basic things that we don't know about ourselves anymore.

  Especially after we become moms. It's like, None of that matters anymore. I no longer am a person. I'm a mother and [00:24:15] therefore my whole job, my whole existence is to worry and take care and encourage other people. And that's one part of your job, but you still get to be a person. So as our first conversation, when I start working with someone is when we talk about.

  What's important to them? Like, [00:24:30] why did you come to me? Because there's a reason that you even click that, call button to sit down with a coach, right? And there's so many moments, and I love these moments when you hear someone kind of start to verbalize that and they say [00:24:45] themselves. I've never even said that out loud before.

  And it's so powerful. it's like one of my favorite things. Because we don't have enough safe spaces to even say what we want to not be perfect, to not have it all together [00:25:00] and not have it all figured out. And I think that value piece is like more than just a one time thing. It is a digging that is going to have to happen over time.

  But I love having those conversations very early on, if not the first conversation, the second. And we're talking about, [00:25:15] like, it's not just what you want to do with your life, it's who do you want to be? Why do you think you're here? what kind of legacy do you want to live for your kids that's not financial?

  and that's a good way to think about it too, is usually all the things we want for our kids are all the things that we're probably not doing and really want for [00:25:30] ourselves. So those things that we're telling our kids constantly, that's why I think we grow the most as parents, is because you're technically being a hypocrite every day.

  You're like, you know you're supposed to take out your clothes at night, and I didn't take my clothes out at night. You know you're supposed to make your [00:25:45] bed in the morning, and my bed is not made. You know, so it's like constantly tugging at you like, I don't want to be a hypocrite. And when they get older, kids are like, They start calling you out like, Mom, your, your bed's not made either, you know? So I think it's really important for us to talk [00:26:00] about those values and, just allow ourselves to grow in that way. But in coaching, if you're not talking about values, like first, second conversation, then, you know, I would say find a different coach.

  Jess: It's so important and like you said it's a digging it's a freaking [00:26:15] excavation especially as a mom. If you don't even know who you are, what you're, because you have put your kid or your kids first, your family first, because that's what we've been taught that we're supposed to do. And you lose this sense of identity.

  And so, like you said, when you're like, I don't even know what [00:26:30] my favorite color is,

  or when you're like reactionary like, no, I just grabbed these clothes. Cause I know the stretchy waistband, like fits. I don't know what I, I don't know what kind of clothes I actually like to wear. I have no idea. binding those things to find.

  yourself and who you like, because I think about [00:26:45] examples of people that I looked up to growing up. And they were people who had a strong sense of self or strong sense of what they were interested in and those pursuits to tell me like, Oh, I want to have my own interests too. Okay. [00:27:00] And, and seeing that, so those examples, because our kids are like sponges.

  And so they're going to see how you are taking care of or not taking care of yourself.

  Melissa: Yes. And that's the example you want to lead, which is why I created a journal. again, I didn't set out to create a [00:27:15] journal, but it's something that I realized, man, moms don't have a space to just be themselves, to have kind of a directory of who they are. And my journal is all based on lists, like list building.

  it's a top 10 list for each category. And there's 30 different [00:27:30] categories that don't have to be done every day, because I have. I hate when someone tells me like, you have to journal every single day. You don't have to. Okay? Like. you know, you do want to find journaling, almost like dating.

  You want to date some different journaling types and see what [00:27:45] works for you. But yeah, I designed a journal to help moms love themselves, get to know themselves a bit more, and have fun in the process, because we're all familiar with writing gross grocery lists and to do lists and, you know, different packing lists.

  So I was like, okay, lists? Moms know lists. [00:28:00] So we could, get down with that. So that's, that's why I did that. Cause I, I just realized like, you know what, and we need like a super easy entree into journaling and creating that space that doesn't feel overwhelming or like another job for moms.

  Jess: Absolutely. That's so cool that [00:28:15] you created that as a resource because I've journaled since third grade. my 

  first journals were black paper with gel pens, like glitter gel pens, I know, it was like all the craze and just have kept journaling, and so I'm one of those people that have never [00:28:30] needed journal prompts, because my journal time is just word vomit,

  process.

  And then reorganize what I've just word vomited to be like, okay, this is how I'm doing. okay, we've, we flushed this out a little bit, kind of like that, like mindfulness piece of slowing down to figure out what's going on in our [00:28:45] brains. But knowing a lot of people who haven't journaled and starting that process, where the heck do you start?

  Like I've thrown out we did a mini episode a couple of seasons ago on like journal prompts that work really well, or more or less the prompts that I do with myself without thinking about it. So I [00:29:00] love that because that gives just, I'm laughing over it being lists because it is so true. We are all so familiar and comfortable with lists.

  So what a great way to just segue right into that, to make it work for people.

  Melissa: Yeah, thank you. Again, I'm very big on like setting [00:29:15] the bar low so people can like over it, you know, and it doesn't like overwhelm you because we are, we have enough of that going on. 

  Jess: and then when you, you create that win, and then it's easier to do it again and do it again. And suddenly you're like, Oh, this journal thing. [00:29:30] Yeah, I got this.

  And you have this certain level of. Self advocacy and self trust and building that relationship with self. I love that.

  Melissa: journaling really changed my world, but the way I started was unconventional too. Oh, we should keep this going because if [00:29:45] I, I have good energy around it, I'm more likely to do it and build a habit of doing it. and that's, that's the point is to, I think, be more creative about the way we solve our problems and not think that we have to do them a certain way or like anyone else is doing it.

  Jess: Yeah, absolutely. You said [00:30:00] unconventional way to start journaling. How was that?

  Melissa: Well, I started journaling publicly when I was doing chemo. I was journaling publicly on Instagram and, I didn't realize that I wouldn't have called it journaling at the time. I just thought, I was like, I'm just gonna share. I'm just gonna [00:30:15] share what's going on because I was looking for, I was trying to get myself prepared for chemo and I didn't see anyone who looked like me really being honest about what it was like.

  I was like, you know, if I'm going to go through this, I'm just going to put it out there. I was sharing a lot more than just like, here's what's [00:30:30] happening. It was a lot of like, here's how I'm feeling about what's happening. And that's what really got me into journaling.

  Jess: it gives you a sense of you're sharing to let other people know, especially maybe people who are going through similar things, that they're not alone. [00:30:45] that's such a big deal to put that out there. And so vulnerable for you to, to share that through that process. But I'm sure people appreciate it because I I've seen a number of people go through cancer and you just see the posts about being a warrior and being strong [00:31:00] and like, we're pushing through and I've got all this family support and not the days when they're like, I cried myself to sleep last night because I'm so overwhelmed.

  Melissa: we need to show more than just one side. We need to show more than just, I've reached the top of the mountain. I really am in favor of [00:31:15] showing the struggle, not just showing the struggle, but having really deep conversations about the struggle. So every so often I will have like mom groups, working moms come together and we just share honestly about what's going on.

  What's going on with us. And it's not about Melissa being the coach. [00:31:30] I'm there sharing, honestly, too. And I'm encouraging other women to, if you're great at your relationship stuff, Hey, tell us what you're doing, so it's really us supporting each other. And I just want to facilitate more of that, but it does start with a safe space, [00:31:45] right?

  Where people feel like they can generally share.

  Jess: that's awesome to have those support groups because I just keep thinking of the phrase, it takes a village, especially in parenthood. And it just, it's so important to have. That village for help and support and then also like I think of this on the other side [00:32:00] where again I don't have kids, but I was with a few of the moms last weekend And one of them was like I was like complaining about their partner and I don't want to say Oh, they were whining about them or anything, but in such a way that For me, and then we started the conversation, it made me feel a lot less alone.

  there [00:32:15] aren't a lot of conversations around how hard it is to sustain a marriage long term. And keep it healthy while trying to keep yourself healthy and take care of you and take care of each other and all of that. And so it was, it was a sharing of a struggle in a way that I was like, Thank you. [00:32:30] Because I've been going round and round with my husband recently in a way that was like, is this okay? Am I failing? Is this? And I'm like, no. Okay. So and then it created this safe space for us to have a conversation of like Hey, you're not alone. And here are things like some of the other women have been married [00:32:45] a lot longer than my husband and I have.

  And they're like, here, this is what's worked for us in times like this. Maybe try these things. And you're like, oh, okay. And it helps you to start getting the wheels turning and know like, no, your marriage isn't failing.

  You're just two people with different communication styles, right.

  And learning to [00:33:00] work together. 

  Melissa: you can't get that advice without being honest. Right. And I think so many of us are suffering in silence because we don't know how to share. We don't know if we should share. We don't know if it's safe enough to share [00:33:15] and so we have the term self care, And I think that there is a lot of value in that term, but I also would love us to talk more about community care, which is what you're talking about. The village moms need that too. They need communities. So one of the [00:33:30] things that I work with my clients on is helping to build a community. Not everyone lives in a place where they have family.

  I need you to start going to a mom group, making friends, saying hi to women in the grocery store, you know, like being open to [00:33:45] creating that community because you need You do need it, and I think you need it, in order to have that type of support that you're talking about. I mean, it's not just child care, it's just such a big part of the conversation that we don't talk about [00:34:00] enough.

  yes, moms always have to be there, always have to be on. how, how pray tell is she gonna have that time to go and do some of the things that she needs to do? It's not practical. also with work, right? We need to talk about how corporate America supports working moms, [00:34:15] you know?

  So, self care is great, and I love self care. I think it's needed, you can't talk about it in a box. Some of these other things need to happen in order to help that, and I'm very open about that, and I, I promote moms making connection. I mean, I, [00:34:30] even in the journal, when you get the journal and it's packaged, there's a postcard in it, and that postcard, there's two cards.

  There's an affirmation card in there that is each one of the 30 titles, but they read as affirmations. It's just a reminder for you of the things that you [00:34:45] should be focusing on and I don't ever want you to forget so you lose yourself again. But then there's another postcard in there and it's for you to write a note and mail to a friend or mail to someone that maybe you haven't connected with in a long time.

  Because it's not, self care isn't just about you at [00:35:00] home, journaling by yourself, staying by yourself, internally. It's also about making connection. That is a way that you nurture yourself as well.

  Jess: that's so cool, to show that importance of, I think that's a misconception with self care sometimes, is the journaling solo and time by [00:35:15] yourself and that can make people feel like, oh, this self care is selfish, but it's saying, how do I take care of me, and how important that community is, the friendships, the connections, because we're not meant to be alone, we're not meant to do life alone, And knowing you have that support, [00:35:30] yeah, most of my close friends do not live in Portland with me.

  And so, it's those connection points. I love to send voice memos to my friends. I was walking the dogs last night. After a workout. So it's later in the evening and my friends are like, we call them private podcasts you got a [00:35:45] voice memo from me for like 10pm last night, but you know, listen to it whenever you want 

  Melissa: And it's like 

  13 minutes long.

  Jess: Oh, 100%.

  Yeah. And who knows? I mean, we talked about side tangents. I mean, I'm sure it just looks like a long meandering path of conversation. But then they catch up and they know Here's what's going on in my world, [00:36:00] friend. Thinking of you. Respond when you have time. And then it's like a week later and I get their response and it's great because we joke we take notes when we listen to the, these voice 

  memos. I mean, but that's the reality of being busy humans and not being able to necessarily connect And we used to try and get on [00:36:15] FaceTime dates regularly, which it's great to see someone's face and do it. But sometimes there are seasons of life that you're just like, all right, you get private podcasts.

  Melissa: But that's you being creative. And I think you've seen the beauty and the value of thinking outside the [00:36:30] box and saying to myself, okay, well, what's the point? The point is for me to stay connected with my friends. It's not to always do it a certain way. And I love doing that with, and for my clients like, come on, like, how can we have fun with this?

  and you look forward to that. I could just [00:36:45] hear the joy in you thinking about those. Podcast that you have with your friends. It's like that's what we need to do more of we need more creativity.

  Jess: Yeah, exactly. Okay. Can we come off our tangents and go back to essentialism because we touched on a little bit when we were talking about purposeful [00:37:00] productivity, but that essentialism piece, because I have read that book probably three times. It is a book that I send to my one on one clients when we first start working together.

  because people will come to me and I coach on endurance, on strength, lifestyle things, [00:37:15] nutrition we have all of these different pieces. And so when someone's like, you know, I want to run and lift and let's work on nutrition, let's do all these things. I'm like, okay, okay, good. We start in one place.

  And then we work up from there. So here's the book that's going to help you understand that

  Melissa: Yeah. I love that you send that as a [00:37:30] foundation to how you coach. I might steal that joe. I like that a lot

  Jess: do it.

  Melissa: Yeah, so I I don't even remember how I found that but I probably was listening to another podcast And I was so surprised after reading the book that like that. He's not more well known because I thought it was [00:37:45] just a life changing, but I told my husband was like, I think I need to read this book every single year because you make changes in your life again.

  You fall down and then you come back to the book and you're like, oh, okay. Yes, I need to refresh on these things. I think you use the word earlier pursuit. [00:38:00] Right. And I love that. He defines essentialism as the pursuit, the discipline pursuit of last rate. And that pursuit is like you are chasing after that and I love that the it's more active Because it is it is a choice.

  It [00:38:15] is a decision that you have to make To figure out what are you going to work on and what you're not going to devote your time to and it's not easy, right? So it is absolutely worth it so what would you like to talk about in terms of essentially because i'm like [00:38:30] there's so much there 

  Jess: Yeah. Maybe just an easy conversation on like where people might start with essentialism. Cause you, so you've defined it where we talked about it's being essentialist, like the discipline pursuit of less, but what does that mean? And what does that [00:38:45] look like? if you had someone where you're like, let's start talking about this practice of essentialism.

  Melissa: that's a good question, I think that

  You'd have to start with creating space. I think which is what we were talking about today So I guess we were talking about [00:39:00] essentialism

  Jess: And that's kind of what I was like, we're coming back to it, but I'm going to call it essentialism and we'll just like be specific now.

  Melissa: Yeah, I mean in the coaching world. We have the wheel of life, And it's a wheel and it's kind of split into these little pie wedges or pizza pie [00:39:15] Wedges and each wedge is a different category of your life And I think it's a really good starting point because you score each slice of life with a number between zero to 10.

  And I think it gives a really good picture of where you are and where in [00:39:30] your life needs some attention. but in order to do something like that, you do need to reflect and to slow down enough to really think about, Oh, well, how am I doing in my marriage? How am I doing my spirituality?

  how am I doing in my health and be honest about [00:39:45] that? So I would say starting with the space and an activity where you kind of just like level set. All right. how am I feeling and how am I doing today? And maybe put a visual to that, I think could be really helpful. And then I like to give people quick wins.

  So [00:40:00] whenever mom starts working with me I like her to start accomplishing something and showing her how she can do that. Now, it's not in the book specifically, but I'm a big fan of time blocking because I think it is a visual representation of like how much time we [00:40:15] actually have versus all the things we want to do and all the things we think are important and it I think it's a good activity that kind of shows you what essentialism is in practice. Yes, I have a to do list of 100 things. But I have eight hours [00:40:30] available and five hours of those are meetings already and one hour of those I have to make dinner So I really only have two hours to do That list of a hundred things and i'm expecting myself to do today if we were to assign that time And [00:40:45] look through your list and truly say okay Well the way I like to ask my clients this it may be a little unconventional, but I say What on this list if you were to do it and help you feel lighter and I think that's a little bit more tangible way as opposed to asking people when I ask people like [00:41:00] well, what what's your priority?

  there's a little bit of a detachment with that word, right? And it's like priority for who you know, depending on who you think needs something from you right now But I ask like what would make you feel lighter what would just ease your shoulders and ease your [00:41:15] tension You answer comes a lot easier and then putting those on a calendar and asking yourself questions like, how long is that going to take?

  Like those things I think is really like a form of practicing essentialism, which is what are the essential items, the things that are [00:41:30] going to, Give me movement and progress in the areas of my life that truly matter versus I'm looking at everything on this list saying everything is equal. It's not and Then also understanding that I am probably going to have [00:41:45] to remove a lot of these non essential items too, and being okay and doing the work to start to release some of that or delegate some of that to somebody else. And you know, back to the 4, 000 weeks, like we have X amount of time. What are you going to do with that time to really fuel [00:42:00] you and also help you feel more fulfilled?

  Jess: I love that. the essentialism part of that is just finding out what's most important to you. So we were going back to taking the time to understand, well, what do I want out of life? What is actually important? What are my [00:42:15] values? It's been a hot second since I've read essentialism. So this is just me ad libbing a little bit, but I mean, it really comes down to that.

  Cause I, I think about, I think it's on the cover of essentialism, the little circles With the arrows coming off them of okay, if I had this circle and this circle is the effort [00:42:30] I have to give on any given day, if I put my energy towards one thing, that arrow is really long. But if I divide the length of that arrow into 10 different sections for the 10 things I'm trying to make progress on, my progress is going to be a lot [00:42:45] slower.

  and I think of that so often. So the first time I read Essentialism, it was pre pandemic, and I was an ambassador for six different brands. So like, social media posts a couple times a month, talking about them on Instagram stories, and doing all these things, and it was like [00:43:00] a supplement brand and a jewelry brand and a, I don't even remember what else at this point.

  And the first time I read this book, and I was like, What am I doing? This isn't furthering anything I want. I just got caught up in the well, this is what like people on social media are doing. And maybe I could [00:43:15] make a few extra dollars or something like that. And I think I did. I mean, I think I was able to like make some extra income . And then reading that book and realizing like, This isn't worth it. My time is so much better spent elsewhere. And that's really when I started to put more energy [00:43:30] into my coaching because I took away the energy that I had been spending on creating all these social media posts and content and blog posts, 

  all the things onto how do I actually myself and my skills and how can I help people.

  And so I think That's what essentialism is, is [00:43:45] figuring out, well, what the heck is actually important. 

  Melissa: and aligns with you naturally, energy is so important in this conversation. you know, like you said, there are some people who social media that's their thing. they can go out there and they love making the posts and making the reels and all that stuff. Like I [00:44:00] just deleted Instagram, like for the sixth time, last week.

  And I'm like, girl, that is not for you. It doesn't make you feel great. You know, that's not where your time and attention need to be. And I've boiled it down to, anything that has to do with having conversations, deep [00:44:15] conversations with people or writing, that's what I need to be doing. And if it's not that, I'm probably fooling myself.

  And I probably have some imposter syndrome that I need to deal with. And I've probably just seen someone, you know, do something fantastic in my industry, and I'm like, Oh, that, that looks like [00:44:30] that's working. Like, I should try that. And like you say, it's an active you actively have to choose to stick to what works for you.

  And to stay kind of focused as well, because there's all these, because of the internet, we can see what [00:44:45] everybody else is doing. All the time.

  That's so dangerous. It makes it harder and harder for us to just focus on the one thing. And the one thing which is like another book that's like fantastic. if you haven't read that one please do.

  It's so good.

  Jess: What is the book?

  Melissa: The one thing.

  Jess: The One Thing. Okay. 

  Melissa: [00:45:00] You're gonna love it. I feel like there's so many common themes between that and essentialism. I think that maybe Greg McKeown read the one thing at some point. I was like, Oh, these books are like cousins.

  Jess: [00:45:15] checking it out from the library right now. Done. Mm hmm.

  Melissa: love that.

  Jess: if you can't tell, I love to read, so

  that's, here we go. another piece of this is understanding that our things that are essential in our lives may shift over time.

  Very similar to our [00:45:30] values and revisiting how we choose our values.

  Those shift, and so having to come back and like, okay, yeah, well, my number one value was connection for a long time, and we did a lot of connecting. Now my value right [00:45:45] now is family. That's my number one value, right? And being able to understand that doesn't mean that connection isn't important anymore, but you're saying like, if I put this at the forefront, does that guide my actions?

  Okay.

  and make that happen. Side note about values and I think I, I don't remember if I ever talked about [00:46:00] this in the values episode I did, but I like to choose a word for the year and it can be my like number one value. It can also just be something different. And so in years past, like I, I've had one or two words.

  And in 2023, my word for the year was [00:46:15] Growth.

  And in my mind, I was like, personal growth. There's so many things I want to work on. I want to grow my coaching and my podcasts and like growth. And the universe was like, you want to grow?

  And there were so many areas of life where it was like implosion.

  You want a [00:46:30] personal growth 

  here? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And like on so many different levels, I mean, it was like in the work sphere and personal sphere and family and friends and you're like, okay, okay, okay. I gotta rethink how I define this word. And then, this [00:46:45] year, my word for the year was fun.

  Just cause, when you work and you have a business and you have all these things, it's so easy to be serious and the to do lists and the task lists, right? And so to be like, step back, actually, I like being a five year old and playing with my nieces and jumping on the trampoline for hours [00:47:00] and reminding myself of that.

  But the secondary word I had was connection, actually.

  Melissa: Ooh.

  Jess: so the lesson learned is I actually, through a family health issue, I reconnected with. Two siblings that I have not had contact [00:47:15] with in over a decade because of their religion, not my own choice, but theirs in just the craziest way. And I was like, all right.

  when we choose words that we put at the forefront of our mind to guide our actions, like the universe, God, whoever, however you want to think of it. I'm [00:47:30] like, they have their own idea of how they're like coming through with this because this is crazy. 

  Melissa: it's the power of intention, 

  right? What you're doing is giving an intention. So, you know, to be able to put that out there, what we give out is what [00:47:45] we get back, what we attract. And I think that instead of, yes, I am a fan of productivity. I'm a fan of time management. I think I'm a bigger fan of being intentional about who you're being.

  and that kind of energy. I want to show, I want to be a peaceful [00:48:00] mother. Not a mom who gets you to your game on time. those aren't my goals. My goals are, I would like to have a peaceful home. I want to be fun. I want you to get to know all the different sides of me. that's where my focus is.

  And yes, we, in order to do some of that, we do [00:48:15] have to look at a schedule. So there's some practical applications of that, but I love what you said. My word of the 2024 was connect as well. And my friend got me a little bracelet that has like connect on it. And I didn't realize we were going to be moving.

  So we moved from the U S Virgin islands to Texas and I was like, [00:48:30] Oh Lord, how am I going to connect in a place where I don't know anybody like, Oh, you think you're funny, Jesus, I see you. yeah, I understand what you mean in terms of like when you set that intention that the universe really does challenge you.

  I think to be like, okay, are you [00:48:45] serious about this? If you really want this thing, like you're gonna have to put some work behind it, but I love that. And if I look back at my year already, I really have grown in that area because I have been intentional about it. I put effort and energy into it and it is [00:49:00] like a center for me.

  It's something for me to always come back to and just check myself and be like, you're on social media. Is that the kind of connection that you wanted? Did you want, Did you want real connection? Did you want to go meet people in person? You know, do you want to have sessions where you're gathering women [00:49:15] and we're having real conversations, you know?

  So it's a guiding force for me. So I, a hundred percent, and I love that you do, I only started it this year and I was just like, Oh, I don't know if I want to do it again, but it's been so powerful for me to set an intention for the year. And I think [00:49:30] that, it's a really interesting way for us to reflect.

  annually on that, but it's something that we need to be doing weekly at least, like reflecting on our week and saying, did I live the way I wanted to live? And if I didn't, how can I tweak that next week and do a little bit better [00:49:45] in the areas that I can improve them? Yeah.

  Jess: from, actually from my therapist, 

  five years ago, six years ago. It's called Unravel Your Year, and it's Susanna Conway. I believe was the last name. But I think you can just Google Unravel Your Year, and it's free [00:50:00] PDF that comes up. But it's a lot of prompts, kind of, we were talking about that reflection piece, but that was the first time that I ever Thought about picking a word for the year. And so then you have to like write down like all the things you think that word means and how you want to see that play out. And then again, like how many years are we into [00:50:15] this? And every single year that you put that out there, again, it does not come through the way you think it does, but it challenges your growth in so many ways. 

  Melissa: It's so good. I'm looking forward already to um, it's what we're in October now. I'm already like, Oh [00:50:30] my God, I can't wait to pick my new word for January.

  Jess: they're already starting to brainstorm. what do I want? Yeah, 

  absolutely. 

  But that's also part of it is like being a business center. You're already thinking about 2025.

  Melissa: Well, that's true.

  I love the holiday fest. I'm trying to be like super present. This is like my favorite time. I tell everyone I [00:50:45] turn into an elf and I'm like super jolly and like, yeah, a 

  little annoying, but I embrace it.

  Jess: I love that. I'm sure your kids love that too.

  Melissa: They do.

  Jess: That's so good. Okay. Segwaying just to wrap up a little bit, I think we covered a lot of ground, but if you could pick [00:51:00] one thing for our listeners to remember about today's or What would it be?

  Melissa: I think that I would pick

  what we talked about in terms of Having limited time, I don't want to end on a somber note, but I do want to challenge [00:51:15] people to think about, you know, and don't feel guilty about the life that you've lived or think about how much time you've quote unquote wasted. All of it is lessons in learning and you're either really clear about what you want to do, or you're really clear by now about what you don't want to do [00:51:30] anymore.

  You have so much power to change that. And I hope that, you know, this conversation has helped you realize that life can look more inspirational. It can be more fun and it can look more like what you value, what you [00:51:45] truly value if you're willing to do the work. And if you are intentional about it, setting intentions every so often, you can transform your life into something unrecognizable Small changes, small choices [00:52:00] every day, and it's so worth it.

  Jess: just to emphasize this, what a great place to start when you're like, okay, I don't know what I want, I know what I don't want. And sometimes that is a place to start, so that at least you can start crossing things off the list.

  Melissa: Yes, exactly. 

  Jess: [00:52:15] Okay, I have a few fun, shorty wrap up questions

  for you. So first one, pancakes, waffles, or french toast?

  Melissa: French toast. Easy.

  Jess: Love it. Have you ever had stuffed french toast?

  Melissa: I'm a purist.

  I'm a, and I'm a texture person, so I don't like a [00:52:30] lot of like, mushy with hard. Yeah, so it's like, give me the pure French toast. Make sure there's tons of cinnamon in that batter. Yeah. Mm hmm.

  Jess: That's delicious. Okay, what is something that you have been loving lately? So this can be like an activity, a physical thing, something you recently purchased that you're like, oh my [00:52:45] god, how did I ever live without this?

  Melissa: I have actually been loving chat GPT and I know we talked about like not being on like devices and stuff like that, but they just introduced the voice version. So you can just talk to it now and I have been [00:53:00] really enjoying. I'm a math girl. I'm a nerd and I, I really love technology as well.

  So being able to use chat GPT, in a more like fun way. I'm just loving seeing all the advancements they're using. I use it for menu planning, helping me [00:53:15] like come up with questions for my kids. If they don't get homework from school, you're going to get homework at home, you know, so it's like that kind of thing, like really making it more efficient.

  So I have time to do other things, but yeah, I've been loving chat Yes, 

  Jess: not used it very much. I know. [00:53:30] Between that and we were talking about Otter earlier, I need need to get on this.

  Melissa: please. It'll change your life. 

  Jess: let AI help me out a little bit.

  Melissa: Yeah, it's just a little bit.

  Jess: Okay, this might be a giveaway, but what is the number one 

  book that you have recommended or given as a [00:53:45] gift? 

  Melissa: Well, that would be my journal. Because you know, I had breast cancer. I wanted to give a nod to that because that diagnosis changed my life So my self love journal it is a pink suede journal with rose [00:54:00] gold lettering and I wanted it to, when you touch it to feel comforting, right? But more importantly, I wanted that the inside of the journal be just as powerful as the unpacking or unboxing experience.

  [00:54:15] and It's something that I really do think that it will be so much fun for women and it makes a great gift around the holidays and it'll be ready mid November. I'm not selling it right now. I only do it once a year. 

  Jess: Okay, that's awesome. second to last question. 

  do you take your coffee or [00:54:30] tea or morning beverage of choice? 

  Melissa: I love peppermint tea. just a little bit of brown sugar. I'm a Caribbean girl, so we love our brown sugar. Cause, you We have sugar cane there so we have sugar cane factories. some of the bit of a sugar snob. so yeah, [00:54:45] peppermint tea, brown sugar. 

  Jess: I'm just like such a coffee person in the morning, but I also like it today is a. What second day of rain in the last like month? i've got my flannel on and like i'm like, oh man I need to take stock of our tea drawer 

  because yes [00:55:00] I'm, so

  ready for it 

  Melissa: Yeah, there's soups too. Like me, I love soups so like all the different soup Pinterest, come to me. Let's open up that folder again.

  Jess: same absolutely. I know in the summertime. I'm like, I can't do soup. So my husband's like no We're not ready yet. No, we're not [00:55:15] ready It's not time now that it's raining today. That was 

  my first thought I came downstairs and I was like Soup for dinner 

  Melissa: Well, when Panera brings back their, autumn squash soup, like it's on my calendar, the date is releasing them like soup season.

  Jess: It's official. okay. Last question. Where can audiences find [00:55:30] you and learn more?

  Melissa: so I have my website. and that's melissaklowe. com. you can find me there. And, so you don't have to remember anything else. If you click on shop, it'll take you to my Shopify site so you can get the journal. but that's at [00:55:45] TheWealthyMama. Wealthy spelled W E L L. Cause it's all about wellness.

  but TheWealthyMama. com. You can go shop the journal there, and then I have a Facebook page, and that's it right now. we'll see if I keep that going forward, but yes, you can find me on my website for [00:56:00] sure. 

  Jess: That's awesome. 

  did you, or do you have a podcast? I feel like I maybe saw that.

  Melissa: what I did is I wanted to create something that I thought would be super useful. so I have some anonymous coaching sessions with working moms. that I posted there. And I've been so thankful to the women who [00:56:15] agreed to have their coaching sessions recorded. you know, one of the things I know, it's so hard to find a coach.

  There's so many coaches our industry is not necessarily regulated and you don't always know if someone is a good fit So I wanted to put it out there my coaching style and you know really [00:56:30] just kind of like Give people a taste of what coaching was like with me and even if they're not Ready for coaching or they can't afford coaching right now Maybe they can learn lessons from women as they work through their own, Problems or issues.

  So I only have four sessions out there right [00:56:45] now you know, we'll see if I put some more out there, but it'll be a, an intentional decision. 

  Jess: called the wealthy mama, right? That's so cool. Well, 

  thank you so much for this interview. I had such a great time.

  Melissa: too. This is [00:57:00] lovely. Really, really nice to like talk with you. I'm So impressed by what you do and how you do it. There's so much joy in it. 

  Jess: Thank you. it is so much fun. And that's one thing that like with podcasting is It's a labor of love, and I know that podcasts get monetized and [00:57:15] all of that, I just haven't gotten to that well. If we're getting technical, the hosting platform that I use has started putting like, mid roll ads into my episodes and I apparently get 1.

  4 cents per download. So, SturdyGirl has 

  made 47 [00:57:30] cents this month.

  Melissa: God. We need to celebrate

  Jess: So We 

  Melissa: need to celebrate that. 

  Jess: We are technically 

  Melissa: That's what I'm talking about. Tiny ridiculous actions. 

  let's go. 

  Jess: I was like, wait, I can't even say that. I can't say we're not monetized now because technically we've almost made a dollar. 

  Melissa: [00:57:45] Love that for you. Congratulations. 

  Jess: you. All right. Okay, friends. Thank you so much for listening to another episode of Sturdy Girl. We will catch you next week.

43. Replenish and Restore: Self-Care and Body Image with Therapist, Kira Denney

oin Jess and Kira, a licensed therapist and founder of Pearl Wellness, to discuss the importance of body image, self-care, and community engagement. This episode delves into Kira's journey from Florida to D.C., her work with human trafficking victims, and her collaborative practice promoting mental health and eating disorder awareness. The episodes emphasize the significance of body image flexibility, the impact of early influences, and the need for self-awareness. They explore various strategies, such as cognitive behavioral therapy, to manage negative body image thoughts and the intentions behind body modifications. Additionally, the series highlights the role of community events, partnerships with organizations like Dancers Beyond Labels, and practical self-care activities tailored to individual needs. The conversation encourages a mindset of resilience, self-compassion, and the art of 'becoming' rather than seeking perfection.

Connect with Kira HERE.
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• Full Transcript

  Speaker 1: 0:09

  Hello, friend, and welcome to Sturdy Girl, a podcast focused on strength, not size, where you will hear conversations around flexible body image, cultivating confidence and being a resilient human in both body and mind. Sturdy Girl is the podcast where we shift the focus away from your appearance and on to living the big, rad life you deserve. We have another wonderful interview today. I always hesitate. I'm like, how do I explain this guest I have on? Do we say amazing, wonderful, another sturdy human. I'm never going to bring a bad guest onto the podcast. I have Kira here today. She is a therapist, a founder of her own practice, and I really just want her to take it away and tell us all about who she is and what she does.

  Speaker 2: 0:51

  Hello, kira, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited about kind of just the conversation we're going to have wherever that leads today. So, as you mentioned, I am a licensed therapist in Florida, dc, delaware, massachusetts and Maryland, and so I can kind of talk about like why I'm licensed in all those states at some point. But that is what I do by trade. So I see specifically, though, individuals with eating disorders, body image, disordered eating and just like general mental health, and I do that in addition to also working a full-time job. So the private practice is my little baby, but it's like my pandemic baby. Essentially, I get to do it with one of my best friends who's a registered dietitian, so that's actually kind of how we came to be, to build this practice, and so we see people basically just up the East coast for those types of services.

  Speaker 1: 1:37

  That's so awesome, the fact that you have partnered with a dietitian so you have this well-rounded I'm just thinking about when you talk about eating disorders, disordered eating and that piece so you have your wealth of knowledge and then someone who has, like, the clinical and science background with nutrition to just make that. That's amazing.

  Speaker 2: 1:57

  Yeah, and we love it and you know we love when we can share a client. I think that's great. But we also recognize that we're not going to be the best fit for everyone. And so there's definitely multiple times where I'll be seeing someone who sees someone else that's a dietitian and then she'll see someone, and you know they might have an outside therapist. But when we can have those sessions together or those clients together, rather it's beautiful to kind of see that and also just bounce off ideas, because it's hard, as we all know, to get in contact with people. And you know, when you have someone in-house they can be like hey, did you see so-and-so today? Okay, what did they say? And stuff. So it's just like really nice to have that.

  Speaker 1: 2:29

  And when the clients have a team, more or less, it's that collaboration model. I mean, just as nerdy as it is, I was just thinking back to like when I was in dental hygiene school. We worked with the entire college of health professions College of Health Professions, and so they taught us, like what they were trying to build was a collaborative health model of being able to share that information amongst providers, and it still doesn't exist over a decade later. Right, and I'm in dental and that was everyone else's in medical side of things, and they were like, no, that doesn't necessarily exist, but it would be amazing. So a lot of the cases that we shared in school, I was like these people have comprehensive care, so much more so. But, ok, so your business is your little baby, like you called it. I love that. Tell me how it came to be. Is there a story there? Like how did you decide? Like, all right, we're doing this.

  Speaker 2: 3:14

  There's definitely a story there. I'm originally from Florida and my business partner is from the South Lake, mississippi, and we actually only met probably only like at this point, maybe four years ago, but prior to that, I was living in Florida, went to undergrad in Florida, went to grad school in Florida and then I was like I'm sick of Florida, I need to get out of here, and so I ended up going to DC and working with actually human trafficking victims. So that's also another area that I really enjoy working with and advocating for and just like being able to see that experience and helping individuals once they have kind of those basic needs met and that's. I could go on a tangent about that, so I'll stop there. So I worked with human trafficking victims in DC and then, for a very short period of my life, I went out to Indiana and it's a great state, just was not for me. So I moved back to the East Coast I want to say in 2020, right before the pandemic and I got this job at a treatment center that was for eating disorders and in that job I met my business partner.

  Speaker 2: 4:08

  Unfortunately, just due to the pandemic and financials and things like that, that company ended up dissolving. And so we were like, well, that sucks, but eating disorders, body image, general mental health is not going anywhere. People need that support. And while you know we recognize a PHP, iop is a completely different level of care, that support was still needed at an outpatient level for people. And so we were just like, wait, do you want to start a business? Should we start a business? You know, I think about that like Spider-Man meme, where there's, like you know, the three Spider-Mans are like pointing at each other and we're just like, actually, this is, this is what built the practice up. And I remember we were sitting at my kitchen table and we were just like, what should we name it? You know, we had all kinds of logistics down and we had all the okay, we need to you know, get this type of lawyer.

  Speaker 2: 4:52

  We need to get this account and like you know we had all that.

  Speaker 2: 4:54

  We didn't have a name and we were like naming different things, I remember with a name. And then later that week I remember I was like in my bathroom I love pearls, I have actually like a pearl engagement ring, like I just I love pearls. And so I was putting on my ring and I was like pearl I don't know why that just sounds so good Like pearl wellness. We wanted the word wellness in our name and all these things and I said it and I called her. I was like what do you think of Pearl? And she's like Pearl what? And I was like Pearl wellness. And she's like I love it and like you, just like collect, and it was just so beautiful.

  Speaker 2: 5:29

  And then we were thinking later, as we were kind of thinking of a business tagline. Essentially we were like grit and to worth, because a pearl takes so long in the sand to build in that grit. And so when we think about therapy and developing and you know, if you are having struggles with eating disorder, disordered eating, body image, that doesn't just change over a night. It takes this grit from not only you but from your team to turn into something you know, beautiful, whatever that is for you in the ways of like like a pearl, and so that's again how we got to that that name and just like building that up, and it kind of just went from there. We love it so much. We're able to do we offer virtual services, we do groups, we also have our own podcast as well. But one of the things when we build our practices, we want it to be not just direct care but a resource to the community as well, and so that's why we're able to do some of the other things that we've done with it.

  Speaker 1: 6:17

  That community piece is so important. I learned that more and more and I feel like, especially where you said this is your pandemic, baby, the pandemic taught us how important community really is. I love just the process of naming a business, because I changed the name of my coaching business back in 2021. And it was one of those things where I'd had original name because it had started from when I had a photography business a decade ago and that's where it kind of came from.

  Speaker 1: 6:42

  And I had this list on my notes app in my phone and so it was, like you said, where you're like table ring light, like you just like start throwing around nouns and different words and like the list. I saved this list because it was just so ridiculous the things that were on there. But you just you have to figure out like, no, this isn't what I want. Nope, that's not what I want. Okay, this one. And so my coaching is called Everwild Performance. There's a whole like backstory to that. But that process because you're like how am I identifying this and how can people identify with this?

  Speaker 2: 7:11

  I love it. I'll tell the story because we were like you know. I give that background of like an act in the wild, what a pearl does and how it develops, and You're like Ooh, why does this resonate with me?

  Speaker 1: 7:28

  Oh, okay, this is where it's from Exactly.

  Speaker 2: 7:30

  Yeah.

  Speaker 1: 7:30

  I like that. Do you do like community events, or how does that work?

  Speaker 2: 7:34

  Yeah, so we have done that in the past, like we've actually done speaking engagements in our community. We partnered, actually, with an incredible organization called Dancers Beyond Labels, which is these 16 year old 17 year old, you know, high school students that basically made this nonprofit about dancers and eating disorders and body image and you know, kind of bring an awareness to that. And I think back to what I was doing at 16, it was not developing a nonprofit, but they reached out to us once and, oh, can you kind of partner with us and so we'll do talks for them in their school. And so that's been one way that we've been able to be a community resource. We also wrote a workbook, be able to be like a resource as well and that's like a body image workbook.

  Speaker 2: 8:12

  And then we also have done just for other professionals. So we've done it for doctors to kind of see what these are things to look out for, like we're not asking you to work with eating disorders or work with body image. We're asking you when someone says this in front of your presence, that's kind of, oh, maybe you need a little bit more support here's, you know, a resource for you. So we love to be able to kind of just be that consultation. And yeah, we love the community. There's a lot of great organizations that we're a part of that are kind of also have that same, you know, mission to eradicate the stigma around bodies and eating and things like that.

  Speaker 1: 8:43

  That's an amazing mission. That's why Sturdy Girl exists. Is that shifting of our energy away from like with body image right, it's internal. It's the work on realizing that we have worth outside of just our appearance. And then, coming from that, I love that mission and that you have gotten so involved in the community, have made yourself a resource in the medical setting of you're not asking them to diagnose or treat these people, you're like, hey, no, here's an extra resource.

  Speaker 1: 9:07

  So if you hear these people say certain things that may seem like red flags or maybe like it might benefit for you to have more support and more conversations around this, here you go. That's wonderful. And speaking in schools that is a goal of mine with Sturdy Girl and with conversations around building self-confidence and improving body image. I would love, love to get into middle schools. It's kind of the age range that I would really love to connect with, because when kids can learn those skills earlier, there's a hell of a lot less unlearning that they have to do as adults, which is why a lot of the conversations on Sturdy Girl are about is a lot of that unlearning process.

  Speaker 2: 9:43

  They're such an impressionable age when they're teenagers. I remember when we were doing a series on our Instagram around a body image. Some of the stats that we pulled is as young as three. Girls were worried about their body.

  Speaker 1: 9:55

  Yeah, and it was something absurd, statistic of percentage of girls by the age of five that had clued into body image.

  Speaker 2: 10:01

  Yeah, and so in that, again going back to how we wanted to be a resource, we then did a whole series on how parents can talk to themselves, because, again, their kids are listening, and things like that, and so just like everyone can be impacted and affected by it and it's, you know, just even changing little conversations. I mean, I do it now with my friends and families and even, you know, maybe people I shouldn't, because I don't know them too well. I'll be like, oh, let's be a little kinder to ourselves. You don't have to earn that food. I have no problem interjecting. Sometimes I'm a little bit more spicier depending on if I know the person.

  Speaker 1: 10:29

  But definitely just kind of the subtle things in the same way that our thoughts.

  Speaker 2: 10:42

  You know, if we have negative thoughts that they impact so much of bombarding yourself with negative messages or telling yourself these negative messages, it's no wonder that you're going to be in this state of, oh, I don't deserve this or I shouldn't this, and you know you're in all that judgment. And so just even a couple of sentences here and there, it will eventually makes a big difference.

  Speaker 1: 11:01

  Okay, so just to segue from here, I want to hear your thoughts about body image as a therapist. Sturdy Girl really started from a place of body image conversations. Indirectly, sturdy Girl came from a conversation I had with a great uncle where my grandma was trying to show him videos of me powerlifting and she forced him to watch these videos. I could shove them in his face and he's looking across the table at me and he's like well, aren't you just a sturdy girl? And my reaction initially was like take offense, because you know he's actually disgusted. But instead I was like you're right, thank you.

  Speaker 1: 11:33

  And that extrapolated into telling the story on social media, which turned into hey guys, we should make some shirts. Which turned into selling almost 200 shirts in two weeks, which is absurd. Like I'm not an influencer by any means and that's just. It resonated with people enough. And then, seeing these shirts in the wild and having every person that I had a conversation with that I saw wearing these shirts came back to something about resilience, something about body image, something about their confidence in themselves, and I was like there's more here. My husband has a background in advertising and he spent the next six months like are we doing this? Are we making some of this Like it's worth talking about? So working with someone on body image, like there's so much conversation on social media and in the media about body positivity or loving ourselves, is that the end goal? The floor is yours. Tell me all the things.

  Speaker 2: 12:22

  Many people may not like me, but that's not the end goal. The end goal is being able to accept what comes and not have to submit to it or feel like you have to change or adapt yourself. Right, and so what I mean by that is we're human. We can't control every thought that comes into our mind. Right, we're gonna have negative body image thoughts. You're gonna get ready for a dinner and you're gonna be like I don't feel good in what I'm wearing. That's not bad. It's what you do with that thought that's going to matter. Right, like, let's walk through that. Right, using this dinner, this getting ready for a dinner. You're getting ready. You're having all these negative thoughts. You have a couple of options you can turn about. You can call someone there's all these different things that you can do or you can choose not to go. And when you choose not to go, you're now giving power to that negative thought, because you're allowing that thought to then dictate the rest of whatever that night was going to look like for you.

  Speaker 2: 13:21

  Sure, you might go and you might not be comfortable, but being able to be present and just acknowledging like, hey, this thought's here and I don't have to do anything with it. I think that's just really what it comes down to. And then we also want to think about with body image. There's really four aspects of it. There's our perceptual body image, and this is the way you see your body. Then there's the affective body image, the way you feel about it. There's the cognitive how you think about your body. And then there's also that behavioral, which is the behaviors that you engage in as a result of your body. And so when you're thinking about those four different aspects, you can kind of think about like, what kind of thought am I having right now? Is this a perceptual thought? Is this a behavioral thought? Am I thinking that I need to go to the gym to change X, y and Z? Okay, that to do that, that is not going to be sustainable for however long you think it's going to be. It won't. You're going to slowly snowball into maybe more behaviors or even some disordered eating. There's so many things with that. And so just really also identifying what type of body image thought am I having right now, or rather, what type of body image am I having? Because the thought one is the cognitive body image. I think that's just really important, and body image is a spectrum.

  Speaker 2: 14:21

  You're going to wake up one day feeling great. You're like I like this outfit, I like how I did my hair, I like accessories you have on. You're walking into the office, you pass some big glass mirror and you're like, oh gosh, I don't like how I look. But that's one split second does not need to determine the rest of your day, because, for all you know, you may not even think about your body again that day, and that's okay too. You don't have to always be thinking about it. It can just be like, okay, I exist, your body's your home. You know what are you doing in your home. That's what really matters. And how are you taking care of that?

  Speaker 1: 14:50

  I 100% agree. It's really interesting to me I get stuck on just how much body positivity is talked about and how much it's oh, it's about body love and loving yourselves and all of that love and loving yourselves and all of that. I think that for some people, that is maybe where they want to work towards, but so often they see that and they want that. But we're starting in a place of like they hate themselves, there's nothing they like about themselves, and so when you talk about the different parts of body image, there's first that even building awareness around our thoughts, Because so many people don't take the time to hear their thoughts, if that makes sense.

  Speaker 1: 15:25

  Right To tune into wow, I trash talk myself when I look in the mirror every time. That's insane. I never noticed that before. No wonder I feel like crap when I get dressed in the morning. Oh, every time that I go and do this thing, I have this dinner tonight and I have all this anxiety around what I'm wearing, because every time I get dressed, this is what I say to myself. When we start paying attention to those thoughts and that awareness is like such a huge skill in this whole process.

  Speaker 2: 15:50

  Yeah, because otherwise, going back to what you said, right, like there are some people who maybe do achieve body positivity, body acceptance, body love, finish that sentence however you want and that, again, is individualized to that person. That's what this comes down to is that it's going to look different for every single person, and it's also not only is it going to look different for every single person, it's going to look different for each person at different points of their life.

  Speaker 1: 16:10

  Because no matter how healthy of a relationship we have with ourselves. So, however you want to identify that level of body image, what it comes down to is our relationship with ourselves and how we relate to our body. You know it's all those pieces. We're always going to have those negative thoughts come up. Like you said, no matter how much work we've done. There's resilience that comes into play. And then there's also what we end up relating a lot to on the podcast is body image flexibility. So where you were talking about it's how you respond to those thoughts. It's the resilience piece of how do I respond in the face of these negative thoughts, these negative situations, people saying things right, the reaction to the thoughts that come up when you're like, oh shit, that person wore that outfit way better than me. What was I thinking? You know, where are we going to take that? How do we respond?

  Speaker 2: 16:59

  Yeah, and what do you do with that? And yeah, absolutely. I mean, it really is about like, what are the actions that you're taking? How are you letting it impact behaviors and experiences? You know, I think about so many individuals that I see when I'm working with them is, you know I'll be like, oh, how is so wrapped up in these not truthful thoughts? They're all lies, but they weren't even able to experience something. And so I love, when I work with a client, that that's something that they tell me early on in the work they were doing. And then you know, kind of throughout the year or the years, they're finally going to an event and they're like I really enjoyed it. You know they can tell me about the event and not about how they were experiencing body image in that moment, and I think that's the thing is like progress is going to look different for every single person of what that looks like too.

  Speaker 1: 17:42

  Absolutely. So I'm going to relate this to a personal experience, just real quick, just thinking about this continual work piece of it and events, that kind of thing. So in the last few months, because of all the things going on in my world, movement and exercise, like I am generally a person I love to run and I love to lift, they are things that bring me joy, that reinforce self-efficacy, like they are my jam, and they have taken a backseat to all the other things going on and it has been very hard to accept that. That is just the season where I'll set goals for myself of 20 minutes of movement a day. So we walk the dogs or we have a garage gym, so I'll hop out and like work with some dumbbells a little bit.

  Speaker 1: 18:20

  But my body composition has changed and I was recently in my sister's wedding. We wore like spaghetti strap dresses with some cleavage and half back showing, you know, and my initial thought when I got this dress was like my arms have lost all of their muscle tone, right. And you're like what am I making this mean about myself? Oh my gosh. But that spiral was like ready to start. It was there and I was like you have arms that are functional. Are we worried about how they look? Really, is this a concern? They're functional.

  Speaker 1: 18:49

  You are wearing this dress to support your sister's day and it was such an interesting like to catch that spiral and, like it started, it really did of like, oh, you're going to be seeing people you haven't seen in forever, your ex-boyfriend's going to be there, like all of these things. What are you going to do with that? And so fast forward to the event itself. I did not care an ounce about my body. It was like those pre-conversations to have had with myself of catching myself in that, asking what I'm making it mean, being thankful for this functionality piece and then getting dressed. That day I spent three hours on the dance floor with my friends and I got home that night and I was like I didn't think about the appearance of my arms at all.

  Speaker 2: 19:27

  Yeah, and I think, the more that you're able to catch, like you said, it's about that awareness of knowing okay, when is this spiral happening? I think so often when people aren't aware of that, they've already spiraled before they can even be like wait, what happened here? So I think that's beautiful, that you were able to just kind of catch that in that moment and just be like no, actually this does not matter. It's not going to matter to me in 10 years, it's not going to matter to me in 15. It's not going to matter to me on that day, like it just isn a little boost.

  Speaker 1: 19:49

  But also, I am very naturally pale skinned and these dresses were celery green and I looked like a Victorian sick person without it. So I was like, okay, we need a little boost, right. And that was just like that feel good piece.

  Speaker 2: 20:08

  And you know, that brings up a topic that I think is sometimes not discussed often is, if you do decide to wear makeup, if you decide to get a spray tan, if you decide to do any type of body modification, what's the intention behind it? Right, what is the intention? I'll be the first to admit that I would absolutely get a nose job, and it has literally nothing to do about my body. It's just like something that I think I would want to do. Right, and it's not about, oh, I don't like myself or it's. You know, it's maybe a little bit of an insecurity, but that doesn't mean I'm going to change my whole life. If I can't get one, I can't get one.

  Speaker 2: 20:36

  But I think it's really about what's my intentionality behind this, of doing this in the same way of going. You know, when you're talking about, like, working out being very much like a mental health thing, and for listeners it's like why are you working out? Are you dreading going? Are you hating what you're doing there? Are you timing yourself? Is it about numbers? If it's that, it's not going to be beneficial for you. It's really about like my body can do this. I like this. Also, like your body may change. It may not change, but it's about like are you actively going to the gym to change your body or is your body just naturally changing because you're just doing more movement in your life? And if you can't do a day, are you OK with that?

  Speaker 1: 21:11

  Yes, that's so huge. I struggled with that for a long time. Actually. It's hard. That was also such a period of time of earn your shower, no days off, never miss a Monday. That was so prevalent. I experienced massive running burnout because of that, because I spent I don't know how many years running six days a week and following these training plans. That were insane. And then you burn out because you're not doing it for the right reasons and you're not taking care of yourself and yeah, Exactly.

  Speaker 2: 21:41

  And you have all these different people, whether it's a provider or other people, telling you what you should be doing. Wait, what do I want to be doing? What am I doing? And the thing that goes back to you know, taking care of our body that's part of body image is taking care of it and putting it through duress and stress through intense exercise. If you're not in a sport or something like that is expected of you, and even then I think that's another conversation I can have you know you shouldn't be putting your body through that Like you should be doing things because like you want, want to, and then it's mindful to you. And again, if you have to miss a couple of days, you should be OK with that, and that's also a big thing that comes up within body image and exercise.

  Speaker 1: 22:18

  OK, I want to talk self-care, but first just because you touched on that a little bit, but first, for someone who's working on body image, we talked about that awareness. We talk about, I'm going to say, challenging your thoughts or a little bit what you said at the very beginning, like, when those thoughts come up, of asking yourself like, are these true? And being able to challenge, like you even changed just a couple of your thoughts. Are there any other things that you could give for people that are actively like you know what I want? To work on this in a way that is going to improve my relationship with self and let's help my body image get better.

  Speaker 2: 22:50

  I would say one of the biggest things is identifying what's influencing your body image. Get better. I would say one of the biggest things is identifying what's influencing your body image, right, is it the gym? Is it family members? Is it social media? What is it that you can replenish in a healthy way that is influencing some of those thoughts? And I think that's one of the first things, which, again, is that awareness and bringing that awareness. Some other, you know tips would be not being so hard on yourself if you do have a bad body image day, because again it is going to happen, but it's what you do with it.

  Speaker 2: 23:13

  Reaching out to a friend, I think accountability is a huge part of being able to heal from something. It's just letting someone know like, hey, I'm struggling with this. I'm not asking that you do anything and I might just text you one day or call you and say like, hey, I'm having a really bad body image day and I think, knowing that there's someone that you can reach out to and it's not just in your head, because that's the thing right, all the thoughts that you're having, they're not out loud, they're all in your head. So if you can say something out loud and it's like just give it. I don't want to say give a name to it or give a voice to it, but just get it out. Essentially, just think that you're just like screaming it, whatever it is. That's to see a therapist that specializes in body image and doing that alongside of someone that can guide you with, because there might be, you know, some things that are going to come up that are really uncomfortable, really hard, and you know you don't have to do that alone.

  Speaker 2: 23:57

  So I would say those are some, some tips and really just like, do have bad body image before an event is then asking yourself after the event like what did I enjoy about? It? Objectively has nothing to do with your body. Name the people that were there, write it down. Write down some of the colors that you saw while you were there. Write down the smells. You know we're thinking about grounding in the five senses. Just jot that down after an event of just like anything outside of body image, and I think that can be really helpful to give yourself a reminder. Wait, these are some things that happen that has nothing to do with my body and how I felt about it no-transcript is Well, I very much could have, because those didn't actually affect anything beyond inside my head.

  Speaker 2: 25:02

  You're still who you are. You're still, you know that that teacher, that lawyer, that doctor, that mother, that sister, that brother, like, you're all of those things. It does not matter what you look like or how. Your body, again, your body is your home. All of those things that you are is a part of that home.

  Speaker 1: 25:16

  Yep, and I like to think about it too of figuring out how to make your home a safe place to be.

  Speaker 2: 25:21

  I think that goes back to like what I was saying like what influence is that native body image? What do you need to kind of declutter so that you can replenish with things that are going to help you flourish? And again, it's not going to happen overnight, it's going to be a slow process, but if you can find just one thing, that's like wait, this actually does impact my body image a lot.

  Speaker 1: 25:38

  I think about it in terms, too, of how did your body image story get written? Because there's a lot of the past influences too of I'm a kid of the 90s, so when you think about the messages that we got from the media of what women's bodies were supposed to look like and how much that impacted it, how did your parents speak about their bodies growing up, or your siblings or the people you went to school with, right and see okay, can I identify maybe where some of my beliefs have come from as well? And then how does that come into present day? What is continuing this belief?

  Speaker 1: 26:11

  My mom struggled with anorexia for probably close to 20 years, and that's what I was raised around, and there was a conversation that she and I had at some point where she's like I feel like that maybe you held this against me for a long time and I said, no, it was recognizing in my adult life how much that impacted my relationship with food, how much that impacted my relationship with my body, because I am not built like my mom.

  Speaker 1: 26:33

  I have a very different body type, naturally, and so it was such a struggle when I would hear those things like I have to weigh myself three times a day. I can't eat that because I can't gain any more weight. And so, having those influences when you're this young, impressionable kid, there was a lot that I had to unpack from that with a therapist this was all like therapy, thank you, but there's a lot there. There's a lot there to understanding that you may not even be aware of, and I think that was for me. I didn't realize half of the beliefs that I carried with me about, about food, about my body, about how I dressed, about how I carried myself. It all came back to those influences growing up.

  Speaker 2: 27:07

  Yeah, because it was normalized. That's all you knew. And so, yeah, absolutely, you're going to continue that until it's like, wait until, whether you call it out. Someone calls it out, like maybe this isn't the best for you, and again it goes back to for you, like everyone is is different. Everyone's body type is different, everyone's genetic makeup is different. Everyone's just like a bill. Like everything is so different. There is not a one size fits all with anything.

  Speaker 1: 27:28

  This is a total aside, but do you utilize journal prompts at all with clients or with work on body image?

  Speaker 2: 27:34

  Yeah, I do and like one that I really like is who do you admire that has a healthy relationship with body and what's one thing that you would like to take for yourself with that? Again, because we don't want anyone to be like, oh I have to do exactly what everyone, what that person is doing that I admire. But what is one thing that you think that you could maybe try? So I like that one? I mean, I think that can be just really helpful, just free flowing and just like, kind of just sentence completion of just like my body is. I think one thing that I really like is what are current behaviors or thoughts that I have about my body that I want to change. I think that can be really helpful. It's like as a starting point, because it can be really overwhelming to be like all right.

  Speaker 1: 28:09

  I'm gonna work on body image. Now what?

  Speaker 2: 28:10

  There's so many things you can sell. It's like, okay, just identify like an unbulleted list, like three things that you just want to see different with yourself. You know that can be an emotion that you have about your body. That can be, you know, a thought that you have about your body. That can be an action. There's so many different things that you can do with that Okay.

  Speaker 1: 28:26

  Question how do you feel about affirmations?

  Speaker 2: 28:29

  I think it goes back to what is the intention of the affirmation, right? Some people it doesn't work, and I think that also goes back to that. Right, it's not a one size fits all. I have clients where I'm like, let's try some affirmations, we try it. I'm like that is not going to work for you. We need to do something more actionable, something that you, you know, really just depends. But I do think it does go back, though, to also like the more that you're more positive with yourself. Whatever that is, it doesn't have to even be in an affirmation, it can just literally just be like be kind to yourself. You can just tell yourself, give yourself permission to do like. It doesn't have to be. But I think it's just about changing that, that thought process. I think affirmations can be great, but it can't just be the only thing that that helps. You have to also have some actions around it too.

  Speaker 2: 29:07

  I did some, some affirmations with with a client today and I was like okay, so you wrote that I am strong. All right, what do you want to do with that? Knowing that you are strong, how can you be strong today in your recovery? And then, from there we were able to pull? Oh wait, I'm strong in the fact that I'm going to groups. I'm strong in the fact that you know I can do X, y and Z. I think it doesn't just stop at, like the affirmation, it's what can you pull from that affirmation? You just identify that you're capable, capable of what You're capable of recovery. Okay, you're capable of decreasing this behavior. You just identified you're creative. That's awesome. How can you be creative in this, in this healing journey? What does that look like? So I think it's affirmations can be helpful, but it's not a one and done, it's not a one size fits all.

  Speaker 1: 29:48

  I kind of smirked when I asked that. Just because, again, we talk about body positivity and how it has gotten taken over on social media and turned into something totally different from what actual body positivity research is right, and then we talk about affirmations and research on affirmations is yes, it can work, like you're saying, it's not a one size fits all, but it has to start with something that you believe, or something close to a belief, versus like you're looking in the mirror and you're telling yourself that you're fat and ugly and you hate yourself, but then you want to write this affirmation that says I'm a gorgeous, bold and confident person.

  Speaker 2: 30:21

  Yeah, which is very all or nothing, which is a very unhealthy thinking.

  Speaker 1: 30:25

  But there's so much of that of people that are like, oh, I just started like saying affirmations to myself in the mirror and I'm telling myself all of these things it has to start from a place of belief and it has to start from a place, like you said, of the application piece, and I was thinking too, and this was something that just occurred to me. I was it's been like two weeks ago. I was reading a paper on affirmations as a practice. It led me back to just thinking about as thoughts come up, letting them go and not having to identify with them, and that piece part of affirmations practice is you're trying to bring more of the thoughts that you want to have into your brain with those. So I love that actionable piece that you're talking about, because that's something I've never considered of like. Okay, if I believe that I'm strong, am I talking about? How am I saying I'm strong? What am I going to do about that? I really that's wonderful Of course.

  Speaker 2: 31:13

  I think it's a great exercise to do Like again, because you can say that and you know there's people are like, oh, you just say until you believe it. And it's like you can't believe something unless there's something actionable with it.

  Speaker 1: 31:22

  People talk about the concept of manifestation and trying to bring things into reality and you're like, yeah, but there's action, yeah.

  Speaker 2: 31:30

  And you may not even know that you're doing it, though, too, there is maybe a piece of that where like, yeah, manifestation, but like, what have you done? What have you changed about your mindset? You know who are you hanging out with. There are things that you've done inadvertently that has led to that intention for you, you know. Just going back to that, too, is another thing when I'm working with clients is what's the intention with your body image? Right, when we put goals, we're then setting like a deadline of this has to be done. If I don't meet this, then you get into that spiral of oh, I didn't meet it, I'm not good enough, I feel defeated. But if you can set an intention an intention is flexible you can always change that intention.

  Speaker 2: 32:02

  All right, so you didn't hit that thing that you wanted to hit with your body, with, you know, improving body image in three months. That was just the intention. Right, let's just bump it out three more months. That's totally fine. And I think when we take away like a resolution or a goal and I can talk again about that all day, about the difference between goals, resolution and intentions- Do you want to do like a New Year's episode in a couple of months?

  Speaker 1: 32:22

  Absolutely.

  Speaker 2: 32:22

  Oh my gosh, I love that stuff. You really set that, that tone of wait. Like I can do this. It doesn't have to be an all or nothing. I think so many people get stuck in that all or nothing and in the moment that it doesn't work, people just stop, it's okay. But what about that didn't work? What was one of the barriers? You know, maybe set something so unrealistic it wasn't going to be be set.

  Speaker 1: 32:41

  I think that that's really worthwhile because that also speaks to the skill of reevaluating, readjusting, pivoting, whatever you want to call that, because you're talking about setting goals versus intentions. I still talk to clients about goals, but goals from a more self-compassionate standpoint, of understanding that progress takes time, and the skill of being able to set benchmarks within those goals and smaller objectives, to check in with yourself, to say is this plan of action to reach this goal working? What can we change? What isn't going well? Do we need to pivot? Do we need to adjust the goal? And like coming back to that because it's so interesting going to the all or nothing thinking it's so easy. We set that goal, we've got to chase it until it's done, and I was that person for a very, very long time and still notice those tendencies.

  Speaker 2: 33:29

  Even when you can learn to appreciate that thought process, it's a hard thing to unlearn it is One of those things like when we do that and we go full force into one goal or a couple of goals, we're missing out on all the experience getting there. We're missing out on so many other things that maybe need to be addressed. You know that's part of it is that you really have to take that pause. It is okay to pause and it's okay to go back to that drawing board and be like wait you know what.

  Speaker 1: 33:53

  Actually, I don't even want that. That's another thing Again whose intention is it?

  Speaker 2: 33:56

  Is it yours or is it this expectation that you feel like you should have? And it's also the same thing, going back to what your question about body positivity, body love, and that's okay. What?

  Speaker 1: 34:03

  is it that you?

  Speaker 2: 34:15

  want, and I think that's another thing. When you're exploring body image or trying to figure out, what does that look like? Exploring like wait, what is it that I truly want? Is this a societal expectation that you feel like you should have?

  Speaker 1: 34:26

  Okay. So that intentionality piece is so huge. This is a conversation to be had of do I want this thing because I want it, or is it because this is what someone else said? What society has said? What do I actually want, like, what's the intention behind this? It's interesting to me how there are certain conversations that I will have on repeat, and this is one of them right now is just that piece of how do I figure out what I want. Sometimes you have to start with what you don't want and the intentionality behind oh shoot, this was not actually a goal for me. This was to prove this about myself. Well, what's another way we can work towards that?

  Speaker 1: 35:05

  I really enjoy running, just for all kinds of reasons and, honestly, it started out to make my body smaller, not going to lie. That was where the obsession started and then growing from there and through experiences, I started chasing marathons and a sub four hour marathon because I wanted to be seen as a good runner or a fast runner, and I ran a handful of road marathons chasing that goal. I wanted to Boston qualify. And then, right about the time of running burnout was that realization of I don't care. I actually don't care about running a sub eight minute mile for a marathon. That has no interest to me or who I want to be or my goals.

  Speaker 1: 35:45

  I really love trail running and putzing along and watching the trees and tripping over tree roots and having a grand time with dirt underneath my feet. That is something that I love. It is not pushing myself to see how far and fast I can go for 26.2 miles. That's not a goal and it was because I was so caught up in all the other runners that I was associating with. I was down the rabbit hole of Strava and comparison and all of those things.

  Speaker 2: 36:11

  I think that's beautiful to be able to find that you know, to be able to be like wait, I can just do this with friends. I can just do this because I want to and not because I'm feeling like I have, like you said to me, a certain number.

  Speaker 1: 36:21

  It's so interesting because, like, I'm saying this and I've got conviction and feeling behind it, but there's still that was six years ago there is still a part of my brain that I'm like, oh my God, someone listening to this might be like well then, how are you a run coach If you don't care about pace? Are you going to care about me and my pace? And it's such an interesting. It's still there, Even working through that. It's still a piece of that where I'm like, yeah, absolutely.

  Speaker 2: 36:52

  I can help people run faster. I know how I't necessarily have to be consumed by it and I think that's part of it, and the same thing with body image, right, like you, don't have to be consumed by it.

  Speaker 1: 36:59

  And I think that's the beautiful thing about working on body image is, with the body image flexibility piece Like I said we've had conversations on the podcast about before is you get to a point where the goal isn't to be like, oh I love my body so much, I like look in the mirror and I can tell myself how beautiful I am, or like this effervescent, big, encompassing thing. A lot of times, a healthy body image is not thinking about your body as much and not spending as much energy on well, how might this appear to other people? How do I look in this? How does this? Do I have big enough arms or legs or whatever Like, instead of spending that energy on being present, on those relationships and connections and those things that are more important.

  Speaker 2: 37:37

  That's how it's measured.

  Speaker 1: 37:38

  Agreed. Okay, my own curiosity perspective, not necessarily for the podcast. Is there any type of therapy that you have found to be most beneficial when you are coaching, when you're in sessions with clients on body image or improving their relationship with themselves? Is there any modality?

  Speaker 2: 37:53

  Not necessarily. It really just depends on, again, like I approach therapy, in the way I approach many things in life, which is no one size fits all. I definitely have different specialties that I can pull from, but it's really about like, what does that person need in that moment? Right, when I'm thinking about someone who has a bunch of negative body image thoughts, I'm like, okay, we can do some cognitive behavioral therapy. You really need some reframe. You need to really see how that's impacting behaviors. If I have someone that's just so distressed every time they have to get ready for whatever it is, let's do some grounding. That's going to be our dialectical behavior therapy. That's what we're going to do. You know, I have individuals that are kind of maybe been in this journey for a while and they're like, I just kind of need to reground, and so we're going to look at acceptance therapy of like values. What are the values that you have and how is your negative body image dishonoring the value that you want for yourself and that you have for yourself? And so really, it just depends on where someone's at in their journey.

  Speaker 2: 38:43

  I also have done like exposure therapy. Well, you know, I am a virtual practice, but I'll have my client FaceTime me. They're going to the store, we're doing a shopping exposure together. I'll have clients who will do a mere exposure assignment where they have to kind of like, look at their body, talk about it objectively. I don't typically do that with people that are new to exploring their body image because it can be a really I don't want to say triggering, but it can be a very emotional experience. It can be a very distracting experience If you're not in a place to know. Okay, if I do get kind of more dysregulated, what do I need to do? You know I do worksheets with people, journal prompts. You know there's a bunch of different modalities and different techniques and interventions, but it really is just about what someone wants and also recognizing that we might try 400 different ones, that 401 is the one that's going to work.

  Speaker 1: 39:25

  And sometimes I feel like, too, it's. It's trying things more than once, too, and having that conversation with clients as well. I want to be inside your brain. Your wealth of knowledge is just really impressive. I am most familiar with like ACT, with acceptance and commitment therapy as it relates to like body image research. So, anyways, okay, with body image one piece and we touched on this way back in the beginning of the conversation. We talked about like taking care of ourselves. I would really love to talk to you a little bit about self-care, because I feel like the term gets such a bad rap of bubble baths and face masks and massages and nail appointments and whatever else.

  Speaker 1: 40:01

  I wish listeners could see my face right now, but yes, these are the things that we're like oh yeah, yeah, that's self-care. Oh, I know, I'll take it. Yeah, sure yeah, when that's self-care oh, I know, I'll take it. Yeah, sure, yeah, when that's not really what it is. I'm saying that with my nails done for my sister's wedding and I'm I still am like oh, this was really fun.

  Speaker 2: 40:19

  That goes again. There's options. It doesn't just have to be a one size fits all. There's so many different things. I love talking about self-care. I actually do a self-care, continuing education for different providers on how to take care of yourself, not just as a provider, but what that actually looks like. And self-care is what replenishes you, what restores you and what makes you happy. That is what self-care is.

  Speaker 2: 40:37

  If you're dreading having to go do your self-care, that's not self-care. If you're doing self-care because someone told you like, hey, go get your nails done or go have a spa day, that's not self-care. Spa day is great. I just had one the other day. I loved it. But I'll be honest, I was not relaxed in that spa day because I kept thinking, oh my gosh, I'm waiting for this email to come through and that was not self-care for me.

  Speaker 2: 40:55

  Self-care is really about being intentional with your time and you know what. It doesn't have to be alone. If your self-care is going out with friends and having a dinner, that is self-care. You do not have to do that by yourself. I think that's what a lot of people think is that they have to be isolated. They have to be like okay, I'm taking my self-care hour. You can do that. I think that works for some people, but for some people it's not. My self-care personally is football. I absolutely love football. I love watching football. I love playing football. And I'll go on a really short tangent about how I develop my self-care.

  Speaker 2: 41:25

  Back in grad school, spring semester, I'm sitting at my internship and I get an email from my grad school supervisor. It's like hey, before class start, I'd love to talk to you. No one wants that email from a grad school supervisor. No one wants that. I was like, oh my gosh, like what happened? Like you know, I'm like thinking every worst case scenario because anxiety.

  Speaker 2: 41:42

  And I go and sit across from her and she was so intentional with the conversation. She goes how are you doing? And I was like oh fine, everything's. You know, things are great. And she's like I don't believe you. And I'm like well, that's really bold of you to say you're just my supervisor at school. And she's like you're different than than fall semester. And I'm like okay, and she's like what was different for you in the fall than than now? And I was like we're sitting. You know there had been life events that had happened, but nothing. That was like, yes, that's what it had to be, you know. And we're sitting in there and then she finally goes.

  Speaker 2: 42:14

  She goes, what do you do for self care? And I didn't have an answer. And she's like, okay, what would you do in the fall semester that you really looked forward to or enjoyed? And I was like Dr Maslow, I was playing with my fantasy league and stuff. And she goes that that there, that's your self-care. And to this day it is absolutely my self-care. Like I know the shift that happens. I've now developed a better spring and summer self-care now that I know. But it was somebody being like, hey, what shifted between your fall and spring semester school in my mid 20s for me to be like, wait, that is what brings me self-care to the. I've changed flights to watch football games. I had football playing at my wedding I mean I joke with my sister who's getting married next October and I'm like that's a Saturday.

  Speaker 1: 43:00

  What time is that wedding on Saturday?

  Speaker 2: 43:02

  You know football beyond, so, like I, love it, but it's about finding what brings you joy, and that's really what it comes down to. I have other things that bring me joy, but I know my self-care peak is what. I can just sit and watch a couple of games, and again that could, for some people can be watching a show, that can be cooking, that can be spending time with people, and again, I could talk about self-care forever too. It's building it into your routine. You can't just do self-care when all of a sudden you're like, oh my God, I need self-care. You need to build that into your practice every single week, whatever that looks like.

  Speaker 1: 43:34

  Preventative maintenance.

  Speaker 2: 43:36

  Yes, preventative self-care, I love it. There's so, so many things that building a habit, but that's really what self-care is. It's what's replenishes you, what restores you and what brings you joy.

  Speaker 1: 43:57

  I need another R word instead of joy and happy, just so I can have you know the three R's to replenish and something Like rejuvenate. Almost yeah, I'll think on it. This makes me think about. There is a book called Play that is about research on the importance of play, especially as adults, and that's one of those things where they're like your form of play is what you enjoy. It's not saying you need to dance in your kitchen or go slide down a slide at a playground, like as we think of traditional methods of play. It is what is helping you be present in the moment and something you enjoy. That helps nourish and replenish you. Like. That's exactly what play is. One of the examples I use is like.

  Speaker 1: 44:25

  We tend to give adults who play video games a bad rap. Oh, you're wasting time, like you should be. Exactly, yes, wasting time. And it's just so interesting to me because the way that the whole book is like here are some ideas for play. Here's what the research says about play.

  Speaker 1: 44:39

  It is so important to our health and well-being. And so now, when you're like no, no, like this is also how we define self-care, I'm like even more so. It gives such a different perspective for people Another way to, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. When I've talked about self-care in the past and with clients, we talk about sometimes that self-care and maybe this falls more under like self-compassion too of holding ourselves accountable for taking care of ourselves and our beings, so we were like if it doesn't bring you joy, it's not self-care. But I like to think in terms of. I've had a number of conversations recently with moms and they tend to put all of their needs on the back burner. One of those things is scheduling your regular doctor visit, scheduling your regular dental visit, things that take care of you and your long-term health and well-being, and holding yourself accountable to taking care of you. Would you consider those things self-care or is that different?

  Speaker 2: 45:35

  Yeah, I, absolutely. I do to an extent, though right, like I'm not sure. Many people like to sit on the phone waiting for a receptionist to be like yes, we have an appointment for you. I think it's about like knowing that. I think what it is is that when you can take care of yourself, you can then engage in that self-care. It's a piece of the puzzle. Again, I can't speak for everyone. Personally, I don't think doctor appointments self care, but for some people it might be. That might be that moment where they get to talk about themselves. They get to be like, hey, this is what's going on. I feel good after I went and saw whatever provider.

  Speaker 2: 45:59

  I needed to see, and that can be you know self care, but also recognizing that could also just be for somebody a piece of that to be able to fully go and engage in whatever their self-care is.

  Speaker 1: 46:08

  For sure, and just think of that both and piece of. I love talking about self-compassion when it comes to the coaching I do with runners and people who strength train and building their schedules and time management. All of that is part of that self-compassion piece is recognizing, like, if you're super tired from the day are we having the conversation of, is the self-compassionate thing to skip the workout and go to bed early? Is a self-compassionate thing to say no? I have had this conversation with myself for three weeks and I have let myself just go to bed early, but what happens is I read a book for two hours. Instead, I am going to go give my, I'm going to set a timer for 20 minutes, and the self-compassionate thing is to hold myself accountable to get some in, because I know this helps me feel better, like to work towards these goals that I've set for myself or these things, and like it's such an interesting piece because I think that a lot of times, compassion for people is like oh, that just means it's a free for all. I'm off the hook.

  Speaker 2: 47:01

  It's a catch all it's the same way, right when people are like oh, self-care is selfish, it's not. It's actually you're doing yourself and others a disservice when you do not take care of yourself.

  Speaker 1: 47:09

  If you haven't learned how to take care of you, it's hard to take care of others, making sure that those needs are met, or learning what those needs are like for you. You're like, my needs are football and it's having that time for you for the things that you enjoy, and that's something so often that I, especially in this recent, just insane season, is recognizing. Have I done anything for me? I'm having, like, all these family things going, I've taken care of mom and I'm taking care of this and I'm taking care of all these other pieces. Well, have I done something for myself at all? Because that is where those feelings beginning, feelings of burnout, came from. Okay, like relating it back.

  Speaker 2: 47:43

  And just recognizing, like, in what life area can you instill self-care? Right? There's financial self-care, there's environmental self-care. There's so many different proponents and it goes back to the way I was talking about body image, about, like, identifying what's one thing that you can just start focusing on, start focusing on just one of those aspects. You can't do it all at one time, but the more that you can do with that one aspect say, it is for you financial self-care right, and you're taking care of yourself financially, whatever that looks like for you, debt, job savings, you know, whatever that looks like.

  Speaker 2: 48:12

  Okay, you've now been able to do that. You have the space and energy to now focus on the self-care that you want to do around your work. Okay, what about your job? Is it that you need to put more focus on self-care? Cause it's all tied together. Self-care is. It is time consuming, but that time is well spent. I think that's the thing is, people are like, oh, I don't have the time. Okay, you say you don't have the time, and what are you spending time on? That is not replenishing, not restoring you and that you're dreading.

  Speaker 2: 48:39

  And it could be because you're not just engaging in something to give yourself that energy to go do whatever those things are. It may not be that you hate that thing, it's just you don't have the space and energy to do it.

  Speaker 1: 48:48

  When you're like what are you doing? That's not replenishing, and I was like doom scrolling.

  Speaker 2: 48:52

  That's another thing. Right, the comparison piece that comes up when we're on social media. I have social media, I have no problem saying that, and social media can be such a deep hole If you are not in a place mentally and emotionally to be like wait, I'm confident in myself that the things that I'm seeing are not going to impact my next decision.

  Speaker 1: 49:10

  I mean that's absolutely worthwhile, like saying that in and of itself, because I think for me it's so interesting.

  Speaker 1: 49:16

  I love social media for the aspect that it is connected me to so many wonderful people through this podcast and interviews with clients, with other coaches. I have a handful of friends that I met directly through Instagram that are wonderful. But, like you said, it's the intention, like this, we're going to just tie this all right back around to the beginning of our conversation about the intention piece. Are you equipped enough to know that, yeah, your next decision isn't going to be predicated by what you see on social media and you're not going to be influenced by the things that you're scrolling on? How are you using social media? Because I think that I'll say from my experience as a podcast host and creating content, a lot of people have conversations around working on body image or bad body image days, and they'll tell you to curate your feed on social media and they'll tell you to watch your social media time, and I think it's really interesting because that's putting the onus on the social media and not on yourself and your response to those things.

  Speaker 2: 50:11

  I actually I created a self-assessment about social media usage and basically it's what platform do you use, how do you feel before you use it, how much time are you spending on it, what thoughts do you have on it? And then, like a reflection after and I actually made ones that are smaller, where you monitor that for a week and see how much it's really interesting when you start to really be again intentional about what's my usage Wait, do I actually want to be doing? This Goes back to like what is it that you want versus what you think you should be doing, or what, yeah, what you really think you should be doing versus what you want to do.

  Speaker 1: 50:42

  I love that you created a worksheet. You give yourself like qualitative and quantitative data. To make my nerdy heart so happy. I love it.

  Speaker 1: 50:55

  A while ago I did my own, let's say, self-experiment and I replaced where my Instagram app is on my phone with my Kindle app, and I love to read regardless. But I wanted to see how often I caught myself, because then it was like click, click Instagram and it half the time. It's mindless, right, and you want to know like how many times did I do that? So I realized I read an extra book a week in the same amount of time that I would have been scrolling, like the amount of times I grabbed it. Or you can on iPhones I don't know about Androids, but you can look at stats on how many times you clicked on an app, how many times you opened it. It was insane. I don't even want to admit how many times I opened the app in a day and just knowing that, that's how many times I picked up my phone and just think that's the other times you picked up your phone for that app.

  Speaker 2: 51:33

  Think about how many other times you probably picked up your phone for other things. Right, it's just wild how often we do that.

  Speaker 1: 51:38

  Okay, but there's awareness, ta-da. Now you've brought awareness to the thing and since then it has brought so much more intentionality to me of when I pick up my phone, what am I going to do. Why did you pick up your phone? Oh, you're on Instagram. Did you mean to get on Instagram? Do you need to scroll? And I never put my Instagram app back, by the way.

  Speaker 2: 51:58

  And then if someone was, like, well, did you do on there? You probably couldn't tell like content that you see or that what you saw, like maybe one or two things.

  Speaker 1: 52:04

  Maybe I posted or maybe I like made some stories or I don't know, but 119 was the average. And so once I pulled all that together and having that intentionality I haven't checked it in a while, but when I did this it got down to an average of like 15 times in a day, and even then, when you think about that, it's like 15 times that you've picked up your phone. Anyway, we said tangent.

  Speaker 2: 52:24

  Yeah, going back to self-care, I'll just say this self-care is giving the world a better version of you instead of what's left of you. Again, I don't think there is anything that is best or perfect, because that, again, is so absolute and that's a standard no one will ever meet. You can't, you cannot do that in human form. But what you can do is you can be better, and you can't be better unless you take care of yourself.

  Speaker 1: 52:43

  That is wonderful. I had a conversation earlier today about the art of becoming and talking about that kind of as a concept, and that's exactly it right. When we think about ourselves as becoming, about working on things, how can we be better versus perfect or perfecting something? I think that that is, if you're okay with it, a really great place to end on. Unless you had anything else to add on body image or self-care or any of our other side tangents, we went on.

  Speaker 2: 53:09

  I don't think so, but yeah, this has been such a fun conversation.

  Speaker 1: 53:14

  We obviously have 100 tangents. We could go on, but in interest of time I do have some fun small wrap up questions. Do you have any holiday traditions?

  Speaker 2: 53:24

  Every year I try to go to a corn maze and in the fall, winter, I try to see family. So I live on the East Coast, north East Coast, but they're down in Florida, so definitely see family. Nothing like really traditional, but I do try to go to a corn maze at least once a season.

  Speaker 1: 53:39

  That's awesome. Ok, if you had to pick one food to eat for the rest of your life, what would it be? Man, that is, that is hard, you can pick like a type of food, genre, genre, exactly. I was like you can pick cookies and just have it be general, or pizza.

  Speaker 2: 53:54

  I think like potatoes. You can do so much with potatoes. You can make soups with potatoes, you can have fries, you can have like potatoes for breakfast with like I don't know.

  Speaker 1: 54:02

  I feel like potatoes that was legit, the best answer I've ever heard, because year before for my birthday, my friends and I just sent back and forth a bunch of videos that we found on Instagram about throwing a potato birthday party, and it was like a mashed potato cake with French fries with 27 different forms of potatoes.

  Speaker 2: 54:19

  No, potatoes are literally I mean, this is gonna be a really weird like way to bring it back but there is no one individual like type of potato and you can do so much with it, in the same way that we are not individual and there's so many different things that we can be doing. That is literally why I like potatoes, because they're so versatile, and so are we.

  Speaker 1: 54:36

  You just brought it all back around. That was perfect. Okay, next question what is the number one book that you've recommended or given as a gift?

  Speaker 2: 54:44

  The Choice by Dr Edith Egger. I don't think that's how you say her last name, but she is a Holocaust survivor and she talks about her time in the Holocaust as a dancer and that's how she actually survived. Is that, basically, she was valued because she could perform for, unfortunately, the others, and so her story is absolutely beautiful. If anyone can ever pick up a copy, I can never recommend that book enough because she talks about taking something so devastating, so tragic, and turn it into something like she's like I can't just be a victim in this and she talks about victimization and like how that's so bad for our thinking. I'm like, okay, this woman who was in that situation could write a book and talk about that. I'm like, all right, I love it. I think it's an incredible book.

  Speaker 1: 55:24

  Thank you, and it's called the Choice. Second to last question how do you take your coffee or tea or morning beverage of choice?

  Speaker 2: 55:30

  It really depends on the season. I know this sounds like so weird. If it's like a holiday season, it is absolutely a white peppermint mocha. If it's the summer, it's just like a black espresso and then the rest of the time it's just iced coffee. But definitely it's just dependent on what's happening outdoors.

  Speaker 1: 55:45

  It's totally a seasonal thing, I agree. Well, I still haven't transitioned over to hot coffee yet, but I'm an iced coffee all through the summer person.

  Speaker 2: 55:52

  I mean, I'll have iced coffee at any time of the year. If anyone's like, here's an iced coffee, absolutely.

  Speaker 1: 55:57

  But OK, last question when can audiences find you and learn more?

  Speaker 2: 56:00

  Yeah, so they can check me out at my website, prowellnesspracticecom, or on our Instagram, prowellnesspracticewell. But yeah, those are kind of really the two places that were pretty active. And then you also have a podcast. Yes, I do, it's called Grit and to Worth, and if you got this far, then you know why that is called that.

  Speaker 1: 56:19

  Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you for your wealth of knowledge and shared experience. It means the world. Absolutely Thanks so much for having me.

  Speaker 2: 56:26

  This is such a great conversation.

  Speaker 1: 56:28

  All right, friends. Thank you so much for listening to another episode and we will catch you next Friday.

42. Unleash Your Inner Badass with Dana Donnelly

In this episode of Sturdy Girl, host Jess welcomes guest Dana Donnelly, a podcast host, motivational speaker, and author, to discuss empowerment and authentic living. Dana shares her journey from an abusive relationship to self-discovery and personal growth, emphasizing the importance of creating a supportive community for women, especially entrepreneurs. They delve into concepts like 'driftwood' and 'expanders'—terms for seeing others' success as inspiration rather than competition. Dana highlights daily practices like journaling and setting intentions as tools for self-love and accountability. The conversation also touches on the significance of gratitude, mindfulness, and maintaining a positive mindset for achieving personal goals. Dana reinforces building a relationship with oneself through solitude and reflection, offering practical tips like creating a joy list and taking oneself on solo dates. The episode closes with a discussion on redefining self-love and authenticity, encouraging listeners to pursue personal development while maintaining self-compassion.

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• Full Transcript

  Speaker 1: 0:07

  Hello friends and welcome back to Sturdy Girl. We are on episode 42. I'm your host, jess. I can't believe how fast the season already seems to be going by, but we have had wonderful guests so far. I have so many more coming for you. I'm working on a few solo episodes, but I hope your fall is off to a great start. We do have sweatshirts back up on the website if you want to go sturdygirlco slash merch. Those are there with our rad tiger illustration on the back and strength out size. So check those out.

  Speaker 1: 0:42

  But today's guest friends, we are going to talk the joys of podcasting, personal development, but also a couple of content warnings. You will notice the little E next to this episode gets a little spicy. There's a few F-bombs, so if your kids are listening maybe you know put the headphones in. And also just a couple of trigger warnings. We do talk about abusive relationships and coming out of that. All good things, nothing bad. But just a little bit of warning. If there are some sensitivities there, maybe hit fast forward through the first like seven minutes of the episode. So those are your warnings.

  Speaker 1: 1:17

  Now let me give a little intro to Dana. She does give her own intro, which is pretty great. She is an entrepreneur in the personal development world, podcast host, motivational speaker, working on great networking events, soon to be author and journal creator and she does talk about the journal that she's created in this episode too. Her main mission is helping other people with her signature, dana kick in the ass, something she talks about often on her podcast. So let me stop talking about her and let her do all the talking. Here's episode 42. I realized before hitting record that every time I introduce a guest, I say here's another amazing guest, another exciting guest. I have another fellow sturdy human to chat about. All kinds of amazing things. Dana hello, thanks for joining us.

  Speaker 2: 2:06

  Hey, I'm so excited to be here. So, as Jess already said, my name is Dana. I am a podcast host, motivational speaker soon to be, author all the things I have, my own community as well, but really I'm just a woman from Philly on a mission to teach people to unleash their inner badass through everything that I do, even my little social media posts. I am super excited to be here because our missions are definitely aligned and just want to thank you for the opportunity.

  Speaker 1: 2:35

  Yeah, thanks for being here. I love chatting, all things, podcasting, so thank you for I'm going to say commiserating on all of the background stuff that goes into podcasting. But no, this is awesome, I want to know more about what you do. So you mentioned author, obviously podcaster, which we can get to, but just the community piece, and then do you coach? Like, tell me more about that.

  Speaker 2: 2:56

  What I do with my community. I just started my community in January, so technically I already had a podcast community, but I recently rebranded to be Inner Van Ass Reborn because I created my community where I host events. Right now there's still smaller events, local, technically networking events. My community is mainly women Everyone's welcome but it's mainly women who are entrepreneurs, business owners, aspiring entrepreneurs or business owners or musicians, and in this community my goal is to just empower women and give us women that are like too much or too loud or have felt like we're not enough or, you know, have been told these like outdated stigmas and been like given this identity. That's really not who we are.

  Speaker 1: 3:43

  It's just really a safe place for everyone.

  Speaker 2: 3:45

  Like I say unleash your inner badass. It's just my way of saying step into your power and show up authentically. That's like what I live by If we're not living authentically, we're not living right. So my community is really just a safe space for women you know, whether you're aspiring or you're already an entrepreneur to come and get support and share ideas. My most recent event I did a self like a self-care slash business event where it was like a business brunch where I brought a bunch of entrepreneurial women from all different fields, like we had hairstylists, we had podcasters, waxers.

  Speaker 2: 4:20

  We just had so many different people. Philly hype woman, who I love, that's what she titles herself Philly's Hype Woman.

  Speaker 2: 4:26

  We had a lot of different badass women come together, totally different businesses, totally different ideas and we just sat and we ate together and me myself and another speaker spoke to these women and we had brainstorming sets for all of our businesses and it's just really this community. That is starting small, but I have like really big plans for it because I just want to give women especially you know, not just locally like one day I want to host virtual events where people from all over can come and join us. So it's definitely in beginning stages, but this community is for all badass women.

  Speaker 1: 5:02

  That's so cool and just being able to host local events. So you're really tapping into a sense of community and genuine connection, because while you're talking about virtual events and getting there, there's so much pushback on virtual events post pandemic where people are like no, no, no In person. I want to see the people in real life and hug them. If that's your thing, right. That's so cool and to be able to have a place for people to be themselves and to share the struggles and the joys of entrepreneurial pursuits.

  Speaker 2: 5:34

  Yeah, I love it.

  Speaker 2: 5:35

  For me, like I talk about Driftwood a lot on my show and, just you know, at my events, even I talk about Driftwood often, because Driftwood is a term that I learned from Gabby Bernstein and it's basically you see someone else's success and instead of looking at yourself and comparing your own success and where you're at in your journey, instead of, like starting to allow negative thoughts to ruminate, you actually see another woman's success, even if it's in exactly what you want to be doing, and you feel empowered by it and you feel inspired by it.

  Speaker 2: 6:05

  What you want to be doing, and you feel empowered by it and you feel inspired by it. And I truly being at this point in my life where I am fully, authentically me and confident in who I am, even on my bad days, I am so lit up by seeing other people do what they love, whether it be, like I said, they could be a hairstylist, like looking to open up their own salon right or go out on their own. They could be. It could be a waxer, it could be a motivational speaker, it could be, you know, an author, a musician. I just love being around women who are just defying the odds and just no longer letting society tell them who they're meant to be Right. So that's like everything that I do in my motivational speaking and the events and with the podcast and with this book that I'm working on getting published. It's really all about personal development in all of its form.

  Speaker 1: 6:53

  So okay, you said the term driftwood. I haven't heard that before.

  Speaker 2: 6:57

  So I heard it from Gabby Bernstein, maybe like two years ago. She's been like my spiritual teacher from afar. She doesn't even know it, she is very spiritual and she has achieved so much success. She talks about this term. It's driftwood is essentially you see someone else's success and instead of feeling like any negativity around it, we're starting to compare yourself. Or if you start cause we're all human and we all compare it's just what happens, right, you just flip the script and you say, wow, that's like a sign that my time is coming. My version of what I'm looking to achieve is coming, so my version of success. This is like the universe sending me a sign that like, okay, this girl just had a really successful event. That's like a sign from the universe for me that my book is gonna get published or a publisher is going to reach out to me, something like that it reminds me of what is the other term expanders.

  Speaker 1: 7:50

  That's another one that I heard recently from a good friend of mine, as far as, like, if you are wanting to do this thing and it seems like out of your realm of capability, it's not something that you, it's outside your zone of genius, if you will and it's like, oh man, I don't know if I can do this. This is a lot, there's a lot to get there, and then you meet someone who looks like you and does similar things as you and they're doing that thing. That's an expander. So you learn, like this thing that I didn't think was possible is actually possible and that gives you the I don't want to say hope, but all of those feelings and the drive towards like, hey, okay, I'm giving this thing a shot.

  Speaker 2: 8:26

  Yeah, and it gives you that good feeling, emotion, like we truly we can't accomplish anything without attaching ourselves to how we'll feel after we accomplish it. Part of my daily routine is connecting with my goals. One of my goals that I write down has to do with the podcast every day, and I really connect to how that, like I feel as if it's already happened. And that's what driftwood is. It's getting us into the state of mind where we feel the gratitude, the joy of achieving that thing already.

  Speaker 2: 8:57

  Because when we can connect to what we will feel when we get there, it's like us showing the universe whatever you believe in God, whatever that's out there that's bigger than us, right, it's like us showing this is what I am reaching for. And instead of reaching for that other mindset, right, where it's like, oh well, how did she get this? Or she had this handed to her, you know, like starting to get away from that lacking mindset and go into abundant mindset. That's how we achieve our goals. We can work tirelessly for the rest of our lives and never get to where we want to go if we don't align our thoughts and behaviors with where we're going. So that's essentially why, like Driftwood has just hearing that term and I tell everyone about it now, like I had and have for the last two years, because it's changed the way that I think about everything.

  Speaker 1: 9:45

  When you have that understanding of how important mindset is, how important the, what does it say? Where your focus goes, your energy flows, I love that. Okay, so podcast is called Inner Badass Reborn and that's also your community, right? So you kind of rebranded. Have those all together. Does the podcast or community? Does it have an origin story? Does this have anything to do with your like rising from the ashes? Oh, hell, yeah, tell me the stories. I want to hear all about it, please.

  Speaker 2: 10:11

  Oh, hell yeah. So from age like 16 to 21, I was in a very abusive relationship Just a brief backstory for my childhood Like my parents this is not to talk bad on them, I love them both but they were really focused on my brother and didn't really think they needed to worry about me because I wasn't the problem child, so to say, and so I didn't really get the parental guidance I needed. I wound up being put out on my own at 16. I was like in my rebel state of mind anyway, so I was like whatever, hell yeah, you know I can do this Right. And I was kind of wanting to be as like a fuck you to my parents, show them that I could do it, because I was just like you know what.

  Speaker 1: 10:50

  It is what it is.

  Speaker 2: 10:51

  And so I went through a really dark time in my life, you know, was with this person, who he's the definition of a narcissist like not this modern day like, but the true hardcore narcissist, and I allowed him to just do awful things to me and treat me in awful ways, and in that, I lost who I was. I went from being this bold, badass version of myself to not even knowing who I was and to feeling like so negative and being so close-minded and constantly focused on lack. And after going through so many years like that, I had some really horrible experiences during that time and in 2017, I started to get this like inkling. I'm like okay, I know, I need to leave this. I need to figure this out. I have no support.

  Speaker 2: 11:36

  At that time, I had lost most of my friends being in this, and so I'm like where do I go from here? And I just kept taking like little baby steps to better my life. Eventually, I was able to get a townhouse I was renting it, but I was able to get my own foundation. I didn't put his name on it, like I let him move in with me, but it was near my family where I grew up.

  Speaker 2: 11:56

  I was like building my roots and slowly but surely was like getting myself away from him reading personal development books, reigniting this fire inside of myself. And I say I had this mirror awakening.

  Speaker 1: 12:09

  I woke up one day and it was literally.

  Speaker 2: 12:11

  I woke up one day, but it was years in the making.

  Speaker 2: 12:13

  It didn't just happen overnight, right, but it was a one day thing where I woke up and I was like same routine. Got up, went in the bathroom and I was looking at myself in the mirror and I'm like this is not it, this is not as good as it gets for you, and like literally saying this to my. I get chills every time I tell this story because I feel like I'm back in that moment and I'm so empowered by it every time I tell this story, because I literally looked at myself in the mirror and I was like this isn't it, dana, this isn't you, this isn't the life that you were meant to live. Right, you were made for more, and it was the first time since 15 years old that I had felt this feeling like I am put here to do something and it's not this and I don't have to stay with this person, I don't have to be in this abusive relationship. And I took this little, tiny bit of responsibility that led to everything that.

  Speaker 1: 13:01

  I'm now living.

  Speaker 2: 13:02

  It was in that one moment, I mean within two weeks I got him out of my house. Within a month I had a protection order against him. I really woke up, like the blinders came off and I finally saw what my life was and slowly but surely got on this healing journey, started growing right and just started reading and I went to a couple personal development conferences and really went inward. I spent so much time alone but, like for the first time, my life didn't feel lonely. I was alone but I felt like connected to something bigger than me, and that's how I wound up on this journey. And now you know the that I wrote the work that I do.

  Speaker 2: 13:40

  it's all for that younger version of me because I know so many women out there are having and living that experience right now in their own version of it, and so everything that I do is for that reason.

  Speaker 1: 13:51

  Do you feel like the mirror moment? You said it's years in the making and the lead up. What got you into reading, like personal development books, ways of improving yourself. Was there a person or something that you read somewhere that, like, started you on this path? That then led to finally like, oh my God, I looked in the mirror and knew that this was not what I wanted for myself.

  Speaker 2: 14:12

  I'll say I was living in hotel rooms for like a month or two. It was like the lowest point in my life and the person that I was with was also a drug addict, so he was in like really active addiction and it was bad. He was like very paranoid, all the things, and I just remember sitting there writing in this journal. I got from the dollar store just writing quotes and like how I felt I found my love for writing again, which made me find my love for reading again. I can't remember who the first author was that I read, maybe Jen Sincero. I can't remember what the book was, but I went to the bookstore literally the next day, like I was sitting in there writing in my journal. The night before the next day I went to the bookstore and I was like just browsing.

  Speaker 1: 14:51

  I'm like I'm going to find something that can help me.

  Speaker 2: 14:54

  And I went to the nonfiction section. I found a book and I read it and it wasn't like life changing. The book wasn't life changing, but I got some confidence out of it.

  Speaker 1: 15:03

  And then it was like little by little and it wasn't all at once.

  Speaker 2: 15:06

  Like weeks went by and then I would go search for another book at you know my break at lunch when I wasn't with him, so I had my free time right. I would just little by little keep reading and every time I read another book it ignited something else in me and it clicked. Everything that I was reading, I'm like I feel like I already know this stuff, like I feel like it's already within me. I just forgot.

  Speaker 1: 15:31

  Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Okay, so how was it trying to leave that relationship? You know you mentioned it being abusive, mentioned the person being in ours. It's like that's really hard.

  Speaker 2: 15:36

  It was a lot. I mean, he stole my car. He was like pawning my stuff. It was crazy, very chaotic. They know how to play on your empathy and it got to a point where I was like you can literally take everything that's in that house, that's mine, I don't care. You can take all of it Not my car, obviously but you can take everything inside of the house, but you need to leave.

  Speaker 2: 15:57

  And during those two weeks of me like officially getting him out, I was in and out, right, I was just going to work and then staying out as late as possible and then going home, sleeping, going back to work, keeping myself occupied. But, honestly, the years leading up to that were so suffocating for me that those two weeks, the chaos that that brought, was nothing compared to the life I was living. And so, although it was hard, I felt free, even before I got him out of my house. It was like I literally cut that energetic cord and I get chills talking about it, because I felt like there was just something bigger than me holding my hand along that way, like I didn't have anybody, I didn't have friends, I didn't have family, like my family, totally outcasted me, I was on my own but I never felt more free or empowered in my life.

  Speaker 1: 16:45

  That's a really powerful story and to have cultivated such a strong sense of self-trust, a strong relationship with yourself because that's a big part of this where you're like I didn't have a support system. I had to be my entire support system. I knew the best thing for me was to get out of this situation. You'd grown to the point where you're like all right, I trust me to make these decisions and be able to take care of myself. You talk about a lot of authenticity and taking back your power, and part of being able to take back your power is one, knowing you have it in the first place. Two, trusting yourself. And three, knowing what the hell you want, Because that's part of that, too, where you're talking.

  Speaker 1: 17:26

  So many years being in a place of feeling like you were suffocating, being in an unhealthy relationship on so many levels with this other person, you lose sight of what you want, you lose sight of who you are, what you like, and that's something that taking you out of this relationship. So lose sight of who you are, what you like, and that's something that taking you out of this relationship. So many people that I talk to I'm going to say women, because I work mainly with women. The relationship with ourselves often starts with those questions of like well, what do I like? We've been doing this same routine and going through these motions for so long.

  Speaker 1: 17:51

  But do we actually like eating five egg whites for breakfast on a piece of, like, whole grain toast? That's super bland. No, fuck, no, I don't, it's gross. Okay, well, what do I like? And then you're able to explore those pieces. Or like I've been dressing the same way for a decade. Do I actually like that? Do I actually like getting up at 5am every day? Do I actually like these things? And being able to ask yourself like is this the person I want to be? Are the things that I want to do? Do I like them? Because that relationship of being like here are my likes and dislikes, here's the person I want to be, and that's like.

  Speaker 2: 18:23

  That other piece of liking and disliking is like your values got called into question and you're like not living in accordance with my values it was literally all that all at once and I think that's why it felt so freeing, even in the midst of the chaos, because I had this like new hunger and like thirst to just live, to really live. Like I felt like I had been asleep for five, six years, however long it was that I was with him, like I felt like I had just woken up from a five year slumber and just had like this little like grip of who I was and I was so excited to find out, like more about me, right. And, like you said, I was like well, I know what I don't like, but what do I like? Do I like you know, wearing that, my style?

  Speaker 1: 19:06

  is totally different than it was, then I'll tell you that, right, and I stopped wearing makeup for like years.

  Speaker 2: 19:11

  I just started wearing makeup again, and it's 2024. I left him in 2018. It's been a good while and it's because I think it was just like I had done so many things to like please, everyone else, especially him and it was like the most fun experience to like when you find yourself again. You yes, you have to go inward and you have to be okay with being alone right. Because you want to be able to attract the right people into your life.

  Speaker 2: 19:35

  You don't want to attract another narcissist right, you don't want to attract another person who's going to inevitably betray you in some way, like you want to get good with yourself so that you can live a life you want, and I think it was so bad for me that that was so clear. I took myself out on dates. That was a huge thing for me on how I could get comfortable being alone.

  Speaker 1: 19:57

  It was very uncomfortable.

  Speaker 2: 19:58

  People would look at me like why is this girl out by herself on a Friday night at the bar? But I loved it. I made it a routine every Friday after work I would take myself out to eat and it was how I got comfortable being alone. It was the first time in my life that I ever could have like the balls to go out and go to a restaurant by myself and sit by myself at a nice restaurant, right, and I think it's just really important for anyone listening.

  Speaker 2: 20:21

  If you find yourself in a place where you feel lost, you're going to feel lost multiple times in life. That's just a part of living. You know. You go through seasons of your life and some seasons are harder than others and I've definitely been faced with am I being true to myself? Am I making myself smaller to make myself more digestible for other people? And I have to do those check-ins with myself even after so long. And I think it's important for the listeners to get like only you can decide who you are. Only you can decide what you're worth, and there's nothing more empowering than stepping into that. Agreed.

  Speaker 1: 20:54

  I want to talk your thoughts on. Can I thoughts on self-love and the relationship with yourself. But one thing I want to say before this and I'm laughing because it's such a current super deep rabbit hole of mine that I get really excited about it. So let me set the context for you. With Sturdy Girl, a lot of my solo episodes are on body image, on self-confidence and resilience, and I try to make it as evidence-based as I can. So I love reading body image, on self-confidence and resilience and I try to make it as evidence based as I can. So I love reading body image research and a lot of body image research is based on acceptance and commitment therapy as a modality, and acceptance and commitment therapy has its basis in a lot of Buddhist principles and so naturally I have been down an absolute Buddhist rabbit hole recently.

  Speaker 1: 21:37

  I am not a religious person, necessarily, but reading about these principles in Buddhism I'll tie this back, like with relationship to ourselves. A lot of the conversation around Buddhist principles and I should say, the book I'm reading right now there's a lot more about Buddhism that I don't know and I'm not going to pretend that I do the conversation of cultivating the skill to be able to sit with your own thoughts is huge. When we talk about any level of self-acceptance, let alone getting to know ourselves, and you talking about being able to go out and go to places by yourself, have dinner solo, that comes first from being able to sit down in an empty room with just your thoughts and there are. I'm going to butcher the studies off the top of my head. There was a study done where it was more or less like you have the option to sit with yourself or administer a mild electric shock, and more than half of the people chose to administer a mild electric shock to themselves. That is how disconnected we are from ourselves.

  Speaker 1: 22:37

  And so when we talk about all of these things to improve our lives, let's say like big picture, it starts internal. It starts with being able to sit in that internal world, and if that place is not a safe place to go to, is not comfortable in a lot of ways, then we're going to avoid it. And then we're going to seek those things that we need from ourselves and other people, and that's going to further things. And then we're going to seek those things that we need from ourselves and other people, and that's going to further things. So this is an absolute tangent and I'm probably butchering like if anyone's like Buddhist and listening to this and they're like, oh my God, jess, you've just ruined this.

  Speaker 1: 23:08

  But it's taking and reading things and then what you take away from it. But that internal world is so, so important when we go all the way up to because, right, if we think of this along the lines of levels, right, because we start out with kind of this level of like self-loathing, self-hatred, and then it's trying to build up from there. If we get to that self-acceptance, and then we're looking at, like, what is taking our power back, what does authenticity mean to us? And learning to be ourselves. And that comes from that place of self-acceptance.

  Speaker 2: 23:44

  And you can't get there without it. You can't.

  Speaker 1: 23:45

  It's funny because.

  Speaker 2: 23:45

  I call it a Dana kick in the ass. My listeners know I give. I give that very often in my talks and eventually I will, when I work with you, know one-on-one with clients. But I give advice in the most loving but blunt way because that's how I learned and I know that sometimes, when it comes to this work, we have to say is this way, or the highway, it's this way, or keep living the life you're living. Guys say you can either keep surviving or you can start living.

  Speaker 1: 24:03

  And the choice is yours, right, we get this choice.

  Speaker 2: 24:05

  Every day of our lives, we wake up, we get to choose, and you get to choose to do the things that are going to benefit you, or choose to live a life that is comfortable. And, to be real, I'm uncomfortable all the time. It's not in this negative aspect, right, it's not. I don't feel uncomfortable in the sense where I feel like I am not where I'm meant to be. I feel uncomfortable where I'm like anytime. I feel like I'm getting too in the groove.

  Speaker 2: 24:28

  I'm like I got to pivot a little bit because I'm not pushing myself, because if we're not uncomfortable, you're not growing, and that's why people don't like to go inward because it's scary. My husband has said this a million times.

  Speaker 2: 24:40

  It is intimidating seeing how much time I spend alone and my morning routine that I do is so extensive now because I've been working on it for years and you don't have to spend two hours a day alone. But I am saying that I am where I am today because of all the time I've committed to myself. That's what self-love is. Self-care isn't taking a bubble bath. Self-care is sitting with a journal and a pen and facing the uncomfortable shit that's in your head Because, look, I have some crazy things going on in my head right.

  Speaker 2: 25:07

  Sometimes, even still, I get triggered and instead of lashing out on my husband, I'm going to pull out that journal and by the end of that journaling sesh I'm going to be like, okay, that's definitely a little crazy end of that journaling sesh.

  Speaker 2: 25:17

  I'm going to be like okay, that's definitely a little crazy, but I feel better. It was a story I was telling myself. That's not even based on reality. It's based on a trigger that I had. And why was I triggered? Here's the root cause, and I tell everyone if you have no idea where to start, start with a journal and a pen and sit there and literally turn off your phone, turn off your computer and sit there until you gain the bravery and the courage to write something down and make that a daily practice. I started with five minutes. Now some days I'm journaling for 20 minutes because I have a lot to get out and it means that I'm not going out into the world every day just projecting all the stuff I'm holding onto onto everyone else.

  Speaker 2: 25:52

  And that's when real growth happens, when we face ourselves, and it takes bravery right. It's not easy, I'm not going to sit here and say it is, but the life you're living is not easy either. It's just you're comfortable in your discomfort that you're feeling because, to be real, your comfortable place that you're in it's not your best place. So how could that really be what's best for you? It's not, and so you can either choose to stay in this place that feels safe, but really your fear, like we should honor our fears.

  Speaker 1: 26:22

  That fear is in place to keep us safe, and safe a lot of times is that comfort zone, and I have talked about this book on literally every interview that I have done in the last few weeks. But have you read the Comfort Crisis?

  Speaker 2: 26:34

  I haven't. Who's that by?

  Speaker 1: 26:36

  Michael Easter, you've got to add it to your list. It's one of those that like, if there is one book to recommend, that is my book right now that I have just been like, please read this. Here you go. It'll change your life. And it's interesting too, like the sitting with the discomfort, because a lot of times people I'm really generalizing here the common conception of getting outside of your comfort zone is doing extreme things, and what we're talking about in getting outside our comfort zone is sitting with our thoughts.

  Speaker 2: 27:02

  It's the most basic things. My listeners sometimes laugh like they'll write into the hotline and be like you know, Dana, it pisses me off that you get on here and you tell us to do the same things, but once I finally started doing, these things that you tell me to do? They actually work and I'm like yes, see, yeah, you see, I'm not trying to talk, just to talk right, I'm giving practices that I have done.

  Speaker 1: 27:28

  And I do the same things today that I did five years ago.

  Speaker 2: 27:30

  That got me to where I am today, and I will do it five years from now, and I'll just tell you what my morning routine is. It's I move my body, whether it's an hour or 20 minutes, whatever works for me. I move my body First thing. I wake up at 4am to do that. You've been pregnant. I love that, though. I don't do it because I have to do it, because I get to and I love it. So for some people that's not that's not for them and that's okay, but for these next couple of practices.

  Speaker 2: 27:50

  These practices are for everybody and I say, if you tell me you're not a journaler, it's because you never tried and you're too scared to try. Every morning I do a gratitude practice. I actually created a journal that I sell that has all this in it, but I write down six very small things that I'm grateful for that happened in the last 24 hours.

  Speaker 1: 28:07

  So I can't write. I'm grateful for my husband. I can't write. I'm grateful for that. I'm pregnant, right.

  Speaker 2: 28:11

  I have to write something that actually happened that gets me looking for things to be grateful for all day rather than looking for things to be miserable about all day, and then I write down my intentions for the day. How do I want to feel, how do I want to show up today, and what are three things that I absolutely must achieve today for me to feel like I have been productive.

  Speaker 2: 28:32

  And then I write down 10 goals and some of those goals are within six months achievable and some of them are going to take 10 years, right. And then I do anywhere from five to 30 minutes of free writing and I drag mine out because I meditate and I sit there and I sip my coffee and I just really like it's a ritual for me.

  Speaker 1: 28:50

  But for people starting out it doesn't have to be extreme.

  Speaker 2: 28:52

  We don't need to do extreme things. Extremes never work. When you try to make everything in your life a big deal, then nothing's important right and you'll never be consistent with something that's hard to do. These practices are easy, you know you'll be consistent with them and that's what the journal I created is meant to do. It's meant to create a consistent morning routine that takes honestly, you could take 10 minutes to do this journal every day.

  Speaker 1: 29:15

  It's really cool that you created that. I love the thought of a gratitude practice because gratitude is one of those buzzwords Some people feel woo woo or don't tap into this. I had an interview last week with someone about this. She's a yoga and meditation instructor and so we leaned into just more of what gratitude actually is and I was like this for a long time. Where gratitude is just like what am I going to write Like I'm thankful for coffee, I'm thankful for my dogs, whatever? And it's understanding that truly, no matter what you believe the universe, a higher power, a singular God, plural gods, whatever when there is recognition of the insanity that is you existing on this planet at this particular time and space, it shifts your perspective on like. I read a story about someone who lost function in their hands in their 30s and suddenly the next day in my gratitude practice I was like these hands function and work for me and I am so thankful for the myriad of things that allows me to do. You know, pay my bills because I work with my hands.

  Speaker 2: 30:18

  It's because it brings you into the present moment, literally what you just said, not to cut you off, but, like gratitude, practice brings you into current day. For example, last week had the worst week, not not this week, but last week was like the hardest week for me. I was finding dead animals in my backyard left and right and I'm pregnant, so that's really sad and it was just a whole thing. It was one thing after another. I was having a horrible week and I still went and I found things to be grateful for every morning. And had I not had that practice, I would not have been present. I would have been a ball of anxiety all week. I would have had no outlet, right, I would have felt so triggered all day, but because I had these practices, no, I wasn't at my best. I'm not going to sit here and BS you like you're not going to feel 100% just because you did a gratitude practice.

  Speaker 2: 31:01

  But if it's, something you do every day. It equips you to handle the hard stuff in life. When tragedy hit my family in 2020, I was completely equipped to handle it. It was profoundly difficult. I was heartbroken and when I suffered a profound loss in my life very unexpectedly, but I was able to get through it because of these small things and people think I'm insane when I say that, but I'm like just try it and watch when the next time something hard happens in your life how much better equipped you are to handle that.

  Speaker 1: 31:30

  So two things, one being going back to like the journal practice where you're like the people who are like, oh, I can't do that or I've never been able to do it, or whatever else. One of the things that I talk to with clients is okay, if writing does not feel like something that is in your wheelhouse for writing out thoughts or feelings, voice memo, record it. If writing out complete sentences doesn't feel like your jam, make it single words, forget about grammar. Like let it come out, type it on your computer, like what makes it most accessible. I love to journal.

  Speaker 1: 31:57

  I've journaled since fourth or fifth grade but I went through a season where like writing was just not doing it for me and so I would record voice memos like I was talking to my best friend Not necessarily send them, because Lord knows she didn't need like a 17 minute voice memo every single day, but having that piece of like, if you're talking to someone who you know loves and cares about you unconditionally, because eventually what you're doing is you're saying these things out loud and you're understanding like, oh, I actually care about myself unconditionally, like the relationship with myself, you can come back around to that.

  Speaker 2: 32:29

  Exactly, and that's how you step into your power. I mean, I love the voice notes. I still use voice notes sometimes, even though I'm big on journaling, so I like to be able to go back. I labeled them therapy and I put the date. There's no therapist there, it's just me, and it's just sometimes like when. I'm in the moment and I'm feeling triggered, like maybe something my husband did triggered me, or at my day job I get triggered.

  Speaker 2: 32:51

  Instead of like reacting to that, I go and I make a voice memo and I let it out, and suddenly I'm like, and then I breathe for a second, I'm like wow, I feel like not a hundred percent but I feel better. Right, and it's just that little practice and it grounds us and then you realize you don't have to reach outside of yourself for that right.

  Speaker 1: 33:12

  You don't have to project, you don't have to react, you don't have to call your best friend frantically every time something happens, right, you can be your own best friend, you saying like, okay, my husband said something and it triggered on some level and you're like, what the hell? You gave space between action and reaction and that's a skill that is such a skill to be practiced. So, when you're talking about here all the things that led up to me being able to cultivate that skill, especially in a marriage, it's so huge, and I mean not just a marriage, but your friendships, every relationship in your life.

  Speaker 1: 33:36

  But it also works for yourself too, with noticing thoughts that come up and then you're just like, ok, hang on. That really made me feel some type of way, where did that come from? And made me feel some type of way, where did that come from. And so you're just the more you practice that. So that's what journaling does, is you're letting things come up, come out, writing them out, and then you're like, is that really true? Do I want that to be true? No, not really.

  Speaker 1: 33:54

  Okay, and moving from there, but shifting this for a second, where we've talked about just relationship with ourselves, so much you talk about self-love. From reading that I have done from some of the research and just from my understanding and how I coach on this, I don't talk a lot about self-love in the maybe social media mainstream kind of way that people think of self-love as like I love myself unconditionally, no matter what, in all the ways of all the things. Okay, actually I'm turning this to you, I'm not even going to it. Tell me how you define self-love, because I feel like we're somewhat on the same page of like our feels on this and so I don't want to project, so tell me.

  Speaker 2: 34:29

  Yeah, self-love to me, and what I teach too, is it's not this like delusional confidence in yourself. We're not the Lulu. Okay, I love to sit here and repost these memes that talk about being the Lulu, but at the end of the day, in reality, self-love is viewing yourself for exactly who you are. In this moment, I can show up and I can have a reaction, and I can have accountability for that reaction and say I still value who I am, I still know my value, I know my worth. It doesn't mean I'm a perfect human either. I don't like this version of self-love that we see on social media because it talks about using affirmations and you know, and I do like affirmations but we try to tell someone who literally hates themselves and we tell themselves to say I love you in the mirror and that's going to change their life.

  Speaker 2: 35:15

  You can't lie to yourself. You're not ever going to take that huge leap. It's not possible. I hated myself too at one point. Right, I started to love myself once. I gave myself the space to just fuck up. And you give yourself the space to just be who you are Like I wouldn't be here today if I didn't give myself the space to be a very triggered version of myself for a while. And in those moments I wasn't sitting here like delusional, like I'm amazing, because I wasn't, I had work to do.

  Speaker 2: 35:41

  But my core self, who I am at my core, my values, who I show up as, who I intend to show up as, that's self-love.

  Speaker 2: 35:55

  I love her, but I'm, in that, able to say, okay, I love myself, but I'm also always going to hold myself accountable. There's a big thing on social media right now where everyone is like, as soon as they get in a relationship with someone, if they, if they have like one red flag or they do one thing wrong, oh we'll screw them on to the next one. And I don't believe in that, because imagine yourself, you look at yourself and you make a mistake and you suddenly believe you're a horrible person. That's why we have a world living this way in relationships right now, because you're not a horrible person because you made a mistake, you're going to make a thousand mistakes. You can still love yourself through them while holding yourself accountable. I think we're in a state of that delusional self-love versus the real self-love where you look at yourself in the mirror and you see we all have flaws and those flaws make me who I am and I love myself because of my flaws. My husband loves to remind me that.

  Speaker 2: 36:38

  I have an attitude and I used to literally hate that about myself, but that makes me who I am. And guess what? That attitude is not for everybody. I am not for everybody and I teach my listeners self-love is knowing you're not for everyone and being cool with that. As long as you know you are showing up as a good human, you're not going around being an asshole to everyone, then that's self-love, right? Self-love isn't I'm going to pretend that I'm happy and positive all the time, even when I'm not. That's actually the opposite of self-love. That's doing yourself a disservice, going around in the world being someone that you're not 100%.

  Speaker 1: 37:13

  Sometimes I feel like talking about loving yourself can be triggering to people, and so in the first season of Sturdy Girl, there is an episode called Do you have to Love Yourself? And ultimately, the answer is no. You can have a healthy relationship with yourself without that love. And I think a lot of what you're describing, too, is that self-compassion piece being able to look in the mirror and, yes, you are accepting of yourself as a human, but you're holding yourself accountable because that self-compassion piece of yeah, okay, I'm tired, therefore I need to go to bed earlier versus I'm tired, but I'm going to modify this workout that I wanted to get done instead of skipping it completely, because I'm holding myself accountable, and I think that both and of the self-love is unconditional in the piece of and this is something that I still have trouble explaining to people is that view yourself like you do your best front. You aren't going to discard them after one mistake. You recognize that they're going to have bad days If you so I think about these voice memos that you record for yourself.

  Speaker 1: 38:12

  If your friend sent you that voice memo and they're like I had the absolute, freaking worst day. This happened, this happened. I said this, I was an asshole to this person. I did this. You're not going to listen to that and be like, oh my God, you are a terrible person, I and be like, oh my God, you are a terrible person, I don't even like you, let alone love you anymore. No, you're gonna hear that and be like shit, you did have a really bad day. I'm so glad you were able to share that with me. Like you know how you would respond, thinking about that in terms of how you talk to yourself, how you respond to yourself, and that's a lot of what that self-love and compassion piece is in working on that relationship. So I really liked your description too.

  Speaker 2: 38:46

  I just think that so many people hear self-love and they're like oh, like I don't even know if I it's because they're so far from that Right. Like I truly can say I'm at a point in my life where I do love myself, Like I am proud of myself and I'm my own cheerleader. Like I truly am at a point where I don't need anyone else to cheer. Like when someone else cheers me on, it's like I take it with a grain of salt, Just like I would take a criticism with a grain of salt. But it didn't happen. Like it took seven years for me to get here.

  Speaker 2: 39:12

  And I didn't get here by telling myself that I love myself every day. I got here because I was just like, willing to look at myself in the mirror period, Just look at myself for who I was showing up as, without sitting there and tearing myself apart every day. And I think what we're going wrong as a society is we're convincing ourselves that we love ourselves, even though we don't like a lot of people don't, but they're saying that they do right. And then we're expecting everyone else that's coming in and out of our lives to be perfect too, Because perfect is not real. But how we're viewing our quote unquote love for ourselves is like this made up version of what self lovelove is, and now we're projecting that onto relationships too. So I love what you said and I think it's so important to tell people like I've never thought of it in that way, Like you don't need to love yourself right now. It's about showing yourself that grace and compassion. I totally agree.

  Speaker 1: 40:00

  It's such a canyon between self-loathing and self-love, and so some people, they see that and they're like, well, how the hell do I get from one side to the other? There's all this space in between. Is it self-respect, self-acceptance, is it? You know, looking along those lines and maybe we never get to love, and that's okay.

  Speaker 2: 40:16

  I think it's too much pressure to be like you have to love yourself. I don't think on my show or in general, I've ever said you don't have to love yourself. I always just tell people it's. You're not ever going to love yourself overnight. But I love your perspective and the way you explain that, because it's so important for people Like I wish I had someone to tell me that when I was hating myself right.

  Speaker 1: 40:34

  It's powerful and that was a big turning point for me. I think in this whole. I call it a lot more like the body image journey, but it's also that like relationship of self journey. It was my therapist and she's like you don't have to love yourself. That's not ever what we're talking about. Can you learn to respect yourself enough to like, take care of your body? Can we talk about that? And that's where you start. She was like I don't care right now if you don't like yourself. I don't care if you look in the mirror like we'll get to caring about that, but right now I need you to understand that if you respect your body like your physical being, you're going to nourish it and you're going to take care of it and eventually that respect is going to extend into your brain as well. And that relationship with yourself and I was like, okay, I think I can do that You're streaming down my face.

  Speaker 2: 41:18

  I think that will help people like get there even quicker, honestly get to that self-love point and again, like you said, I think it's really helpful to say you don't ever have to get there. But from experience I know that having that mindset and taking that pressure off yourself, you can get there and you can get there quicker. I love that. Wow, I'd never heard anyone explain it that way.

  Speaker 1: 41:38

  I'm glad it was helpful. So question for you just since we have been talking about self-love as you have defined it, and those pieces, are there any kind of takeaways that you could give the audience on how you worked towards self-love or how you coach on working towards improving your relationship with yourself?

  Speaker 2: 41:53

  Yeah, definitely, I'm going to give small things again. Everything comes down to like the most basic things. First thing I would say do what I did and take yourself out to eat. I don't care, if you only do it one time in your life, take yourself out on a date. So maybe being at a restaurant might sound like too much for you Take yourself out to a coffee shop.

  Speaker 2: 42:14

  Take yourself out somewhere in public by yourself and not to Target. Okay, because we all know we want to all go to Target by ourselves, so our boyfriends or husbands or wives don't know how much we're spending money, how much money we're spending at Target, right? I'm talking about take yourself out on a date, get dressed up, make it a thing, right? Get dressed up as if your husband or your wife or your partner is taking you out and really be present in that experience Don't sit on your phone the whole time Give yourself like one hour.

  Speaker 2: 42:37

  take yourself out to eat Even if it's a restaurant you've been to before, it doesn't have to be something completely new. And how that helps self-love is just getting comfortable being by yourself. That's what that really is. And it's one thing to be comfortable by yourself at home. It's another thing to put yourself out into the world by yourself. It's like not even finding comfort. It's just learning how to be alone around other people without feeling lonely.

  Speaker 2: 42:57

  And then another thing I would say, which you're probably gonna laugh at, but one thing I do any day that I am having a hard day and I'm feeling not my best day that I am having a hard day and I'm feeling not my best, I put on an outfit, and it's almost always the same outfit that makes me feel good, because when I look good physically, when I feel like I look good, I feel better. So on my bad days I have an outfit that I wear like one outfit in my closet that I wear every bad day and I put on and they just make like I might do my makeup that day, I might do my hair. It puts me in an energy of feeling good and it doesn't. It's not going to make me love myself, but it's going to make me feel better that day.

  Speaker 2: 43:34

  Another thing I would just say on top of it doesn't have to be journaling, but dedicate 30 minutes to yourself every day. So if you don't like to journal, do the voice memo, the notes app in your phone, do a guided meditation, go for a walk outside without a podcast. Like I know, we're on a podcast. I want you to listen. But do go outside and take a walk without your phone If you live in a safe area to do so. And just 30 minutes, that's it. Everybody in the world has 30 minutes. I know people with four kids who have an hour to themselves every morning. So please do not make excuses for yourself, because as much as we want to show ourselves grace, we also need to hold ourselves accountable. How you can do that is dedicate 30 minutes in your day, every single day, to doing something to fill your own cup up.

  Speaker 2: 44:13

  And then just one more thing that I love to suggest to everyone is create a joy list. A joy list can contain something as small as having a cup of coffee outside on your deck as the sun rises, to something as big as taking a trip to Italy, and I always recommend putting this in your phone. I'm a big writer, but I love to put the joy list in your phone and you can add to it whenever you want or subtract from it whenever you want. But the beauty is, when you're having a hard day or you're starting to feel overwhelmed, you can pick something off that list to do that day. So it could be something so small, so simple, as like grabbing a coffee for yourself. That gives me joy A pumpkin spice latte. I'm so basic in that way.

  Speaker 2: 44:50

  That brings me so much joy. So that would be my last suggestion, because adding joy into your own life yourself and not expecting other people to give you that joy, best way to start to learn to care for yourself.

  Speaker 1: 45:02

  Okay. So three things. One, 100% hot in my like wrap up quick questions was going to ask you if you were a pumpkin spice latte fan, so thank you for answering that. Two, we call those coffees emotional support coffee. And three, this joy list piece. Oh my gosh, okay.

  Speaker 1: 45:19

  I talk about this so frequently with clients just in the context of when we get in funks Like there are a couple of Sturdy Girl episodes about this too of just getting ourselves out of maybe a rut or a funk or brain space that isn't supportive. Having that joy list, having those things where you're like what is something that brings me joy, what is something that, even if joy feels too big, is something that brings me a sense of contentment, a sense of happiness, even if it's momentary, like my first thing that comes to mind, it is so small. So one of my dogs is an Aussie and he has ears like velvet and I cannot tell you how many times that I am stressed or having a bad day or having the feels, whatever it might be, and slowing down and petting his freaking ears is one of those moments where you're like okay, maybe things aren't so bad.

  Speaker 2: 46:03

  All my joy list is cuddling with my dog, and sometimes I don't want to cuddle with my dog, sometimes it doesn't bring me joy, so I'm like I don't want to. I don't want to be around you right now I'm busy. But on those days that's exactly why I said put it in your phone. We're all attached to our phones. I don't care how evolved we are, we're all attached to our phones. And so I have my list in where I could, on my 30 minute break, go to a park really close and sit there for my lunch break, and that is something that, no, I'm not gonna feel like I'm the happiest person in the world, but I am gonna go back into the rest of my shift feeling just lighter than I felt. So, yeah, I love that.

  Speaker 1: 46:45

  Finding space in your day. You know you're talking like. Everyone has 30 minutes in their day and I have mixed feelings on saying that Like. I appreciate the intent of holding yourself accountable. I had a conversation recently with someone who educates on like social determinants of health and there are some people that are in a place where they work so much or have so many variables in their life that 30 minutes is like not even possible. This joy list for me and for how I coach my clients on it, is like it is creating the space in your life, even for those few moments of like I may be pet my dog's ears for like a minute, creating the space, even if it's just up here mentally to take a deep breath. It's that mindfulness piece, I think, is what I'm getting at. And if I say mindfulness, people are like right, it's another one of those words, but it's creating the space for you to just be present, be in your head without 7 million other things going on, to just say like.

  Speaker 2: 47:38

  I'm here, I'm in this moment, I'm okay, I'm safe. Yeah, it's just interrupting that train of thought. All it takes is that one, one minute to interrupt it. I could be spiraling, creating a story of something that's happening. That's not really happening, but I'm convincing myself that it's 100% happening. For example, if I'm having a bad day in the gym, I'll convince myself that everyone in the gym is judging me and no one gives a fuck about what I'm doing in the gym.

  Speaker 2: 47:58

  Like, let's be real. And so it's in those moments when you just you literally take one minute. You don't even have to sit there and breathe. If that seems too woo to you, you can just take one deep breath in and out and just sit there and remind yourself, like, okay, call out what are three things that I see right now that are blue. And you just you name that and suddenly you've interrupted that negative thought pattern and now it's, it's coming going.

  Speaker 1: 48:20

  They have a name for it, but it's like the five, four, three, two, one, right. So, like five, these, you Like five things. You can see four things, you can hear three things, you can touch two things, you can smell one thing, you can taste or something like that, right, you like go through. No, that's fantastic, okay. So I already asked you about PSL, or no? So we're there. Pancakes or waffles Pancakes. Okay, what do you put on them?

  Speaker 2: 48:40

  Blueberries in them and lots of syrup. So I'm like a child If I eat pancakes which I don't eat them often, unless my husband specifically requests them but it's drowning in sorrow. Make the pancake like a sponge.

  Speaker 1: 48:51

  Literally, it's soup. I love it. Okay, what is the number one book you've recommended or given as a gift?

  Speaker 2: 49:03

  It's not the number one book that I recommended because I've only just finished it, but I planned on buying everyone for Christmas this year. I'm not really splurging because I'm having a baby. It's called you Can Heal your Life by Louise Hay. I am buying everyone in my life that book this year and the reason being is because I will just say it's a very woo-woo book and it is. You have to have an open mindset. But every single practice, even if you only take one practice from this entire book, it can help you in the most impactful way on your growth journey.

  Speaker 2: 49:27

  I'm not going to say it's going to change your life because I don't like to put that big of a you know, commitment in there, but what I will say is that I think if everyone reads this book, they'll just start to view their lives differently. I have like a million favorite books, though.

  Speaker 1: 49:41

  We can talk more about this. I'm a big reader too. And then, talking about holidays, do you have any holiday traditions?

  Speaker 2: 49:53

  Halloween is my favorite day ever and season and just fall. I'm like a fiend. I love horror. So my holiday tradition for Halloween we go all out on our decorations and we love to give out candy to the kids.

  Speaker 2: 50:00

  I dress up, my husband dress up and we literally sit outside and give candy to the kids and we invite like family over so we'll have like drinks and all Halloween themed food, but then ultimately we all sit down and give out candy for a couple hours and then Christmas is like I do the seven fishes for Christmas Eve and Christmas Day. It always varies, but yeah, it's pretty much it.

  Speaker 1: 50:21

  That's fantastic. I slowly get more into horror, trying I'll read horror books all day long, horror movies I don't know why I just am like the jump scare is not my thing. My husband's a writer and he's working on a horror comedy right now and so like learning like horror. Okay, I got to get there because I got to love this movie.

  Speaker 2: 50:41

  So I will tell you, I was like five years old in the movie theaters watching horror movies.

  Speaker 1: 50:51

  So we went to the movies every weekend when I was a kid, and he would take me to see every horror movie. That's amazing. You knew your genre early. So on that note we'll wrap this up. My last question for you where can audiences find you to learn more?

  Speaker 2: 51:00

  So you can find me on Instagram, Dana Donnelly official underscore, and then I have inner badass reborn. That's the community page. I actually showcase and highlight women owned businesses, just women, badass women in general every Wednesday. So if you have a suggestion for a woman you would like to be showcased on the page, I would love for you to DM me and then you can find my podcast anywhere you listen at inner badass reborn and then my website is Dana Donnelly officialcom.

  Speaker 1: 51:28

  Awesome. Thanks so much for being on. This was such a great conversation, and let's share some book recommendations.

  Speaker 2: 51:34

  Yeah, I'm excited to keep in contact with you. I know we're very aligned on most things Agreed.

  Speaker 1: 51:39

  Okay, friend, thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you everyone for listening. We will catch you next Friday.

40. [Season 4] How to Build Mental Resilience and Embrace Body Confidence with Erin, Sports Psychologist

n this empowering episode, Jess speaks with Erin, a sports psychologist, who shares her journey from traditional therapy to sports psychology, highlighting her battle with body image and self-identity while in grad school. The conversation navigates the pressure of societal messages, particularly around body image and athletic performance, and how these often shape our self-perception. Erin encourages listeners to become more aware of these narratives and to challenge them by embracing more self-compassionate and constructive perspectives.

A focal point of the discussion is the transformative power of mindfulness meditation for athletes. Erin explains how it helps individuals stay grounded, manage anxiety, and respond to situations thoughtfully rather than reactively. This practice strengthens self-awareness, making it easier for athletes to maintain focus and adjust when faced with challenging emotions during their performances.

Together, Jess and Erin also explore the importance of building sustainable habits and resisting perfectionism. By focusing on the identity we wish to embody, rather than just end goals, we can nurture resilient behaviors that align with who we want to become. Emphasizing curiosity and acceptance, Erin illustrates that understanding our own triggers and habits can lead us to a more fulfilling and self-compassionate mindset, in sports and beyond.

Connect with Erin HERE.

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• Full Transcript

  Speaker 1: 0:09

  Hello, friend, and welcome to Sturdy Girl, a podcast focused on strength, not size, where you will hear conversations around flexible body image, cultivating confidence and being a resilient human in both body and mind. Sturdy Girl is the podcast where we shift the focus away from your appearance and on to living the big, rad life you deserve. Hello, friends, and welcome back to another episode of Sturdy Girl. I am so stoked with the series of interviews we are along the ride for during the season. But today's guest we have Erin, joining us. Thank you for being here. I feel like I've already gotten to know you a little bit just with. We had a little pre-chat a couple weeks ago. But introduce yourself, Tell me a little bit about what you do.

  Speaker 2: 0:52

  So excited to be here. I also I was so happy to have found you. I'm like, oh, we could be friends. So my name is Erin she her pronouns.

  Speaker 2: 1:01

  I am based in Minneapolis, minnesota, and I am a sports psychologist. That's kind of the quick and dirty version. The somewhat longer, more moderate version is I went to grad school to become a traditional therapist psychologist. Really liked research, really liked health psychology, really struggled with self-care while in grad school and like body image and self identity, figuring out who I was, like being.

  Speaker 2: 1:23

  I had just gotten out of a big relationship and so I was single for the first time in a long time in a new state in grad school, and so then I started running for self-care. So that was in 2009 that I started and I have since done a bunch of marathons. And then I got the triathlon bug, and then I got the cycling bug and I raced bikes for several years and now I'm returning to running and cycling after eight years. So I'm a sports psychologist and a very avid endurance athlete who has done a lot of work with especially just female athletes girls women, also a good amount of work with trans and non-binary athletes, and so my day to day is really one on one meetings and sessions. Think of mental health therapy for athletes. So it's like therapy. But we put that athletic identity front and center a lot of the time because it takes up so much space in our lives as athletes.

  Speaker 1: 2:12

  So that's me. I love that. What a great rundown. I don't have a good, let's say, elevator pitch, if you will, of who I am and what I do, and yours was so well versed and concise, that's like the short-ish version.

  Speaker 2: 2:24

  It's taken me a long time to get it, and some days are better than others when I share it, so well done.

  Speaker 1: 2:30

  Okay. So you started school with mine to be a therapist, and was it interest through classes you were taking or personal experience with running, like what shifted things for you to be like all right, we're working with athletes. This is my jam.

  Speaker 2: 2:43

  Yeah, when I was younger, in high school and in college, I didn't plan on being a therapist and I remember my own therapist when I was in high school was like you're really insightful or something where she's like you'd be a really good therapist someday. And I kind of latched onto that information and I was like, okay, psychology, maybe I'll go in that direction. And so then I did that for undergrad and then I'll never forget, I was sitting in my advisor's office as a freshman or sophomore must have been as a freshman picking classes for the next semester and I had been told that biology of women was like quote unquote easier than the general bio one and two. Because there was a really big nursing program at my school where I went to college and I was told it was pretty demanding and I've never been a huge fan of bio. And she looked at me and I told her this and she's like do you want to go to grad school? And no one had ever asked me that question. I had never really considered it and I was like, well, I guess so maybe. And she's like, then you should take general bio one and two. And I was like, okay, I guess that's what I'm doing and who likes to be a doer of all things. I like to try new things.

  Speaker 2: 3:45

  I became a stats tutor, I joined a research team, I started teaching lab classes in psychology and they encouraged me to apply to grad school. I was like, well, I don't want to do something where I'll be pigeonholed, where, like being a therapist, for example, where that's like the one thing that I'll be doing. I want to have a lot of different options, and so a PhD in counseling psychology was a good option for me, because then I could go the academic route if I wanted to, and be a professor. I could just do research. I could do a lot of different things. And so it was in grad school. Then I assumed I'd be a professor, and then my postdoc was in health psychology, helping med students with self-care and then researching their self-care, or lack thereof, and how they dealt with stress and quality of life. And then I started working with more athletes. And then I fell in love with sports psychology and I also had an opportunity to teach an undergrad course in sports psych. I was like this is really cool.

  Speaker 2: 4:39

  Then I did the professor thing for I don't know a handful of years four or five years maybe, and then started sports psychology part time and fell in love with it and then eventually had to let go of academia altogether because I just couldn't do both anymore. It just wasn't sustainable, and so I started sports psychology practice, I'd say 2018. And then in 2020, I went full time and then in 2023, I left the group that I was practicing for and then started my own business. So now I'm technically a one woman operation. I'm kind of the only one in client facing roles, but I have a couple of people who support me behind the scenes with emails, marketing, content development, research, things like that. So really it's been an accidental journey. I've just really followed my intuition, my energy, my passion along the way. Never thought I would be where I am today and I'm loving it. It's really cool.

  Speaker 1: 5:33

  That's awesome, though, and especially, too, it's like the exploration piece. You know, hearing like, okay, I was interested in this and this is how I got started. But as you went along and you're like, okay, like this better, no, we like this. And then having those experiences and being able to make those, I say pivots, right to be able to say, actually, it's these areas that interest me, and now to have your own business and be doing what you enjoy and love and get fulfillment from on a day-to-day basis right, which is so cool, especially like when I was in a professor and then when I was in group practice.

  Speaker 2: 5:59

  It was kind of the generalist where I would see all athletes, all sports sports all ages and levels and whatnot. And now I have more of kind of a niche, which has been super cool because now I can really lean into that and then all of the clients who come to me feel like they're the perfect client. So I work with almost all women and girls, some trans and non-binary athletes, and then most of my sports are endurance. So I've got rowers and paddlers, I've got runners, whether ultra trail runs or like track and field or cross country high school I've got cyclists, triathletes.

  Speaker 2: 6:31

  Nordic skiing is huge in Minnesota so I see a lot of Nordic skiers, cross country skiing as well. So it's really cool because it's just a different mindset, with kind of that exercise induced pain that we deal with and kind of the mental blocks and the pain cave, and so I'm able to really lean into that niche of endurance and then gender as well, which allows me to dig deeper into, for example, like perimenopause and that transition and changes in body shape and body composition and what that brings up and how that affects mental health Right, and so it allows me to go that much deeper in the areas I'm most passionate about, and it makes my work that much richer and better along the way. That was awesome, okay.

  Speaker 1: 7:09

  I know that we had put a poll on social media to pick a topic on what we want to focus on. But before I dive into like what everyone voted on and we chat about that, I wanted to just ask a little bit more about like with the endurance piece. I call it a gritty mindset when we talk endurance, like are there any tips? Like little bits that you give?

  Speaker 1: 7:31

  A lot of our listeners are endurance athletes. I have like equal parts endurance athletes and like powerlifters Awesome, right, yeah, but you're thinking about that endurance piece. Having competed in endurance events and competed in things like powerlifting, there's such a different mindset in both. They're both hard, like I'm not saying powerlifting is easy, it's not where you can go out for hours at a time. Has a different mindset than like all right, I've got this one rep max, I'm getting on the platform. I have one minute, you know, and you do that nine times in a day. Versus like how do I keep going and deal with the shenanigans in my brain Because that endurance, there are so many stories that we tell ourselves or so much of that self-talk piece or so much of those things that play a part in your performance.

  Speaker 2: 8:12

  Sorry, I'm like going off on a tangent it's so, it's so important and, honestly, the tip that I kind of use you can use for like powerlifting as well. So the thing that I always say is all too often we trick ourselves into believing that this next event that we're going to have is going to be a really good one or at least we hope that it's going to be a really good one and we conveniently ignore the pain and frustration and angst and worries along the way, like we don't plan for it. And part of that is our culture of being like manifest positivity, just think positive, just be confident, and so we feel like we're unintentionally screwing ourselves if we think about some of the worst case scenarios or what could happen. So I'm very much a realist and so what I say is as an endurance athlete let's say you've got we'll just say a half marathon and it's a race. If you are running to your maximal potential or your abilities, how would most people feel at mile 10? They're going to hurt, right. They're not going to feel good at mile 10 out of 13 if they really are truly running to their potential and pushing the pace, because at that point the fatigue starts to really settle in, your mind starts playing mind games with you. You're like I don't know if I can hold this for another 5k, maybe I should just ease up.

  Speaker 2: 9:20

  All of that stuff starts, and so what I always say is plan for it. So then, when it shows up, you're like okay, this is the part of the race where I want to quit, or this is the part of the race where I want to slow down, or my brain tells me to just ease up and I'm not going to do it. So you basically plan in advance, and in therapy we call it like cope ahead, and it's a skill that we use for like emotion regulation and distress tolerance. This is no different, it's just in the race setting. So then you bring that to weightlifting or powerlifting Same thing. Let's say you're warming up, you're doing a couple of easier lifts to warm up for maybe the final set or the final max rep, and then it's like, okay, this is the part in the day where my brain starts telling me I'm not going to make the lift or I'm too fatigued or I just don't got it.

  Speaker 2: 10:03

  Whatever the case may be, you normalize it because we know that our brains are trying to look out for us and they like to be that like over helpful friend that's not actually helpful and giving us all of these worst case scenarios and like, well, you should be careful you might get injured. Don't do that, but be intentional with those decisions. For exercise induced pain. We know within reason you can dig deeper pain. We know within reason you can dig deeper. But within reason, push yourself. It should feel hard, that's okay. Don't expect to feel like a superhero. If you're two thirds of the way into the race and you're really struggling, chances are you're doing it right.

  Speaker 1: 10:32

  Yeah, it's embracing discomfort, knowing like, okay, if this is going to be uncomfortable, how am I going to handle the discomfort? That's a skill set to be learned and practiced and I mean that's the half of what I was saying like training your brain as well as training your body. It's not supposed to be comfortable. You're not supposed to be loving life two thirds of the way through a race.

  Speaker 2: 10:51

  Right, you plan for it. And so then what I do with my athletes is say OK, what does your brain tell you? What are the stories that come up? I'm not good enough, I'm too slow, I'm too fat, I'm too old? There's usually you're too much of something or you're not enough of something else. What are those stories? So when they show up, then we just name the story. Okay, I've heard this story before. This is the like I can't climb story. I'm not a climber. As a cyclist, there are so many stereotypes about do you look like a sprinter? Do you look like a climber? Right, what if you can also be an all-arounder and do all of those things moderately? Well, it's trying to kind of let your brain play in the gray area. We just like labels. Our brain likes to be black and white. It's easier, it's more efficient, but it's not always serving us, and so it's being able to kind of embrace those nuances and get curious with the stories underneath those sayings and the things that we say to ourselves.

  Speaker 1: 11:38

  Where did these things come from. I think that's a conversation I've had a lot with athletes as far as like the runner who starts lifting and then they're like I'm not strong enough. Should I squat twice my body weight or deadlift this much? What am I aiming for? And you're like it's not that piece. It's not that you're not strong enough. That's another conversation we're having. You're not trying to be an elite power lifter while also running marathons, right, that's not the goal here. That's not the goal here. What are you hoping to get out of strength training? We are avoiding injury, we're maintaining muscle mass and, yeah, we're building strength. But do you want to deadlift 300 pounds? Like that's not a measure of you being a better person, but it's so interesting what we put on ourselves.

  Speaker 2: 12:19

  Yes, we put a lot of pressure on ourselves. And then there's those other worries of, well, what if I bulk up, or what if I get too big, or what if I slow down because I weigh more, because I have more muscle mass, like all of those things. And it's like, well, what do you actually want in being an athlete? What are you looking for? It's embracing those nuances and being willing to ask the questions but then to like ask back instead of looking for one right answer.

  Speaker 1: 12:36

  Okay, question along these lines, though, as you are returning to running and you're coming back to these things we have done work on body image, we have done work on self-confidence, on those pieces, on those mindset, but do you still get that little voice in the back of your head? You're not the runner you used to be and you're like, hey, excuse me, no matter what we do it still creeps in Totally, even like as a sports psychologist who teaches this stuff.

  Speaker 2: 12:59

  Yes, I still deal with all of these things.

  Speaker 2: 13:01

  I still have negative self-talk Like that inner critic is still there, and a lot of it is because of, just like sport, diet, culture and all of these gendered assumptions that people make about what an athlete quote unquote should or should not look like, and we internalize them just whether we want to or not.

  Speaker 2: 13:16

  It's like a fish here. It's like the water that you're swimming in, it's the air that we breathe. We can't get away from it, but I think the key is to be aware of it and then to just name it when it shows up, because we also know, like the more that, especially for women, the more that we internalize all of these messages about what our body should look like, and the more that we internalize the like be lean, you know, and that a runner is supposed to look a certain way, the more likely we are to engage in disordered eating. The worse the body satisfaction is, the more their body surveillance where we start, like checking ourselves in the mirror how are my clothes fitting? And so we have to be willing to let go of those messages in order to actually find the sense of self worth as athletes, instead of looking to these external cues of like well, do I look the role or do I look the part? Because then we're just cheating ourselves.

  Speaker 1: 14:02

  Well, let's continue this conversation Because this is the resounding answer from our audience. When we placed that poll on social media was talking about tools to support body acceptance or how to respond to that negative self-talk and that internalized messaging around appearance, around weight. Let's keep this conversation going, because that is you speaking gender specific. Because I am in a female body, I can't speak for men, but the messaging for women in our society is wild and even if you're not reading direct headlines, you are watching TV or movies with women who embody a certain body type. You watch movies from like the early 2000s. I rewatched the Devil Wears Prada not too long ago. It was like Anne Hathaway and she talks about. She came in as a size six and they were calling her fat and too big and she didn't fit in anything when she started working at this fashion magazine Right, and then, like two thirds of the way through the movie, she's like I'm a size four, so suddenly she's so much thinner and it's more acceptable.

  Speaker 2: 14:56

  And she's like in, like she's made it.

  Speaker 1: 14:58

  Yeah, yeah. And so it's like, even if we don't necessarily have like the direct thought process of oh, I saw this model, that's what I'm supposed to look like. Oh, this headline says this is what healthy looks like. We see bodies every day. We see what's promoted in movies, tv shows, magazines, billboards, all the things. Yep, it's all around us.

  Speaker 2: 15:18

  Yep, I think there are so many different tools and the thing that I always think about is think of a tool belt or even another analogy is like a chocolate chip cookie recipe. Like we always start with the Nestle Tollhouse yellow chocolate chips recipe on the back of the bag because we know it works, and then over time you can change the recipe based off of your preferences. You can add more or fewer chocolate chips, you can add peanut butter or nuts or oatmeal, right? So think of all of the sports. Psychology stuff is really similar and, frankly, coaching and performance, it's similar. Different things work for different people. So with any of these strategies we talk through, if it doesn't work for you, that's okay, try it again in a different context and stay curious about it. But not all of these things will work beautifully. And then some of them you might be like whoa, that worked right away and it was amazing. So I think one of the most important pieces is recognizing, like when we tell ourselves these stories, we have to recognize that society has taught us and shown us these messages. So it's not our fault that we feel this way about ourselves, because sometimes there's this self criticism or shame of like I feel like I should da da, da, da da. Well, like, not necessarily if you've been swimming in all of these messages about what a woman should look like and so understanding, like when we are always kind of surveying our bodies and checking in. Technically, it's just another form. It's self objectification, it's body objectification. We're looking at our body from the outside and judging it and seeing it as an object. So, as athletes, it makes sense because our bodies are also tools, right. But it's like focusing on, rather, what it looks like as opposed to what it does, and that's a really important distinction. And so it's really important to recognize we're not actually helping ourselves if we're just focusing on what our body looks like and kind of picking it apart, because we're reinforcing all of these messages that society has been giving us anyway. So what does this look like on a day to day basis? I think it can be certain things like, and it also depends on your social network. It depends on your personality kind of your skill set and what else is going on in relationships.

  Speaker 2: 17:15

  Knowing what your triggers are is really important. I'm a huge fan of doing a regular social media audit where I scroll through. Anytime I see a before and after photo I unfollow, even if it means that person is, you know, was living a quote unquote very unhealthy lifestyle and had maybe a lot of difficulty and health concerns and was seen as obese or overweight. And now they've lost all this weight and now they're wonderfully healthy. Like, nope. I'm not going to fall victim to some of those messages Kudos to that person for being healthier, but I don't want to praise them for being in a smaller body. Like. That's just not a message that I want to internalize. So I unfollow on social media or even the like fit inspiration, fitspiration hashtags and fitspiration accounts Finspiration, nope, unfollow. So that, I think, is a really important tool because I know for me personally, that is one of my triggers of being like okay, well, how do I compare to so-and-so? Have I gained weight? Do I feel softer now? Am I less lean? And those messages aren't helping me Understanding that being able to have conversations with people about body talk is huge.

  Speaker 2: 18:18

  I think often we do this as women to each other as well. We'll be like you look really tired today, are you okay? That's body talk. We're focused on that person's appearance and judging them and evaluating them based off of that. Is that actually helping us. Or like wow, your arms look so good. What have you been doing lately? It's meant to be a compliment, but it's reinforcing these messages of the looks and what is seen as a good body or like an attractive body. Do we want to compliment our friend? Yeah, but it could be like wow, I love the way that you're carrying yourself today. It looks like you feel really strong. What have you been doing lately? Focus on the feelings and focus on the person, not on their body or their looks. So be willing to have those conversations so that when someone comes to you and they're like you look such and such, or like oh, I feel so fat today.

  Speaker 2: 19:05

  Right, being like I feel uncomfortable when we talk about bodies or we focus only on bodies before feelings or personality, characteristics or strengths or accomplishments. So like, can we change up the script? I'm working really hard on it. Are you willing to work with me too? So I think that's a really helpful tool. Is just that assertive communication? And then the final one. There are more, but the final one I'll stick with and then we can kind of go down whatever rabbit hole you'd like is naming the story, and so this is like when I see something in the media or someone says a remark of like oh you do you work out, you look like an athlete, or any sort of body talk that might trigger me is I just name the story and I'm like okay, here's the diet culture story. This is what athletes look like story. I'm familiar with this story. I know how this goes because by naming it, you're acknowledging it and then you can work toward accepting it and choosing how you want to respond. So lots of potential tools.

  Speaker 1: 19:55

  No, those are all fantastic. You were mentioning, like us, learning our triggers. That is such a rabbit hole in and of itself because it takes time and effort. So when you're giving tips on a podcast with something as big as this, of talking about body acceptance and talking about internalized messaging and those things, it's not just a oh my gosh. I listened to this episode and I got these tools and now I'm great. It's having to practice and it's trial and error and it's taking time and, like you said, with a lot of the tools, it's you try something out and you see if it works, but you try it again and again, like it's not just going to be a single time thing. And I think that's really important here because learning triggers, learning body image triggers, learning those pieces of oh, this called into question, like my sense of self, okay, those take a lot of time to learn because that awareness piece of even knowing that it's a trigger Until we start noticing the repeated messaging, we can just suddenly be like, oh my gosh, I'm hating on myself so much and I'm really uncomfortable and I can't look in the mirror in these clothes and all of a sudden it's this spiral, yeah.

  Speaker 1: 20:52

  And you're like how did I get here? And it was because one of your friends, when you were out in a group, made a comment about how fat they feel and they're six sizes smaller than you are, or something. And then you're like well, my God, what does that mean about me? And you started down this path? Well, I'm never wearing this outfit again because it obviously looked terrible. And if they think they're you know, and you just start that spiral and it's such a hard thing to teach, is that awareness piece of just start paying attention to your thoughts more? What does that look like? What does that feel like? What do you start saying to yourself when people bring up conversations and you're like that's diet culture.

  Speaker 1: 21:25

  Okay, this is like the thin ideal coming out. This is like the society's deception of like perfect beauty. Okay, well, guess what? If you look back through history, how much have ideal women's bodies changed? One decade it's having a really small waist and a really big butt. Another decade it was looking like a tube of toothpaste and being flat everywhere. Another decade it was having like the most conical boobs possible. It just depends on when you were alive for what the ideal is. What does that mean for us? Well, it means there's not actually an ideal. So how do we like have that?

  Speaker 2: 21:55

  conversation. Right, it's so hard and I still like I catch myself with it pretty regularly, like just the other day. So I'm dog sitting for a friend right now and I took her dog for a run yesterday and I was like I took him running, we did great and we only did 10 minute or 1030 pace, though, and just by that she called me on it and she's like hey, that's like the sprinting pace for some people and I was like thank you for checking me on this, and that was just yesterday. And then I think of a few months ago I was at a conference. It was for like a female athlete conference and they had all the speakers together the night beforehand and they had hors d'oeuvres and cookies, desserts, things like that. There were a lot of extra cookies and one of the moderators or kind of directors was like feel free to take as many as you want. And I said something along the lines of oh, I shouldn't take more than something because then I'll eat them all.

  Speaker 2: 22:50

  And like at this female athlete conference that we're all talking about body image and the importance of strength, and like what we're doing and how we're modeling these things for the next generation. I'm still falling susceptible to these messages, but the piece that is so important is owning up to it and learning from it and then not blaming yourself for it, because I think it's easy to get really defensive and being like, no, no, no, no, I didn't mean it that way, if someone says something, but no, we've got to have these, we've got to call each other in and have these conversations, and being like, oh my gosh, it's everywhere, because then we're more aware of it, we can normalize the conversations and then we can start to challenge all of these assumptions and messages in society.

  Speaker 1: 23:23

  And I think too to your point about just that like, oh no, I shouldn't, because then I'm going to eat all of it. That is such a strong, strong, internalized message of like I'm trying to think of how to even say this for it to make sense, because it's something that I have noticed over time when you interact with women, even if you don't necessarily mean it, it is something to say in the moment instead of just no-transcript, and it's something quote, unquote, normal that someone would say. And it's such a weirdly internalized where maybe you don't believe it, but that message has been repeated so many times that it comes up.

  Speaker 2: 24:37

  I see it often of like oh, I can't keep sugar in the house, I can't keep cookies in my house. So I think this is a really important piece of diet culture that has a lot of links to gender and confidence, especially because diet culture kind of caters to these quick fixes so one. It makes money off of our dissatisfaction with our bodies. These quick fixes so one. It makes money off of our dissatisfaction with our bodies. So let's note that. But then what it does is it kind of like sells to you by pulling on those emotional strings of like you don't conform to what bodies should like. So let me help you. Here's how to do it. And then how to do it is like keto or intermittent fasting or whole 30 or paleo or whatever it is, whatever the trend of the year is or the season, and people may see results short term and it's not sustainable because of the restriction needed to follow all of those regimens or diets. And so then what happens is we quote unquote fall off the wagon and then quote unquote fail and then go back to like regular eating patterns and then gain weight and then see ourselves as unable to like self-regulate or self-control and we see ourselves as the problem of like I just have to try harder, I just have to be more motivated. But then it decreases our confidence and our ability to stick with it. And then we also know, with diets, people are more likely to gain weight with each diet, and so then it's this reinforcing cycle and then you're more dissatisfied with your body and then you try the next one, and so it's trying to break those patterns and being like no, I'm not.

  Speaker 2: 25:56

  And for me, I'm just really stubborn and defiant sometimes. So I'm like I'm not falling for your messages. Nice try. But I think that's one of the best things that we can do is being like actually, I really am comfortable with my body. Some things I love about it, some things I don't. It is what it is. I'm not going to try to change it, not for you. If I change it for anyone, it's going to be for me. Thank you very much. That's body acceptance, exactly so. I think we don't have to love our bodies. I think we should respect them and, in my personal opinion, diet culture and falling susceptible to it is not how I respect my body. That doesn't.

  Speaker 1: 26:27

  No, but the messaging around it is so strong I mean, that's a big part of that is these repeated diets as well. So it worked for so-and-so. If it doesn't work for me, like I failed, I've tried all these other things. Well, maybe this is the thing we're always looking for those answers, and just keying into the messaging around.

  Speaker 1: 26:43

  How much money industries make preying on our insecurities, preying on our desire for this ideal look or body size or appearances. It's something that we can read a line in a book or a magazine or an article or a report or something and you're like, oh yeah, I know there's so many industries that make money off of me. And then, when you pull back and you look at the weight loss industry, when you look at, like cosmetics not that there's anything wrong with wearing makeup or anything like that, but cosmetics are to alter our appearance in some way. Don't get me wrong. I got mascara on, I put filled in the bald spot on my eyebrows because I just like a little symmetry. That's fine.

  Speaker 1: 27:21

  But then you look at all these other pieces of the quote unquote beauty industry, wellness industry. How much money is being made off of our desire not to get wrinkles, to cover up gray hair. Get rid of cellulite. My gosh, I remember middle school and like being so worried about cellulite that I was like buying these coffee scrubs and stuff with my babysitting money and my mom's like what are you doing? What is this?

  Speaker 2: 27:44

  But it's wild One thing I always say about like cosmetics, I like hair, I like makeup, I like doing my nails, I like wearing jewelry, like wearing cute clothes. Right, I always ask myself, like, am I doing this so that I can feel like more creative or to express myself as a person, or am I doing it to try to conform to certain standards? And that question is usually really helpful for me at helping to kind of differentiate. So, if I can be more creative with like nail polish or clothes or eyeshadow, great. Or am I doing it because I'm anxious about a presentation and I want to look the right role? Or, like you know, it's trying to kind of get curious with what's driving me to do this right now. Do I really need to do my hair? Do I need to get rid of my grays? Right, there's not a right or wrong answer, but it's just being mindful of how much money they make off of our dissatisfaction.

  Speaker 1: 28:29

  Absolutely. What are we making this mean about ourselves if we're like, oh, I'm feeling pulled to do this thing, well, why? Right? Yeah, there's such a huge part of that. I love that you keep using the word curiosity, because that comes along with that piece of awareness that we've talked about, I have talked about on so many different Sturdy Girl episodes, because it is really the most important starting point to work on our mindset, to work on our relationship with ourself, with behavior.

  Speaker 1: 28:56

  Change, like all of the things, is just being able to pay attention to something non-judgmentally. And so that's like with my coaching clients. My tagline for Everwild Performance is stay curious, get gritty. And that curiosity piece is so important because you're saying I'm not leading with judgment. I see this workout on my schedule for intervals and I am feeling some type of way about it, but I want to get curious for what I am capable of and how I can challenge myself and get out of a comfort zone. What does this look like? Instead of like, oh, I don't feel very good about this and I'm like feeling some type of way and it's going to be really hard and I don't know if I'm good enough and I'm not going to run fast enough and I right.

  Speaker 2: 29:36

  I won't be able to do it.

  Speaker 1: 29:37

  Yeah. Instead you're saying, hmm, what are we capable of today? And so I found myself recently I leave little notes next to either like the workouts or long runs as people are building up for a couple of people running ultras in the next couple of months One of the things I've started saying unintentionally, but it's repeated itself like please lead with curiosity and carbs. It just keeps coming out because, in addition to training our body and training our brain, we have to train our stomachs when we're running ultras or any kind of endurance events. And so I'm like I like this curiosity and carbs.

  Speaker 2: 30:07

  Yeah, that's also the same. Curiosity can be so helpful when it comes to our self-sabotaging behaviors. I'll use myself as an example. I often procrastinate with workouts, and so getting curious about it has been really helpful and really important for me of being like okay, what is it that is postponing, or why am I avoiding this workout in particular? What's going on here, versus the days where I just come home and put on my running clothes and do what I'm assigned, which goes so much more smoothly. But that's not every day, and so it's like being like okay, am I stressed because I feel like I have to get more work done and work is more valuable than my workout. Is it I have a difficult workout and I'm afraid I won't be able to do it? Is it that I don't like the feeling of running at a certain pace or biking at a certain wattage or power? Just what is it about this? Am I avoiding? Because we also know in general, as humans and like a lot of my work as a sports psychologist is helping people understand as humans we are really good at avoiding difficult thoughts and feelings. It's very natural. It comes naturally.

  Speaker 2: 31:08

  We are taught to do this from the start. When we cry. Parents comfort us in an effort to get us to stop of like no, no, no, no, no, what's wrong? What's wrong Like, because they don't want us to be upset Right. And so we get this message that being in distress is a bad thing. We get a message that stress is bad. We get a message that anxiety and depression are bad. But again, those are judgments and depression can be like. That's a little bit different. Anxiety, in a lot of ways, can be really helpful and constructive, especially for performers, for athletes. We need a healthy amount of anxiety to really perform at our best. But when we feel the butterflies in our stomach or our heart racing or our stomach flipping or having to go to the bathroom a million times, we're like this is bad. I'm not supposed to feel anxious. So it's like slow up and get curious about it being like okay. So actually, if this were a shape, what would the shape be? If this were a color, what would it be? Name the anxiety, bring it with you.

  Speaker 2: 31:59

  And so I think it's similar where we just have to be careful with the judgments that we're making, because often it's some sort of avoidance. We're avoiding this thing that's going to kind of prompt or trigger difficult thoughts I don't know if I can do this or I'm not good enough or difficult feelings, shame, guilt, anxiety, depression, loneliness or isolation All of those things might come up in sport, because we're testing ourselves, we're pushing ourselves, and so I think for me, a lot of the avoidance with workouts is I think it's double-sided Some of it is me feeling like I should be working because that's what I've been awarded for over the years of like you're such a hard worker, so I get that reinforced. And then it's also avoiding the difficult feelings and sensations of threshold intervals. It's like they're not really fun but they're important. So, yeah, so that's a bit of a tangent, but I think a really important one is we have way difficult thoughts and feelings and we just need to own up to it.

  Speaker 1: 32:54

  It's the resistance piece because that, even simplifying it more from like athletic pursuits, behavior change, habit formation, yep, there is a resistance. I mean I'm going to like simplify this all the way down to like my day to day as a dental hygienist. Yes, when.

  Speaker 1: 33:07

  I have conversations with patients around brushing twice a day, flossing daily. I don't talk to them from a place of shame or guilt or you know why aren't you flossing daily? As adults we've heard it since we were little kids we know what we should be doing, but there is a reason why we're not doing the thing, or reasons plural and so that is like the most basic thing that I talk with patients about is that it's a habit. What is the resistance, what is the friction that's happening for us to not be able to do the thing, in this case, flossing. Okay, we don't really like it Most of the time.

  Speaker 1: 33:39

  Most people are like well, I'm just too tired at the end of the day. Okay, is there another time of day that it works better for you? Where can we build that in? What kind of resistance? What are we saying to ourselves? Is there a bowl of flossers next to your coffee pot? So when the coffee's brewing in the morning, you floss your teeth? Do you take vitamins every day? Do we pair it with that? Do you throw it in the shower? Like, where do we create an environment that makes the thing happen? Reduce the friction. But it's also it's that curiosity piece of what's the resistance? Like you said? Why am I avoiding this? It's very interesting as a hygienist, just in the smallest thing of a habit like flossing that takes a minute of our days, that patients give me the weirdest looks because they're like. I have never thought about it that way. It's just this thing that I don't like doing, that no one likes doing, so I just avoid it and I know it's important.

  Speaker 2: 34:26

  But that knowledge, the gap between the knowing and doing right, so that's just where, like that, going all the way up to workouts and runs and all of those pieces to what's like the short term versus the long term, gratification and like the payoffs right, because, like flossing, most people aren't gonna be like oh, I feel so good, that was awesome. Same thing for like mindfulness meditation, because I also continue to struggle. I go in ebbs and flows. Some days I'm really great, some weeks I'm great, some months I'm great, others nope. And one of the reasons, I believe, is in the moment it doesn't feel like you're getting a lot of bang for your buck. You're gonna be like, okay, I sat there quietly and reflected on my thoughts and my feelings and I noticed them non-judgmentally and now I'm aware of them. Awesome, what does that actually do for you? We know in the long run the benefits are incredible.

  Speaker 2: 35:15

  And if there's like one sports psychology tool that I would want athletes to use, it would be mindfulness meditation, because the research is so clear but it's hard to do as a habit, because in the moment you're like why am I doing this?

  Speaker 2: 35:26

  This feels pointless, because we don't in the moment feel that like immediate benefit Running or lifting or getting really good workout in.

  Speaker 2: 35:33

  Often we've got those endorphins and so then that helps kind of pick up habits and stick with them, whereas like flossing, mindfulness, meditation, other things, mobility or foam rolling or other types of PT. You're not feeling really great when you're doing it and so then it's hard to motivate yourself to continue. So then we have to look for other strategies like habit trackers, visual I'll do stars on a calendar so you can reward yourself like elementary school. There's nothing wrong with that. We like visual cues as humans, so you have like accountability buddy, so there are different ways that you can kind of gamify it. But I do think it's really important is asking yourself that like who do I want to be as an athlete, as a person, and what would that type of person be doing for habits? And that's kind of like James Clear talks about that in his book Atomic Habits. Like start with your identity and who you want to be as a person and then reverse engineer that.

  Speaker 1: 36:21

  I don't know, are you familiar with Karin Norden? She's a PhD, does a lot with behavior change, so she talks a lot about that identity piece of. Ok, if you're working on these habits, if you're wanting to do certain things, you need to first ask yourself what kind of person do I want to become? Who do I want to be? This future version of me, what do they do, what are they like? And then, yeah, reverse engineer that. Ok, what, what do my daily habits look like? To be that person, what does that mean for me? And letting that guide actions to say, okay, well, what would future me do in this situation? Well, future me wants to run a 50K, so I probably need to be pretty consistent with my running. Future me wants to run this race injury free, so that mobility piece is really important, but going okay.

  Speaker 1: 37:07

  So, going back to the mindfulness meditation, which just thank you for talking about, because, sad tangent, I have read three books now on Buddhism in the last like month because and you'll, you'll appreciate this acceptance and commitment therapy principles have a lot of ties to Buddhist principles, a bunch, yep. And so I was like, all right, I got to learn more about this. Yes, so the talk about awareness. Awareness is part of that mindfulness meditation piece and so I just I've been nerding out really hard on those things. But two pieces to that. One, as athletes, as endurance athletes specifically, there is a personality type of people that tend to get into endurance sports, where movement, movement is really important to us to keep ourselves moving. And, like you said, endorphins, those things when we slow down and we sit still and we sit still inside our heads, yep, and we hate it and we're like what the hell are we doing right now? This is awful, yep, it reminds me. Have you seen Inside Out the Pixar movie?

  Speaker 2: 38:03

  Not yet and as a therapist I'm ashamed to admit it because it's all about emotions and feelings, and I've heard that the anxiety one is really good.

  Speaker 1: 38:11

  So, yeah, the second one's in theaters right now and my nieces, who are like six and seven and a half, just recently watched it and they're like we got to learn what anxiety is and what does delusional mean. And you're talking all these things, but talking about mindfulness and being inside your own head made me think about like the control center with all the emotions you know, like that's, that's such a piece. So, oh my gosh, watch it. Report back. I love kids movies. So like when they come out, I'm like, yeah, that sounds awesome, it's so good. But what I was going to, where I'm leading with this of mindfulness and meditation, what are some of the benefits? Because you said you've been like nerding out on this a little bit recently. So, yeah, tell me some of this so we can like encourage our listeners to at least consider incorporating this.

  Speaker 2: 38:51

  It is a game changer. So the benefits are if I were to summit or summarize the benefits, it allows you to respond to difficult thoughts, feelings and situations rather than react. So it creates more space between the thing that might be triggering you and how you choose to respond to that thing because of increased self-awareness and a lack of judgment. So basically, it helps you slow down and be less emotionally reactive and more even keeled and grounded. It also helps with self-awareness. It helps with emotions, like identifying and naming emotions. And so what does this mean for endurance athletes? It is so good because what happens is and I'll just say, a lot of athletes will start, a lot of people will start, and they'll be like I suck at meditation, I keep getting distracted, I can't focus on one thing, and to that I say that's the point is to notice your thoughts and get distracted. And then, when you get distracted, you notice it and you bring yourself back. And every time you notice it and you bring yourself back. And every time you notice it and you bring yourself back without beating yourself up non-judgmentally, just like I'm from Minnesota, so I make fun of like oh there I go again. You catch yourself and you bring yourself back Each time you do that. That's like a rep the more reps you get, the more intuitive and the more natural it starts to come to you. So then what can happen?

  Speaker 2: 40:07

  I'll use last night as an example. I was driving a friend home and I'm in Twin Cities. So we've got highways and you know, on ramps, off ramps, someone just like cut right in front of me coming onto the highway and I could have easily in the past gotten really angry and triggered and reacted, or maybe like tailgundam or whatever, and instead I laughed and I was like well, you're having a day, aren't you Like? It allows you to step back and not react to these situations as strongly as you might otherwise. So how does this apply to athletes, especially endurance athletes, though I would argue all sports for sure, endurance athletes we've got a lot of time in our heads in general. So then what can happen is we can notice when we're going down an unhelpful rabbit hole and we can catch ourselves and we can bring ourselves back home. And by back home it's like what is my pace, how is my feeling, how's my hydration, how's my body feeling? And then you can respond to that information, as opposed to going to those dark places and not being able to pull yourself out. For other athletes, like I think of weightlifting, powerlifting, especially in regulating the nervous system, you've got to be revved up in order to get those max lifts. That's why you'll see some people like jumping or yelling or hitting or slapping themselves. It's to get that nervous system going.

  Speaker 2: 41:20

  Mindfulness meditation helps you understand where you are and where you need to be and basically being like I'm not revved up enough, like I need some more something to get me going in order to lift this, and so then you're able to hype yourself up and be your best type person. Or, like a start of a race, jitters are going wild. You know you're really anxious. Mindfulness can help you in that moment of being like wow, I'm really, I'm really anxious right now, without freaking out about the anxiety. So then you're just noticing the anxiety and just being like oh, that's interesting, haven't felt this in a while. The anxiety and just being like, oh, that's interesting, haven't felt this in a while. Or you can just name it and being like well, this is the time of the race where I start to get really anxious and I feel like quitting. Everything's going according to plan. So you basically just learn how to notice patterns and then respond appropriately. Yeah, meditation is awesome.

  Speaker 1: 42:04

  And it's. It's an ebb and flow thing. It's you get good for a while and there's days, weeks, months and it slows down and it's not. We're not talking about. Okay, this needs to be a daily thing, every single day of your life. We're human and we recognize that's such a huge part of this as a practice.

  Speaker 2: 42:19

  Exactly. It's no different than like PT or mobility or these other habits that we might try to pick up, or like having a recovery drink after a workout or taking creatine, oh my god, why is taking creatine regularly?

  Speaker 1: 42:31

  I don't understand. There's no resistance to it, there's no anything. It just is all of a sudden oh yeah, creatine.

  Speaker 2: 42:37

  Okay, I'm just going to do this again.

  Speaker 1: 42:39

  I have gummy bear like creatine gummy bears right now and now I remember because I'm like I want some gummy bears.

  Speaker 2: 42:46

  Yep, so those are out and that's like all those little hacks is like, okay, how can we do it with the least amount of friction possible, so that it's as easy as possible? And so you can do that for meditation, like that habit stacking. You know you can do it during certain times a day because then your brain is like, oh, this is when we meditate. You can do it with an app and push notifications. There are all these different things that you can try, but I say like, just try and then if it doesn't work, like it's, you can. If you drop a habit, it's.

  Speaker 1: 43:13

  Is there anything else along the lines of body acceptance or appearance or internalized messaging that you want to touch on at all? I know we've kind of like we've deviated all over the place and I know our audience said they wanted body acceptance, chat, internalized messaging and I'm like, OK, was there anything?

  Speaker 2: 43:28

  else. One thing I'll say I'm sure you've talked about this on former episodes and it never hurts to repeat it a thousand times is for anyone who has a pair of skinny jeans in the closet the skinny jeans, not this, not the style and cut, but like the jeans that you used to fit into because you were 10 or 20 pounds lighter for the love of all things in your world and mine, get rid of them. Just be willing to let go of the clothes that used to fit you. Body grief is very real, and comparing our old bodies to our current bodies, and every time we hold on to these clothes with this like hope that we'll be able to fit into them again, we are not serving ourselves. And so, for one very concrete tip, go into your closet and get rid of the clothes that don't make you feel good when you put them on.

  Speaker 1: 44:13

  I had a personal stylist on a couple of seasons ago on the podcast, and one of her 2024 2024 style goal is to wear everything in her closet.

  Speaker 1: 44:21

  Yeah, and so it's helped her. Like OK, by the end of the year, if I haven't worn the thing, we're ditching the thing, and so that would be exactly those. Like what are we trying to achieve by keeping those smaller clothes in our closet? That's not what we want to strive for. It's understanding that our bodies change and they're meant to change. They're not meant to stay the same. And proportionally, things shift and you know, whatever else I'm not going to be the size I was in high school and there's nothing wrong with that. Doesn't make me any less of a person. It doesn't mean I failed. Let that shit go. And if you want to use like Poshmark and sell it or something, if that's like what you want to get some fulfillment out of, like saying goodbye to the thing, yeah.

  Speaker 2: 45:01

  Or like Madewell jeans, like they've got like a jean exchange, like reimbursement type of thing, and like there's a lot of companies that do that, or just donate to a really good cause. There's so many options, but if you haven't worn it in a really long time, just let it go. Wear clothes that make you feel good. I think that's so important.

  Speaker 1: 45:18

  That's half the battle, though. Sometimes, when our bodies change, there's the avoidance of putting clothes on or trying things on or doing that, and that's where one of the biggest pieces for as our bodies change is being curious on clothing, because it is such a mind game. When things change and you try to put clothes on and you're like I can't remember the last time I wore pants with a waistband but like zipping and buttoning, this is not fun Find the stuff that's comfortable. Or I will say, too, when we're like, wear what's comfortable, wear what makes you feel good and I'm trying to remember what podcast I listened to, but it was someone talking about learning to express themselves through the clothing they wear. So, like you were mentioning earlier, when you put clothes on because it helps you feel more like you or more creative, or feel like you're expressing yourself there is something to be said about.

  Speaker 1: 46:01

  I used to shop from the rooftops like wear the crop top, wear the short shorts, wear whatever you want, honestly, but like, when people want to wear something so let's say, the crop top or it's neon colors, when they're typically a gray and black palette they want to wear the thing. It's going to be uncomfortable the first few times they wear it, but if they feel like they're expressing themselves, that's the kind of discomfort that's worth embracing. I feel like there's a distinction there, because that that's kind of something that I've started getting a little bit curious about, because I mean, I'm sitting here in like bike shorts and an oversized t shirt, but, like I have been trying to get a little more curious with like, well, what kind of clothes help me feel like me? Or wanting to express myself beyond like wearing scrubs four days a week and workout clothes and running clothes and whatever else? When you go to put on the regular street clothes Okay, I still have shirts from college, I still have clothing that I've had for a long time.

  Speaker 1: 46:50

  You know you lean into like Costco fashion and stuff like that. Okay, well, how do I express myself? What feels good in this? And maybe a little uncomfortable at first, but hey, like this feels like I'm expressing me.

  Speaker 2: 47:00

  Yes, I once had like a design friend. I said something along the lines of oh, I wish I could wear that, but I can't pull that off. And she's like put it on, and you're pulling it off, that's it. And so it's like kind of like the whole idea of you want to pull it off, put it on, done, you're pulling it off, so try it done, done and done.

  Speaker 1: 47:20

  I think we covered a lot of ground. I was just thinking about your own journey through movement, exercise, triathlons, running, all the things. Do you feel like there was especially like with relationship to appearance and your relationship with yourself? Was there any one big thing that you feel like you had to unlearn, or one big turning point that was like, oh my gosh, I have been self-sabotaging the hell out of myself.

  Speaker 2: 47:44

  Yes, I have come a really long way. When I was younger, I really struggled with body image, especially middle school. I was always taller than a lot of other girls my age, and then the term that my mom always used was like big boned. I don't know, it's how I'm built. It is what it is. I'll never forget wanting to do dance or gymnastics and being told I was too big boned to do it. I had the same thing happen. It just guts me, and being like that's how young the messages were for me.

  Speaker 2: 48:11

  I must have been in like kindergarten or first grade at that point I was so little, and so I think what I've had to unlearn is there's no one body type for certain sports, like you don't need a certain body type to do certain things, and being willing to push back against that. And then also learning and unlearning and unpacking and accepting the stereotypes about what it means to be a cyclist or a runner or a triathlete, because I'll still get comments of, like you look like this or you don't look like this, what does that even mean? And so just learning how to unpack that and accept it and then being willing to push back on it. I think, as a feminist. One of the best ways to kind of push back against all of these messages in our culture is to just to take pride in my body and to accept it for what it is and to not buy into those messages. And so I think it has been a really long learning and unlearning process as someone who's still. I still bike and race competitively and I'm sure this will also come up with my running. I'm larger in stature and body size than a lot of the women in like the pro elite category, and so every time I tow the line at those races, especially if I know there's a hilly race, those messages come up. Because I've internalized this message that I'm not a climber because I weigh more, which is so relative right.

  Speaker 2: 49:20

  But even like virtual racing for anyone on Zwift, like they used to I don't know if they I think they may have since taken it off like the public main face page but you have to report your height and your weight for virtual racing, because with more muscle mass comes more power, and so like if I was putting out a bunch of power in a race and I said that I was 120 pounds, which I'm like 165, I would be schooling everyone and dropping everyone in the race, and it would be basically like quote unquote, weight doping, so.

  Speaker 2: 49:48

  But what they would do for accountability and honesty with this platform is they would publicize the heights and the weights of all the riders, and including the power numbers, just for data transparency, to prevent cheating. That makes sense. They would then bold and highlight the highest and lowest numbers in each field, and I can't tell you how many times my weight has been read in bold on that platform, because I was the largest, the one with the highest weight in the Peloton. So things like that, where that comes up for me, where I've had to unlearn it, and being like, yeah, erin, you weigh more than other women in this field and you push out a lot more watts and power than they do. So wait till you drop them on a descent or a diesel engine on the flat and then climbing might be their jam, but they're not going to be able to hold on to me once we get to the other side of that mountain. So it's just being able to remind myself of those types of things, because it still comes up at.

  Speaker 1: 50:39

  You know, in my mid thirties it's wild, I think about that for, like, weight classes with powerlifting too, exactly, yeah, and then competing within weight classes and then everyone's in awesome singlets and looking at bodies and those things too. But that's a big part of it.

  Speaker 1: 51:01

  So we work with it. Like I said, you know they're different. There's no one right way. Do what works for you, but in general, avoidance isn't really going to help us. I think too, there is a piece of that in that unlearning process of, okay, height and weight are metrics and, yeah, we have that internalized messaging from one of your kids.

  Speaker 1: 51:08

  I had the same thing I am not a small human being called sturdy as a kid I did gymnastics and ballet and then it was right around that pre-puberty, like 10-ish, that my ballet instructor was like you're excused from class until you can find your grace, was the comment made. But because I was in that weird pre-pubescent where you kind of bulk up a little bit before you grow, and that was like destroying to me, because then the teacher had a conversation with my mom how I was too big for class and I wasn't graceful anymore and all of those things. And it's just, oh, my mom, how I was too big for class and I wasn't graceful anymore and all of those things. And it's just, oh, my gosh, I'm just a human doing my thing.

  Speaker 2: 51:42

  Like I just want to try new things. So it's like reminding all of us speaking and listening like we all have our stories, we all have the skeletons in the closet, we all have our baggage. We've got to be kind to each other.

  Speaker 1: 51:52

  And there's a lot of that talking about the unlearning, a process of even like, bringing awareness around beliefs, beliefs that we don't even know we've had how we've grown up, messaging that we've received. The more that we pay attention to those things, the more that we're curious right just to bring this full circle the more that we can learn about ourselves, improve the relationship with ourselves and improve our relationship with how we relate to the world around us and not letting that messaging get us as much which, at the end of the day, helps the next generation of girls and women.

  Speaker 2: 52:20

  There's nothing cooler than that being able to like, slowly move the needle to see some of these improvements Exactly. Oh my gosh.

  Speaker 1: 52:26

  Thank you for such a great conversation.

  Speaker 2: 52:28

  This was so fun.

  Speaker 1: 52:29

  We can just keep going and going.

  Speaker 2: 52:32

  And do it again in the future. For sure?

  Speaker 1: 52:34

  Okay, a couple of wrap up questions just for fun. What for sure? Okay, a couple of wrap up questions just for fun.

  Speaker 2: 52:38

  What is your favorite kind of dessert? Ooh, tiramisu. I love coffee, so I'm a sucker for tiramisu, but I also love chocolate chip cookies but they have to be like soft baked.

  Speaker 1: 52:49

  Okay, yes, I need a little crunch on the outside and then soft the rest of the way through Cookies are, like I've said already, my favorite. Okay.

  Speaker 2: 52:59

  Coffee question how? How do you take your coffee? What's your go-to beverage? I do a lot of iced coffee, even in the winter in Minnesota when it's like negative 20 outside, there's something about it. So iced coffee, sometimes I'll add like a little bit of oat milk, but like the cold brew, that's kind of my jam.

  Speaker 1: 53:10

  I love it. Iced coffee all summer so far. I don't know how long it'll continue. Like stereotypical millennial, I need my like sweet little treat. That was every morning. Okay, what is one activity that brings you joy and takes your attention away from your body?

  Speaker 2: 53:25

  I've never seen myself as a creative person or artist, but I do love arts and crafts. I recently got back into crocheting and I'm crocheting a blanket. It's going to be so cool. I'm really excited. There's this thing. There's like a trend for crocheters, people who crochet with weather blankets where, like, they'll make a blanket and each row or line represents the temperature, the high, for that day, and so it's really cool because it's you know, it'll be like red in June and July and then it'll be like blues in January. So it's just a fun way to kind of mark the year. So I'm doing that for my training and so, like, lifting is one color, biking is another color, running is another color, hiking is another color, and so that has been really cool project. It's going to take forever and I'm hoping I will be done by the end of the year, but basically, whatever my workout is for the day, or if it's a rest day, that just will become the next line in the blanket.

  Speaker 1: 54:18

  And that's been a really cool, fun project. Ok, that's awesome because that goes back to the whole like gold star chart for habits and stuff.

  Speaker 2: 54:24

  It's like this visual reminder of my journey and what I've done for the year, especially because I got really burnt out from cycling and so there's going to be like a whole month in there of rest, which, as athletes, we're like don't fall off the wagon, like don't whatever. Too many messages about don't fall off the wagon, like don't whatever. Too many messages about don't rest. So there's a whole month that's going to be like one big block of one color and that's when I wasn't working out. And then it's going to start adding runs in the second half of the year, because I didn't start running until a couple months ago. So it's going to be really cool because it represents my journey as an athlete this year and like a lot of cycling and good amount of lifting, some hiking and then burnt out Okay, she was clearly resting during that month and then start adding more colors for the running and the training that I'm doing. So I'm excited, that's so awesome.

  Speaker 1: 55:07

  I learned to crochet when I was a kid and I have not picked it up in forever. Yeah.

  Speaker 2: 55:11

  That's so cool. I'm stoked. I'm going to do like a nerdy reel on Instagram about it or something, so it will happen.

  Speaker 1: 55:17

  Yeah, a little time lapse. Yes, all that Sweet. Okay, two more questions. One, what is the number one book you've recommended or given as a gift?

  Speaker 2: 55:26

  Ooh, okay, can I do two? Can I break the rules, of course? Okay, well, I guess I don't have to grab them or show them because people can't see Number one for any anxious achievers, perfectionists, high achievers, catherine Morgan Schaffler, the Perfectionist's Guide to Losing Control Really great book. And then the other one that I recommend most often is the Confidence Gap by Russ Harris. So Perfectionist's Guide to Losing Control is really great at looking at the gendered nature of perfectionism and how it's reinforced in our society and how it shows up, especially for women, and helping you understand it doesn't have to be a bad thing, you just have to manage it. And then the Confidence Gap is a acceptance and commitment therapy book written for just popular press, general public, with a lot of really great tools and tangible like tips that you can take to help with confidence but also to deal with other unpleasant emotions. So that's a win in my book.

  Speaker 1: 56:16

  That's fantastic. Last question where can audiences find you?

  Speaker 2: 56:19

  to learn more. Yeah, instagram is probably the best place. I also have like website mailing list. For sure, we're starting to get that rocking and rolling with a newsletter. So my Instagram is Scotty sport psychology. Scotty is S, k, a, d, I and sport is singular, not plural, so it's Scotty Sport Psychology. Email is hello at scottysportpsychologycom website scottysportpsychologycom, and you'll get a pop-up if you go to the website to sign up for the newsletter. We've got some exciting stuff coming out, so then you can be first on the list to get it.

  Speaker 1: 56:51

  Props, I'm working on a body image get started. Guide as my freebie for signing up for an email list, because that's like my goal before the end of the year is to start building that stuff out. My gosh, being a solopreneur man, there's so much to learn.

  Speaker 2: 57:06

  Yeah, especially going to grad school, for, like psychology, I never learned business or marketing or funnels or weed magnets or there's so many. I'm like it's been fun to learn. There have been a lot of like stumbles and failures along the way, but I'm here for it, learning new skills.

  Speaker 1: 57:20

  I feel like it teaches you a lot about yourself in the process, right, yeah, all right, friend. Thank you so much for a great interview. Friends, thank you for listening to another great episode and we'll catch you next Friday. Thank you, yeah.

39. [Sturdy Short] How to Stop Taking Life So Seriously

Jess had a little extra coffee for the episode and wants to tell you all the ways it's actually good for you to PLAY, to laugh, to stop taking life so seriously all the dang time.

As mentioned in the episode:
The Comfort Crisis, by Michael Easter
PLAY by Stuart Brown MD

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• Full Transcript

  Jess: 0:09

  Hello, friend, and welcome to Sturdy Girl, a podcast focused on strength, not size, where you will hear conversations around flexible body image, cultivating confidence and being a resilient human in both body and mind. Sturdy Girl is the podcast where we shift the focus away from your appearance and on to living the big, rad life you deserve. I'm your host, jess Heiss, dropping episodes every Friday, as we help you make the most of your Sturdy Girl summer. That is, reclaiming body confidence, wearing the swimsuit and doing the kinds of activities you want without letting your body or appearance hold you back. Hello, friends, and welcome back to another episode of Sturdy Girl, episode 39.

  Jess: 0:56

  Somehow we are on the last episode of season three, which means summer's almost over. I don't want to admit it yet. It's still August. It's still nice weather. I know some of you have kids that are going back to school or you're getting ready to go back to school, but I'm not ready yet. It is still Sturdy Girl Summer to me and I'm going to hang on to my shorts and my Sturdy Girl Summer shirts as long as possible which, speaking of friends through the end of August, because technically, summer isn't over until the third week of September. I'm giving you plenty of time. Summer isn't over until the third week of September. I'm giving you plenty of time. Sturdy Girl shirts the summer ones, as well as the OGs are on sale. So if you use the code SG summer, you get 20% off. So please, please, please, get your shirts while they're on sale.

  Jess: 1:37

  But okay, friends, today I wanted to wrap up this season with something a little more fun. Things that are based in research and my own anecdotal experience, but something to just shift our focus. Again. We're getting towards the end of summer. We probably had a lot of fun. There were a lot of things that we did Barbecues, boating trips, hiking, spending time with our friends, all the things and there can be this tendency to be a little bit sad when summer ends, which is completely acceptable. But then there's also the realization of, like we get into serious mode, like, oh, I played all summer, so now I need to like double down and focus, and we go into fall. And if you are in the realm of health and fitness coaches at all, you see people that are like all right, let's stay healthy through the holidays and let's not fall off track and all the shifts there. So, holidays and let's not fall off track and all the shifts there. So let's talk about how to stop taking life so seriously, because why? Why do we need to?

  Jess: 2:30

  So, at the beginning of each year, I like to choose one word that I would like to represent my entire year, something that I'd like to focus on being the main theme, as well as relating to my core values. Which friend, if you have not listened to episode nine on core values, if you have not figured out your core values, which friend, if you have not listened to episode nine on core values, if you have not figured out your core values, go listen to episode nine to figure those out. They are like your compass. They help you with decision making and they can change. Right, they're absolutely allowed to change, but listen to the episode. You can hone in on those.

  Jess: 3:02

  So, in terms of choosing a word for each year that relates to core values 2023, I chose intentional. So I tried to use that as my North Star, if you will, or my true North, with the compass analogy of being intentional in my actions, in my choices. What was my intent behind doing certain things? But for 2024, I chose the word play, and choosing this happened to coincide with winter break and being present with my cute little nieces, who are good grief, almost six and seven and a half now, but I'd also I'd realize how often I would divert into serious mode, check things off the to-do list, be strict with myself, be strict with others, stress about money going to work, not unwinding frequently enough to tune into myself, blah all of those things too much adulting, and I wanted to really use this word play as a chance to reconnect with myself, with the small moments that often mean the most, and I'll admit, I haven't been great at this. It's like when people tell you to just stay present, but then life just keeps coming at you.

  Jess: 4:05

  So I found that if I just asked one question, I could bring it back around. The question is how can I make this a little more fun right now? And that is the single biggest takeaway I want for you today, friends. Now this isn't an excuse to put a whippy cushion on your boss's chair or prank your husband just to get a laugh. Don't get yourself in trouble. But can we think about any given situation and a way to make it a little more fun or a little more palatable? I guess in this making it more fun or more palatable, it's kind of related to something called temptation bundling with these examples I'm about to give. But fun you need to do the dishes. So can you put on a fun playlist and dance a little while you work? Or maybe it's a podcast you want to catch up on or an audiobook?

  Jess: 4:45

  You have a three-hour long run on deck this weekend. Can you map out a pit stop for a fun treat along the way? Now, I know some of us can't handle a nice treat along the way, but I'll have athletes that will make a pit stop for an iced coffee or a small ice cream cone, or to stop at the convenience store and grab their favorite candy. If you have a diversion somewhere along the way, can you stop at a park and swing on the swings as a midway point for your run? You're buying groceries or you're running errands for the week. Can you buy yourself a little, like I said, iced coffee or a little Olipop soda, which is my go-to when I go to Target, or maybe a bunch of fresh flowers? Every time I go to Trader Joe's I love to look at all the flowers and bring a little bunch home to brighten up the house. How can you make something just a little more fun, a little more lighthearted, a little more playful.

  Jess: 5:34

  Are there reasons to laugh during certain scenarios? Again, use your judgment on this. Don't laugh when you're in a meeting for your work and they're talking about the budget cuts in the next quarter like not the right time. Look, I know our lives are busy and I never want to discount the sheer amount of stuff you have to get done on a given day. But, friends, our time is finite on this earth. I'm going to get serious for a second and you're probably over there like, oh god, she's going to talk about death.

  Jess: 6:01

  I've mentioned in a few podcast episodes about reading the book the Comfort Crisis. If you haven't added it to your to-be-read list, I highly recommend that you do and you put it at the top of your list. In part of this book, the author talks about one of the secrets to lasting happiness, if you will, is to contemplate the fact that you will die, that we all will die. He talks about this while he visited the country of Bhutan and how part of their daily practice is to contemplate death at least three times a day. If we confront it head-on, it no longer seems as intimidating or fearful and our brains automatically start to search for happy thoughts surrounding it. There is a level of acceptance to know that it's coming. I know this sounds morbid, you guys like me bringing up death in a podcast about how to stop taking life so seriously, but seriously bringing this back around. If we know we're going to die, if we know we have only those 75 summers on average, why the hell would we waste those years?

  Jess: 6:57

  Being serious all the damn time? 4,000 weeks to live and I want to spend as many remaining as possible laying dancing between sets during my lifts, singing badly in the car and in the shower, making my dogs dance with me, making our doodle wear hats and sunglasses and pose for photos, getting on the floor to play with my nieces and the babies in our neighborhood. My question for you is this why not be silly? Why not try to have more fun in our daily life? I'm really curious here.

  Jess: 7:27

  When we're serious all the time, it is so freaking easy to lose sight of what is really important. So another question for you and I want you to think about this like really pause and think what is really important to you. And they say that you can look at the way someone spends their time and that will tell you what is most important to them. So, if you spend your time being serious or focused on the things checking off the to-do list, how am I advancing in my career? Do I have all the things that everyone else in my neighborhood has? I don't know. Is that really what's important to you? Is it truly what matters most? Think about that, please.

  Jess: 8:01

  But okay, let's redirect and actually talk about some ways to stop taking life so seriously, like I mentioned previously, the most important one being asking yourself the question how can I make this more fun? Another way is how can I be more present right now? Right, because, friends, I can promise you that you were not put here on this earth to complete your to-do list. Your purpose on this planet is not your job, and there is no timeline or expectation for how or when we do things. So how do we actually stop taking life so seriously? Look when we make things fun. I just keep thinking about this, of finding the positive or the good in any given situation. How can we be on the lookout for opportunities to laugh? I don't think there's anyone here immune to a solid dad joke me or a cute dog video.

  Jess: 8:45

  So a few more things that can help us to stop being so serious. One of them is called the five-year test, and you've likely heard this one before. But asking yourself, in a given situation, is this going to matter five years from now? And I can tell you from experience that when I am caught up in some kind of serious or negative headspace, I've tried to ask myself this question and in the moment, I'm like, yes, this will matter, damn it. And then I have to follow it up with but ma'am, will it really matter? And the answer is usually no. And so another reframe of this is asking yourself is this really a problem for right now? Are we creating problems where there are none? Because I do this, I get so caught up in future pacing of what I want my life to look like this podcast, my coaching business that I have to come back to the here and now and realize what's right in front of me. What problems am I creating for myself right now, and do they really matter? From there, you've caught yourself in this grumpy pants headspace, and what's that called For those of you who've listened to any other Sturdy Girl episode?

  Jess: 9:47

  When we notice our thoughts, it's called awareness. This is another way to stop taking life so seriously by paying more attention to those thought patterns and when and how they arise. If they've happened once, they'll likely happen again. So just start to be aware of the patterns, of how they come up. The next thing can we create opportunities for less seriousness in life? Because, I get it, you can't be silly at work a lot of times. There's certain communication between friends, partners, family, co-workers that lends itself to a bit of seriousness. Like I mentioned before, we're not pulling out the dad jokes and one-liners on a call with your boss most of the time.

  Jess: 10:24

  But can we create times or spaces in our schedule for intentional play? Because this is a side note on play, there is actually a book called Play and it talks about the importance of play for adults, with a ton of research all about it, and I really encourage you to look that one up as well. Maybe I'll link both of these books the Comfort Crisis and Play in the show notes, because this book dives into examining our beliefs around what we think our lives are supposed to look like versus all the flexibility and fun we can truly have with it. Y'all, really, we don't have to believe our own BS. We can play, we can still be adults and do the adult things and all the serious adulting can happen and we can play and have more fun. We can do both, Okay. So I think those are some really good starting points to work on making life a little less serious. Look to the kids and how they play. How do you want to play? What is play to you? That's another thing in this book as well.

  Jess: 11:22

  As they talk about play isn't necessarily me asking you to go seek out your public park and slide down the slides and swing on the swings and play on the merry-go-round or whatever that could be. That is sometimes my definition of play. I have never met a swing set or monkey bars that I don't like. But maybe your definition of play is sitting down and unwinding in the evening with some video games or board games. Maybe your idea of play is building something. Play can mean different things for different people. Play is doing something just for the fun of it, not to focus on building a skill. So doing things simply because you enjoy them, not because they're advancing your life in any way.

  Jess: 11:59

  When we get silly, it is not necessarily advancing our life anyway, but I was thinking about this in terms of partners. When you can be silly and laugh and tell jokes with your partner. It is another way of connecting, and if you are less serious to their serious, maybe it'll help them be less serious and silly too. It actually reminds me there was this video that it was a man's point of view of, like the woman I thought I married, and it was like, and it was this woman's bridal photos, and her hair is done and her makeup's done, and then it's like a few of their first few date photos and whatever. And then it's like, fast forward to the woman I actually married and it's this person in their sweatshirt pulled over their head and their arms pulled out of their sleeves, like flopping them around pretending to be a monster and chase their dogs. And I'm like, yeah, that's me, hi, friends being fun.

  Jess: 12:46

  So read the comfort crisis, read play, look for opportunities to be a little more playful. Ask yourself, how can I make this situation just a little more fun? Where is there an opportunity to laugh? Not at someone else's expense, though, please. That's not what I'm saying, because, look, friends, I'm not trying to be morbid at the end of this, but there is a quote that sums up this whole episode. I couldn't find the proper person to attribute it to. But it goes like this Stop taking life so seriously. None of us make it out alive. None of us do, so why not have fun in the process? Okay, that's where I wanted to wrap it up.

  Jess: 13:19

  One other note that's not in my notes and is a side tangent, but one piece of taking life less seriously that I think about in terms of mindset is we tend to judge ourselves so harshly, and so this is a skill to learn to be able to take things less seriously, to play, to have fun and let go. So when I say, oh, just do it, just do these things, I recognize that these things take practice. There's a certain level of self-trust of this idea we have of ourselves in our minds versus what we could be doing instead. So we view ourselves maybe as a very goal-oriented, goal-focused person, crossing things off the to-do list, right. Maybe we're very type A and we like to just get those things done, but what often happens with that is that we lose sight of being present, and so it is a skill to be able to disengage from all of those focused things and on to being present, having fun, all the things I keep repeating. So just some acknowledgement there. There is a skill to be built in that awareness of those thought patterns, those negative things that come up, or those ways to catch yourself of like, oh how can I make this a little more playful, a little more lighthearted. It takes time, it takes patience with ourselves and it takes realization that it doesn't have to be all that serious. So there you are those are my last thoughts of just that piece of skill building self-compassion, patience with yourself, because I do wish for you to play as the summer winds down and recognize how fun it is to be present.

  Jess: 14:51

  Okay, friends, that is episode 39. Reminder to please, please, go check out Sturdy Girl Summer shirts. Any other shirts you might want 20% off. Basically, the whole site is how I set up the code, so have at it. And yeah, I guess this is me signing off until September. So we are planning to be back Friday, september 20th, with some really rad interviews that I have lined up for you guys right now, about half the season, our interviews with some really cool humans that I'm so stoked to bring to you. So have a wonderful rest of your summer and I'll be catching you on the first day of fall.

41. Strong Bodies, Strong Minds with Coach, Tara DeLeon

This episode of "Sturdy Girl" features a delightful chat between Jess and the phenomenal Tara DeLeon, all about defying diet culture and celebrating what our bodies can really do. Tara dives into her personal journey from growing up in the '80s—a time heavily influenced by diet trends—to becoming a leader for change in the fitness industry. She’s all about performance and health, emphasizing how important it is for us to feel strong and capable.

The duo shares their love for weightlifting, explaining how it builds more than just muscle—it boosts confidence and self-worth too. Tara gives some practical tips for getting started in the gym, spotlighting how beneficial it can be to have a little guidance, especially when new to weightlifting. It’s all about finding your own version of heavy and smashing through it.

Finally, Tara shares heartfelt experiences of motherhood and the pressures that come with it, especially concerning body image post-pregnancy. Her book, "Hot Mess to Hot Mom," serves as a lifeline for moms looking to find themselves again. Through their conversation, Jess and Tara highlight that it’s about lifting each other up, just as much as the weights, to find joy and strength in every aspect of life.

Connect with Tara HERE.

Listen to Tara’s podcast HERE.

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• Full Transcript

  Speaker 1: 0:06

  Welcome back, sturdy humans to episode 2 of season 4, also known as episode 41. I am so stoked for this season and I meant to get this intro to you last week. Blame it on overwhelm, but hello, this season is so full of wonderful interviews from experts from sturdy humans sharing their experiences, and then a few solo episodes sprinkled in. But I really I wanted to take a couple minutes just to record and catch up a little bit as we head into fall, because the last time that I got on here to say hello to you it was still summertime. We are now officially in fall, it's October, it's season four, the holidays around the corner, all the things.

  Speaker 1: 0:50

  I would love to hear from you how your summer went. Tell me your favorite part of your summer. There is a link in the show notes for sending me a message I'd love to hear. I'd also love to hear what you've been loving recently. So I'll go first. My favorite part of the summer super broad scope, but it's spending time outside with my favorite humans. Whether that's a hike, a porch, hang, it fills my cup.

  Speaker 1: 1:15

  These last couple of months, if we're being totally transparent, have been a lot. There have been a lot of family things going on a lot of stressful family things and there are seasons of life and having my people and my community has been the most important thing to me. So there we are. The other part of that in my ask of I'd love to hear what you are loving recently and my current rabbit hole. This is related to Sturdy Girl. I promise I have been rabbit holing on Buddhism recently. Yes, friends, leaning a bit into the spiritual and maybe a Buddhism recently. Yes, friends, leaning a bit into the spiritual and maybe a little woo-woo side. But there's a connection here. Body image research has a lot of basis in acceptance and commitment therapy or ACT, and ACT derives some of their principles from Buddhist teachings and that is how my rabbit hole started. So we are four or five books deep into Buddhism now and a lot of those principles have helped a lot with the self-reflection and I've really gained a greater understanding of how much our relationship with ourself impacts everything else. I finally understand the idea behind mindfulness and meditation and ways that aren't like oh well, I can't meditate, it's too hard, or sitting alone with my thoughts overwhelms me. The mindfulness piece and paying attention to our thoughts and how much that impacts absolutely every area of our life and how much easier it is to call myself out on my bullshit now. It's really amazing, so that you will hear in these solo episodes this season as I've sprinkled them in.

  Speaker 1: 2:42

  But enough about me, let's talk about today's guest. The first thing that I'm going to say about our guest today is that we 100% need to do a part two with her because our chat got cut short because of time constraints and I just I had a great time chatting with her. Our guest today is Tara DeLeon. She is this year's NSCA personal trainer of the year. She identifies as a weight neutral personal trainer, professor of health fitness exercise studies, podcaster, speaker and author. Okay, you guys, if it's anything in the fitness realm, she has done it. She has written a book that I have ordered.

  Speaker 1: 3:17

  She specializes in fitness for fertility, prenatal and postnatal fitness, and she loves to help moms go from hot mess to hot mom. She has her master's degree in human movement. I want to brag on her for a second, because she and I definitely go off on tangents in this conversation. Besides, nsca personal trainer of the year and causing a ruckus in that field as a plus size personal trainer when. Personal training even though it is 2024, personal trainer, when personal training, even though it is 2024, is still so size, exclusive, so super stoked on that. But she's also she's won best personal trainer twice, best lifestyle coach and has been voted best prenatal fitness coach for four years on a row by what's Up Annapolis magazine. I just so impressed by her. But outside of the fitness realm you can find her eating sushi or tacos my kind of girl going for walks, baking and spending time on the Chesapeake Bay with her husband and their four-year-old and their Aussie friends. Let's chat with Tara and I hope you enjoy her as much as I did.

  Speaker 1: 4:18

  Tara hello, hello, thanks so much for having me. Do you know? I just realized I didn't ask you if it was Tara or Tara.

  Speaker 2: 4:24

  It is. It's Tara like Tara piece of paper, or like terrorist, if you ask my husband.

  Speaker 1: 4:30

  Oh, careful, I have a really good friend and it's Tara, and so I just make assumptions.

  Speaker 2: 4:36

  Yeah, you know what I kind of answer to, like Sarah Tara Kara, it doesn't matter.

  Speaker 1: 4:40

  I get Jennifer a lot. Jessica and Jennifer were super popular. I was born in 1990, right, totally, we have people like you. It was Jennifer, right, I'm like sure it's Jen. Yeah, we're good. Okay, tell me a little bit about what you do. You were recently the NSCA Personal Trainer of the Year. Yes, I'm like mad props. That's amazing. Thank you, you have a podcast.

  Speaker 2: 5:05

  Tell amazing, thank you. You have a podcast. Tell me more about what you do. So I'm what's considered a weight neutral personal trainer, which is controversial to even exist, I feel like in this industry, because for so many decades, diet culture has been all about shrinking our bodies smaller, smaller is better, thinner is better. And when you come to me, I'm kind of like, hey, I care about how your body performs and how healthy you are, and I don't really care about what you look like on the outside, I just want you to feel good in your body and lift heavy stuff. And so the fitness industry lost its mind that a plus size weight neutral trainer won this award. But here I am doing the thing and I'm finding a lot of people who identify with it. Right, because at some point we get kind of tired of trying to be smaller and smaller and smaller and we just want to live our lives and be happy, and so people are really identifying with the message, which is cool.

  Speaker 1: 5:52

  That's so rad. Yeah, stop wasting the energy on what we look like, on trying to make ourselves smaller. Use that energy to lift heavy shit.

  Speaker 2: 6:00

  Yeah, yeah. I always tell people like your appearance is the least interesting thing about you. You know you're so much more than what you look like, so feel good, lift heavy and be happy.

  Speaker 1: 6:10

  I like to talk about our bodies as like the meat sack that allows us to experience the world. Like this meat sack is very strong. Like we love to lift heavy weights but like, realistically, this, it really means nothing about me.

  Speaker 2: 6:23

  Right, it like stores my soul and that's about it.

  Speaker 1: 6:26

  Yeah, have you ever seen the kids movie Soul? No, it's movie. Ok, that's when I think about body being the meat sack. In Soul. There's these little beings and I forget what they call them, but they're like they look a little white orbs almost. They have to like go through each of these sessions before they can go on to Earth and like inhabit a body, but they have to like find their purpose. It's like the last thing that they do before they can be Earthbound. It's a really cute story, but that's when I think about like your meat snack. Oh well, I've got like my little being. And then there's like my physical being. Yeah, totally.

  Speaker 2: 6:54

  I'm going to add that to the list for movie night with my four year old.

  Speaker 1: 6:58

  I don't have kids, but I love all things Disney, pixar kids movie.

  Speaker 2: 7:02

  We've recently been in like a Grinch and Coco rabbit hole, and my husband is Mexican, so we're like celebrating Dia de los Muertos this year, and my son is very excited about it, that's so cool.

  Speaker 1: 7:15

  Do you speak Spanish? I do. That's rad. I took eight years of Spanish, whoa, so you should speak Spanish Decent. However, I've spent let's see, my husband and I have been together eight and a half years. He speaks fluent French, he's half French, and so I've been slowly learning French and what's happened in my brain, for better or for worse, is like there's English and then there's every other language, and so the French and the Spanish get mixed up. Or when we've gone to France and he makes me be the person to order food or talk to someone, I panic, speak Spanish in full sentences with French phonetics.

  Speaker 2: 7:49

  So I'm laughing because I went to a school growing up where we had a French teacher who was from France and it was mandatory five days a week. I got really good at French. I'm also side note one of those like really languagely inclined people. My dad spoke 10 different languages, so it's just naturally comes easy to me, right? But as soon as I started learning Spanish, every time I would go to talk it would come out French. And now it is completely flipped, because I'm fluent in Spanish. I lived in Costa Rica, you know, to the point where I would dream in Spanish, and now I couldn't speak French. If you paid me like a million dollars, I could like understand when I'm listening, but then when I go to speak, it just all comes out Spanish. So I get the struggle.

  Speaker 1: 8:28

  It's so interesting to me. I will learn French at some point. When we have kids, I know that my husband is going to be all about teaching them French, and the last thing I'm going to want is like my husband and child shit talking their mom and not knowing what they're saying Well, if it's anything like my family, it will happen in English, right in front of you anyway. Yeah, it's probably going to happen.

  Speaker 2: 8:53

  Roasting mom is like our favorite hobby.

  Speaker 1: 8:54

  Yeah, that's going to be it too, because I don't know how your dynamic works, but my husband already with our dogs is such a pushover. He's the softy with all the treats and the one that always says yes, and I'm going to be the enforcer. So it's probably how it's going to be with the human children.

  Speaker 2: 9:08

  Definitely it's like flipped in my family, Like I try so hard to be hard, but also I'm not. And so my like biggest threat is, oh, do I need to talk to dad? And then it's like oh, so it's working for now, but I'll probably regret that at some other point.

  Speaker 1: 9:21

  That's awesome. Okay, redirecting, talking before we hit record, I try to, as I connect with guests, get to know a little bit about you and so, like on your website, you talked about your inadvertent start to your fitness journey, and most of us come into coaching from our own journeys. I, very similar, like, have my own story and journey that led me into the type of coaching that I do now. Right, tell me about that story. Like you had talked about, being a kid with a love of, like Teenage Mutant, ninja Turtles, having a really rad haircut which, like, is there photo evidence somewhere? And being a person in a larger body, like, yes, the floor is yours, I want to hear all of it.

  Speaker 2: 9:59

  So my story is steeped in diet culture and self-hate. So if you're, like you know, tender on this, maybe fast forward the next 30 seconds. But essentially I was like a little fat kid who got bullied and shamed. I had the worst haircut on earth Even, just like being born in the hospital. My dad was like look at her thunder thighs. And I kid you not, I'm 40 years old now and to this day my family still calls me TT. Of course I'm not all like upset about it anymore, but for like a lot of my childhood I was definitely like the ugly fat kid and like struggled, but with body image because of it. Plus, it was the 80s, right, so diet culture was running rampant. Heroin chic was like the vibe. I was like so grateful when J-Lo popped on the scene and they were joking about her taking a second limo for her ass to the Grammys or whatever. Like oh, finally we're glamorizing some sort of other body other than, you know, the supermodel Rail Thin. Anyway, it was not a super pleasant childhood. Little rail thin. Anyway, it was not a super pleasant childhood.

  Speaker 2: 11:02

  But when I was like seven or eight maybe, my brother really wanted to take Taekwondo and the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles were like the hottest thing on earth at that time. And so I was like, heck, yeah, put me in Taekwondo. And my parents were very clear. They're like, hey, if you start this, we are not quitting. You don't quit until you get your black belt. And so you know, all gung ho is like an eight year old. We were like, yeah, let's do it. And then six weeks into it we were like, actually this sucks, never mind. And my parents were like, sucks to be you, you're getting your black belt. So you know, fast forward. Like six years, seven years later we did, and it was not nearly as cool as the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles made it seem. But I do think that having that knowledge that I could whip some butt if I had to definitely gives me some self-confidence. And I think that learning to move my body and discover that my body was cool for doing something rather than just for being something to look at, I definitely think helped improve body image as a child. And then I actually lost a bunch of weight just from puberty.

  Speaker 2: 12:00

  I grew up a little bit, got a little thinner. You know I played a lot of sports in high school and even in college I played soccer and I did collegiate intramural inner tube water polo, which is every bit as fun as it sounds. That sounds amazing. Basically, everybody has a giant inner tube and you put your butt in the middle and your arms and legs hang out the side so you kind of look like a spider. But you know, being short, your arms and legs barely reach the water so you have to get the ball, put it in your lap and then you know like do your hands really fast to try to like move through space and everybody else is equally as bad as you are, except for the guys that have like really long arms and legs, but is super fun. So it just reinforced that. I like being able to do fun stuff with my body, and whatever it looks like is less important to me. I didn't really have like a word for that at that time, I just enjoyed moving.

  Speaker 2: 12:54

  So, being in college, I was waiting tables at Outback Steakhouse and I had a co-worker there who was a personal trainer and he was like hey, you should be a trainer. And I was like yeah, ok, that's a good idea. You know which is like the worst idea ever to like become something because someone else suggests it. But at the time I was in a class called Sports Fitness Techniques which I signed up for freshman year just to avoid like the freshman 15. And my college professor was so passionate about what he was teaching, like he would stand up on the desk and he was like shouting about the Krebs cycle, like dude was passionate, and it kind of intrigued me. I'm like, hey, if this guy is this excited about it, like maybe, maybe this is cool. And then he said the magic words of this is how you'll never be fat again. And I was like absolutely drawn into drawn into his teachings.

  Speaker 2: 13:47

  Turns out that's not actually the case and he wasn't right about that. But at the time I was a very impressionable 18 year old with an intense fear of getting fat. So I was all in and I studied for my certification and 21 years later, here we are.

  Speaker 1: 14:02

  That's amazing. Have you done all in-person coaching? Do you coach online?

  Speaker 2: 14:04

  Yeah. So if it's related to fitness, I've probably done it. So I ended up graduating from college. I moved back to Maryland I went to school in Hawaii, by the way so that was awesome and I should have never left. But I moved back to Maryland and I got a job as an in-person personal trainer. Back then nobody had heard of online training. Like the Internet was bad still. It was basically like email, junk and porn, nothing else. So like the early 2000s were a wild time for the Internet. So I was just in person and I was teaching at a local college. I was like teaching kids how to be personal trainers, which was kind of cool too. Looking back at that now I'm like, oh, I should have said this and I should have guided them this way and I should have actually mentioned diet culture in my classes. But I kind of feel like looking back and having some of those thoughts is a way to tell that you've been growing.

  Speaker 1: 14:49

  I look back at some of the first, like strength programs that I wrote when I first started coaching, and if you can't cringe at the first things that you made, then you're not doing something right. You look back and you're like those poor clients. I'm sorry.

  Speaker 2: 15:02

  I think that all the time my very first client was a lady that was just super prickly, you know. She had a lot of demands and preferences, whatever, and my boss was like listen, that's the worst client you'll ever have in your whole life. And at the time I was kind of like okay, and I'm telling you, it's been 21 years and that still stands true. I have not had a client that prickly ever since. But my second and third clients were both people that I had absolutely no business working with. Both of them were in motorcycle accidents. So I learned very early on I don't want to have a motorcycle in my life. And one was paralyzed from the waist down due to his accident and one was physically completely fine but he left a bunch of his brain out on the highway and so he was like extremely delayed and things like that. So you know, as a 19 year old, brand new trainer, I probably shouldn't have been working with those clients. That would be somebody much more suited for me now as someone with 21 years of experience. But you know, you kind of live and learn. So I'm glad I've had some of these experiences to make me the trainer that I am now. But since then I've taught group fitness.

  Speaker 2: 16:05

  I actually left personal training and I was a collegiate strength coach for like 10 years. I worked at Navy and Loyola and University of Maryland, briefly. So I thought I wanted to do that with my life, like I want to work with athletes. You know they'll take it seriously, and it didn't exactly turn out that way. Right Then, leaving collegiate strength and conditioning, I've found that, like, the people that take it the most seriously are the people who see like, hey, I need to be healthy. I have a goal to like be able to play with my grandkids someday, or I want to make sure that I keep my mobility forever. I love going for walks on the beach and I don't want to lose that because now I can't walk in sand, right. So those are the people that I find now that really are committed to what they're doing. And that's not to say I didn't love my time with the athletes, but it's a little bit more rewarding for me now, and now I do train online and in person.

  Speaker 1: 16:57

  Oh, it's really cool. I was just thinking like the teaching piece is rewarding in and of itself, despite the people that you are teaching. I think about my full-time day job. I'm a dental hygienist and I've been in dentistry close to 20 years, which just is insane to me, and so for a period of time thought that I was burnt out on clinical because it turns out I actually just had a not great boss.

  Speaker 1: 17:17

  But I got into teaching and going into the teaching space there's a lot of bureaucracy, stuff that I just didn't love, so I didn't end up staying in it. But the relationships that I got to form and the actual like teaching part is I loved it so much so you learn a lot about yourself. I think this was in like Grey's Anatomy, where they're like, yeah, the formula is see one, do one, teach one. Like if you can teach something, then you understand it even more. So for me, going into like the teaching sphere as a dental hygienist, think concepts and things that I inherently knew suddenly solidified themselves in a way when I was able to teach it that I was like, oh my gosh, this makes so much more sense now.

  Speaker 2: 17:57

  Yes, I completely agree. Teaching is the best way to learn something really well.

  Speaker 1: 18:01

  So, with like teaching versus coaching in person or online, you're talking about people who want that longevity piece and those being the most motivated. I find the same thing. Like you talk to collegiate athletes, they've already like honed the skill and have their sport and they're like, oh yeah, I'm like I'm good at this. Oh, you're talking about how to continue building strength Well, whatever, I'm good at my sport, whereas you talk to recreational athletes as, like the broad term, but just humans who want to improve their health. However, that looks like for them, where they're like I want to be able to get on and off the floor for as long as possible. Yes, we took my grandparents to France and Greece earlier this year and they are 75 and 76. And this is like six months in advance planned, and so they started walking almost every day to get ready for this trip, because they were like we want to keep up with you, we want to be able to walk and explore these places and not be like reliant on taking Uber everywhere, if Uber even exists in the cities that we're in, kind of thing. They have kept up this habit since this trip. They still go walking, I'm going to say probably four or five days a week as their average now.

  Speaker 1: 19:03

  And then my grandma. Well, I guess this is on the side. My grandma fallen broke her arm a couple months ago but she's been going to PT and now she calls me and she's like I just got gold stars for my PT today because now I can actually use a two pound weight instead of just bands to do these things. And she's like so proud of herself. And so she's like he wrote me a strength training program and I've got to start building some muscle mass or I'm just going to get old and not be able to do the things I like anymore. Yes, seeing this in my grandma, she's the 76 year old Seeing these things.

  Speaker 1: 19:34

  And then also the other side of that, just the walking, even before this, like strength training, which like hell yeah, grandma entered the picture, just walking, all of her. Like a lot of her health markers improved. Yeah, walking is so underrated and so beneficial. Like her A1C, I want to say it was like 10 point something. It's grandma, grandma's sometimes an unreliable narrator when it comes to any like health metrics, but it was 10, 10 something. And then she called me sitting in her car in her doctor's office and she's like my newest A1C is seven and we were like that's cause for celebration. That's amazing. And she hasn't changed her diet. She's walking every day.

  Speaker 2: 20:09

  That was like so much more meaningful to me than being like oh, I have another athlete that performed well in their game. That's great. It's great, but it's not life-changing, whereas bringing your A1C down or being able to travel or play with your grandchildren is life-changing. You know, training for your old lady body?

  Speaker 1: 20:26

  Yes, I love that's a thing now Me too, cause that's where I've been at. I had a whole season of my life running everything from 5Ks to 50Ks and it was just like running obsessed. And then I got into strength training and then I was powerlifting competitively for three years and I loved that and now I just feel like I live in that middle of. I love running still, I love lifting, but most of all I love training in such a way that it supports the lifestyle and activities I wanna have and that old person body I want forever.

  Speaker 2: 20:55

  I also think it's like prudent to mention I have a four old right and I worked out my entire pregnancy. I've been a personal trainer for like 20, whatever years. I know what I'm doing and I very much assumed I would have this baby wait my six weeks and then be ready to work out again, and at six weeks I still felt like my whole insides were going to fall out the bottom. So I feel like tuning into your body and listening to what your body's telling you, you know is so important and so underrated.

  Speaker 2: 21:21

  We get so shamed by society to like bounce back and to get our pre-baby body back, which, like why would we want to erase the fact that we've had this miracle happen to us? Right, but somehow we do. And listening to your body and being able to tune in and go, you know what I need another month, or I'm going to start really slow and just walk. Even though I wanted to deadlift, you know, it probably took me six months after I had my son to get back to lifting heavy Right, which any pre and postnatal person will tell you oh, you should have been OK at six weeks.

  Speaker 2: 21:52

  You know like sometimes you got to tune in and listen so that you can survive and thrive through your life and make it to your old lady body.

  Speaker 1: 22:01

  Absolutely. That is one piece like bounce back. Culture is wild. It is wild because the pregnant body is celebrated and you get like strangers that want to touch you and you know like, oh, yeah, you're pregnant, like amazing, oh, congratulations. And the second you have the baby. It's like all right, get your, get your body back. You got to be able to bounce back and you're like I just spent 40 weeks baking this baby, yeah, and you think that I'm gonna not take that long for my body to return to normal. It's wild to me that's a whole weekend side tangent on that for forever, because that, to me, is so frustrating.

  Speaker 2: 22:34

  So frustrating. That's actually okay. So, diving into the side tangent a little bit, that's actually why I wrote my book. So I wrote the book hot mess to hot mom transformational tools after, for thriving after, childbirth and beyond because I felt like I was book. So I wrote the book Hot Mess to Hot Mom Transformational Tools for Thriving After, Childbirth and Beyond because I felt like I was a year postpartum.

  Speaker 2: 22:51

  It was the morning of my son's first birthday. It was COVID, still right. He was born in July 2020. So it was July 2021.

  Speaker 2: 22:58

  We had decided to have a party for him and I was like doing all the things right and I was like let me jump in the shower and get ready before people get here. Hopefully I'm clothed by the time guests arrive. And I looked down in the shower and realized I hadn't shaved my legs in I don't even know how long. And no shade to people who choose not to shave their legs, but for me that was like a part of what I do regularly. I kind of had this come to Jesus moment where I was like girl, you got to get your shit together. Your legs are like Sasquatch and your baby is a year old. You're like that's not even a newborn anymore. It's not even an infant anymore, it's just a baby at this point, Come on. And so I felt like I didn't have a lot of support. I kind of feel like our village concept of, you know, raising children or even just thriving through life doesn't really exist for many of us, and if we want a village we have to pay for it right.

  Speaker 2: 23:50

  We have to hire a nanny, we have to hire a housekeeper, we have to do meal prep. There's so many things that if we had a true village, like those would be those responsibilities would be divided up and I felt like I didn't have the village. So I was like looking at all the things I was experiencing postpartum right, like my libido like where did that go?

  Speaker 2: 24:10

  I had this baby and all of a sudden I didn't like to do the thing I used to like to do, you know. So I asked my doctor and she was like, oh yeah, that'll come back when your kid goes to college. And I was like that's like 18 years from now. And then she's like, oh wait, wait, let me see. And then she like checked her notes. She's like, no, you'll be menopausal by then. So it's gone. That's ridiculous. I do not like that answer at all, man, that sounds unhealthy.

  Speaker 1: 24:33

  Are you?

  Speaker 2: 24:33

  sure. So her advice like side note, I've since gotten a new doctor. But her advice was to like Google the Internet for things to boost libido. And I was like what, that was a doctor recommendation. Get on Dr Google.

  Speaker 2: 24:47

  I was like, oh, I've seen these pills in the gas station. I just didn't think they were safe. So, anyway, it kind of sent me down the rabbit hole on my own, of like, where can I find somebody to help me boost my libido? Who do I even look for for that? But I found a woman who specializes in that. She gave me the craziest advice and I'll tell you what it is. She was like I want you to think about sexy stuff every time you're around water. And I was like I don't understand what you're saying. And she was like, dude, you're like washing your hands. And you're like, oh, the water. And I was kind of just like what I'm? Like? Listen, I'm a new mom. I don't even wear clothes most days. You want me to feel sexy while I'm like washing dishes? I don't know, this was the best advice I've ever gotten, but Jess, I'll tell you totally worked. Like I'm not sure what happened there, but I tried it just out of like. All right, let's see what this bullshit is. You know.

  Speaker 2: 25:35

  And sure enough I was like dang, what is this? So there's a little pro tip for you if you need a little more libido in your life, Noted. But essentially why I'm telling you that story is because I took all these people that helped me postpartum and I had them all write a chapter in the book so that moms can feel like moms again, you know, or I should say, moms can feel like themselves again, because we have this baby for nine months. It's all about the baby, the baby, the baby, and then the baby is born and it's still all about the baby and nobody's going like hey, mom, how are you? Yeah, how do you take care of you? Now, how are you taking care of you? And you have the mom guilt, which I did not truly understand until I had my son. But like I would go to the gym and I'd be like, oh, this is a half an hour I could be spending with him, that I am just wasting on myself, you know.

  Speaker 2: 26:23

  And of course that's not the truth right and even me as a professional like I know that's not the truth and that every workout I'm doing now is hopefully prolonging my life, for later and giving me a better quality of life for later, but it was super hard, so providing that village for the readers of the book is something that I felt was kind of necessary.

  Speaker 1: 26:44

  That's so rad. Okay, I'm looking up your book. I don't have kids yet, but I just am so curious your village that you accumulated because I sound like a bougie bitch about to brag here. I am really, really lucky in that we have this little. We live on a cul-de-sac and we have this little community. We have multiple other families around our age that all have kids. We are like neighborhood aunt and uncle and they all come together and support each other, as each person has had a kid, and so I've been to a handful of baby showers on the last few years and one of the women her baby shower gift is a gift to mom instead of to baby, and it's like a post-birth care package of all the things and she's like your baby's got plenty of stuff. You have 10 million diapers. Every single onesie on the planet. This is for you, mom.

  Speaker 2: 27:29

  Yes, I love that Plus if we're being like completely for real. I know I skew a little bit minimalist in my tendencies, but we have so much crap for our babies that is not necessary. You know, they need a safe place to sleep, they need something to eat and they need clothes to wear everything else they're like just as happy with household items as they are with toys.

  Speaker 1: 27:49

  Oh yeah, Our closest friends, little ones, almost one, and it cracks me up because she's like I. Like the box that came in. Please Let me have the Amazon box Measuring cups to bang around. That's my jam.

  Speaker 2: 27:59

  Yeah, a hundred percent. My son used to just go in our kitchen and just open all the cabinets and play with whatever. And you know, like I didn't love it because it's now I got to put it all back, I got to wash it, I got to whatever. But like, how much nicer to not have a whole room full of plastic trash that he's going to play with for an hour and then I'm going to have to feel guilty about getting rid of because it was his first thing. Oh yeah, and then you get to deal with all those emotions.

  Speaker 1: 28:24

  Yes, totally Okay, amazing. Thank you for sharing about your book, because that was one of the things I definitely wanted to ask about. It's just like how that came into being and bringing it out there, that's right. So do you have your own chapter in there, or did you just yes, so I wrote two chapters.

  Speaker 2: 28:39

  It's my book so I can do what I want. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Actually, technically I wrote four chapters but like the intro chapter is kind of like the story I just told you of how it came to be, and then my closing chapter is a list of like all my favorite stuff that you need for a baby or for a new mom, and most of them aren't actual things, like there's certain things like the Duna stroller that's a must have and it'll make your life way easier. But most of it is like a good support network and join this group to learn about safe sleep and make sure you have your husband on board to like share the mental load and that kind of stuff Right. But the chapters that I actually wrote wrote are a chapter about prenatal fitness, because one of my specialties is prenatal and postpartum fitness, so I kind of give you like the workout.

  Speaker 2: 29:21

  Here's what you're going to do Start on this many weeks postpartum unless your body doesn't feel good, and then, whenever you do, start from this point. And then I wrote a chapter on body image, so talking about all things, you know, kind of how we can feel good about ourselves even though our bodies may look a little different than they did a year ago.

  Speaker 1: 29:39

  That's such an important part and I've had a couple of guests on the podcast who are pelvic floor specialists, physical therapists, and we've talked a little bit about that like bounce back culture and postpartum in that body image piece. And it's no, I can't speak from experience, but just having that conversation because you think about the societal norm of what a woman should do, whatever and then the reality of like, how do I handle this? My view of myself has shifted now that I have, like, birthed this human and they oftentimes come before I do. And how do I take care of me? And then, how do I take care of that relationship with self?

  Speaker 2: 30:12

  Yeah, it's difficult, right. As a mom, you're worrying about your baby. You're probably also worrying about your spouse, because that whole dynamic changes quite a bit. If you have any other kids, you're worrying about them too, and then worrying about us kind of comes last, but without us, the whole train derails. So it really should be like a put on your own oxygen mask type thing. First, exactly, yeah. So my hope is that the book is like a resource for moms. I even did like a thing where at the end of each chapter I summarized it really quickly and then give you like the tool, the takeaway, so that if you don't have time because you're a new mom and you need help now, but you can't read the entire book, like here, the TLDR is right there for you.

  Speaker 1: 30:55

  That's awesome. Ok, in interest of time, not to just totally change directions. I think this all kind of fits together. But I wanted to talk to you, just personal trainer to personal trainer, about love of lifting, and we're talking about lifting heavy shit. I think you posted a video. Is it your husband repping out 225 at the fair with a hex bar?

  Speaker 2: 31:12

  Yes, my husband is one of these people who is just like freakishly strong, no matter what, and he lifts very regularly and he has for the past six ish years, maybe even more than that. He just didn't do it at the gym that I worked at, but he was just born strong.

  Speaker 1: 31:28

  I just freaking. I loved that because I would 100% be that person and my husband would be there like cheering me on. This is so cool. But no, my question, not even a question about lifting. I just like bringing up love of lifting and thinking about how that plays a part in body image, self-efficacy, self-confidence, those things. Do you have any tips for people in starting their lifting journey and or like in their journey to talk about how lifting has maybe improved your own body image or how you've seen it improve other people's Because I could talk all day long about this stuff because I was the running to get smaller for a long time person discovered lifting heavy shit and completely transformed my relationship to my body through lifting. So same.

  Speaker 2: 32:12

  I love heavy lifting because I've seen it change so many lives, right? I truly believe that, like you, can't have a bad day when you've had a good lift, right, you put some heavy weight on the bar, and heavy is so subjective what's heavy to me is not heavy to you, it's not heavy to somebody else, or vice versa. Heavy can be a 10 pound dumbbell, you know, or it could be a 225 pound barbell, it just doesn't matter. But when we're struggling to overcome this external resistance and we lift something that we deem to be heavy, it just fills you with so much body confidence that I really don't think you're going to have a bad day. You're going to, like, drop that bar down and walk out of the gym like you're something else. Because you are right, and I've seen it change so many people's lives.

  Speaker 2: 32:58

  People come to me all the time as a personal trainer to get smaller. Diet culture is still running rampant. Like. This is a part of what we do as trainers, right, it's not really a part of what I do anymore, but it's still super, super common. So people come to me to get smaller. I teach them how to lift weights because you know that can be helpful with that too right, and then, without fail, they usually go okay, nevermind about all that, I just want to get strong.

  Speaker 2: 33:20

  They get kind of bitten with the bug of like let's get strong, let's get awesome, let's get confident, let's feel badass. You know, it gives us a little bit of good vibes to fall back on when you're having a bad day. You know what? I may have a bad day, but I can still deadlift 225.

  Speaker 1: 33:36

  So I've really found for myself in this season that it's this reinforcement of self-efficacy, of like I am capable of doing hard things.

  Speaker 1: 33:45

  Yes, there have been so many arenas in my world right now that I'm just like, yeah, then so when you can step into the gym and it's your time and your space and you can remind yourself that I can do this thing, I can lift the weight that's heavy relative to me and I appreciate you bringing that up, because I mean, we talk about lifting heavy shit and some people are like, well, I don't want to ever be able to squat 300 pounds, that's not a goal.

  Speaker 1: 34:05

  And you're like that's not the point. The point is that you're challenging yourself because, yeah, if you put a 10 pound dumbbell in my hand, how many lateral raises can you do? Do you ever graduate to like 15s with lateral raises? Literally never. And so, no, I just I really appreciate that because I that self-efficacy piece, then it plays into the body image part of, hey, if I can do these hard things, I can keep showing up for myself and, like you said, the people that come to you and say like, hey, I want to lose weight or I want to get smaller, and then we start incorporating lifting as just a resilience piece, and then suddenly they're like oh well, now I want to get stronger too, can we just keep lifting more weight.

  Speaker 2: 34:39

  Like. I actually love this. Yes, so good. I feel like my biggest like tips for people who are, like dude, I think I want to dive into lifting but I'm not really sure where to start or what to do. Just go. It's all about consistency. So you know, my advice for like brand newbies is like start with the machines. You're not going to hurt yourself on the machines. You know you're going to start feeling strong. You'll probably be pretty sore your first time or two. Start with that, and then it is so worth the money to hire a personal trainer for like two or three sessions just to like show you the right form. Tell them that you're hiring them for three sessions, ask them for the program right. Have them do it with you and so that you can like make sure my form is good, I know the intensity that I'm supposed to be working out at and I know what good pain and bad pain is right. If you've got those three things down like, you'll be good. You got this.

  Speaker 1: 35:28

  I completely agree. That's fantastic. Yay, so good. Do you have two minutes for a couple of rapid fire questions? Yeah, okay, I just want to. I was trying to pay attention to time and make sure you're good. Okay, I think this is a really for an hour at least, but very important question to me. What is your favorite kind of cookie? Peanut butter, chocolate chip? No question. Texture like hard crunchy soft.

  Speaker 2: 35:52

  No, I'm like a soft person, yeah soft and chewy is my jam.

  Speaker 1: 35:59

  Okay, what is something that you've been loving lately? An activity, a physical thing? Any standout favorites recently?

  Speaker 2: 36:02

  Yes. So, like I told you earlier, we're like celebrating Dia de los Muertos this year and so I went into Michael's recently and I am the least crafty and artistic person on the planet but they had like clay sugar skulls there to paint and I was like, oh, this might be a fun family activity and I'm actually loving it. My son is just getting paint everywhere, which is not my favorite part, but like I've been like putting him to bed and working on the little intricate details of the skull and painting the flowers and the color theories. I'm sure totally wrong and whatever, and it's probably not at all authentic, but I don't care. It's really fun and kind of therapeutic for me.

  Speaker 1: 36:39

  I was going to say that you get to be creative and be proud of yourself for having a little self-expression in this like piece of art. Yes, I'm into it. That's so cool.

  Speaker 2: 36:48

  Okay, pumpkin spice lattes or no, so I'm not a coffee drinker so I'm going to go with no, but I love pumpkin spice.

  Speaker 1: 36:55

  Chobani yogurt. There you go. So pumpkin flavored things, we just go no coffee. Okay so what is your like morning beverage? What do you drink in the mornings then?

  Speaker 2: 37:06

  Are you like water? I drink water every all day, every day. But if I'm going to be like really crazy, I might have like a lemonade.

  Speaker 1: 37:09

  I'm a very boring drinker? No, not at all. I love the taste of coffee. It's not even the caffeine for me. It's not necessarily my morning ritual, I just like the flavor of coffee is just so good. Ok, that's a little side danger. What is the number one book you've recommended or given as a gift?

  Speaker 2: 37:26

  Oh man, I love reading. It is my all time favorite hobby. The one that I probably recommend the most is for personal trainers, so most of your audience probably will not love it, but it's called Ignite the Fire and it's like how to be a badass personal trainer. Is that John Goodman? It is Love that book. He also wrote one called Viralnomics, which is amazing and awesome. It's basically the science of how to get people to want to talk about you so you could apply it to like social media, but also it like stands the test of time because it's like 20 years old. But my favorite author is Vince Flynn. Vince Flynn writes books about the CIA and it's fiction right, but like his main character is this sexy CIA guy who does the right thing, regardless of whether or not our government thinks it's the right thing. You know he's a little rebellious and the ultimate badass, so I feel like I recommend that to everybody who likes reading.

  Speaker 1: 38:17

  Oh, my gosh. Okay, yes, I know who Vince Flynn is. That's so great Well.

  Speaker 2: 38:21

  I can't believe you know him, I usually say that people are like I don't know about that.

  Speaker 1: 38:27

  Oh yeah, absolutely. But I mean I also love reading and I read three books a week Like that's my jam.

  Speaker 2: 38:33

  So we're like the same human. Yes.

  Speaker 1: 38:35

  Oh my gosh, more conversation later, please. Okay, actual last question when can audiences find you to learn more? Yes, where?

  Speaker 2: 38:43

  can audiences find you to learn more? Yes, so I'm on Instagram. That's where I'm like the most active. I'm sure you'll link it in the show notes or whatever, but it's at Tara Deleon Fitness so I like to post, you know, lifting stuff, body image quotes, things like that Anything like girl power I'm like into. But you can also find me on my podcast, wellness Rebranded. Wellness Rebranded is a podcast where a personal trainer, an intuitive eating-based dietitian and a mental health therapist come together to help you redesign your relationship with like food, fitness and your feelings without the side of diet culture. So if you've been kind of exploring removing yourself from diet culture, that is a good thing to check out.

  Speaker 1: 39:20

  I'm definitely going to check it out. Thank you so much for being on. I adored this conversation. I'm sure our listeners did too, but let's continue chatting about books, please. Yeah, I'm super in. I want to hear your recommendations. That is Okay, all right, friends. Thanks so much for listening to another episode of Sturdy Girl. We will catch you next Friday.

38. [STURDY SHORT] A Pep Talk For Body Image Spirals

This is the episode you download to revisit on bad body image days. It's 8 minutes of your friend, who cares deeply, giving you a pep talk when your feels about your body are causing your brain to spiral.

REMINDER: Sturdy Girl shirts (our limited edition summer shirts AND the OG's) are on sale! Use code SGSUMMER for 20% off!

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• Full Transcript

  Jess:

  0:09

  Hello, friend, and welcome to Sturdy Girl, a podcast focused on strength, not size, where you will hear conversations around flexible body image, cultivating confidence and being a resilient human in both body and mind. Sturdy Girl is the podcast where we shift the focus away from your appearance and on to living the big, rad life you deserve. I'm your host, jess Heiss, dropping episodes every Friday, as we help you make the most of your Sturdy Girl summer. That is, reclaiming body confidence, wearing the swimsuit and doing the kinds of activities you want without letting your body or appearance hold you back. Hello, my sturdy friends, and welcome back to episode 38 of season 3 of Sturdy Girl. We have this episode and one more episode until we are done with season 3. We'll be taking a, I think, three-week break, if I remember correctly, before jumping into season four in September, which is wild to me. But we're gonna do a little something different today You're gonna bear with me, because I feel like this is so needed for myself and for you. Maybe.

  Jess:

  1:16

  So a little set the scene moment here. We all have bad body image days. We all have those thought spirals that we can get into, even when we have a healthy body image. So this is me speaking directly to you during a body image spiral. It is short, heartfelt and intensely personal. Like I said, it's a little different than the way we've previously done episodes, but I want this episode to be that one episode that you have downloaded to revisit, on just this kind of body image day, a few minutes of someone who is wholeheartedly in your corner because I am reminding you of how resilient and powerful you really are.

  Jess:

  1:54

  So let's begin. Let's start by taking a deep breath in through your nose for four counts One, two, three, four, pause and you're going to slowly exhale through your mouth. Now, I don't know if you're like me in this moment, but when someone says to take a deep breath when I'm reading a book, or when someone mentions a yawn out loud, I follow through, I yawn, I'm the one that takes a deep breath. So in this moment, I just take a few moments to take a big deep breath. And we're going to start with two gigantic reminders One, your body is simply the meat sack that allows you to experience the magic in this world. It is only one singular part of who you are, a small piece of the puzzle, not the whole. And two, it is okay to have moments, hours or days where you do not like your body.

  Jess:

  2:49

  Your feelings are valid and it is 100% important to acknowledge them. Let me repeat that it is okay to have moments, hours or even days where you do not like your body. The important part is acknowledging acknowledging those feelings. Your body and mind are strong, resilient and helped you make it through 100% of your lived experiences so far, and I'd say that's a pretty good track record for the likelihood that you're going to make it through today. But seriously, friend that meat sack your body.

  Jess:

  3:18

  It's not what gives life meaning. The days we don't feel good in our body aren't the ones that define us. Nor does our body or our appearance define who we are. These kinds of days are going to come up, no matter what your body looks like, no matter how healthy your body image is, no matter what kind of lifestyle or level of physical activity you pursue. And, as much as I hate when people tell me this, these negative feelings will pass.

  Jess:

  3:44

  So let's give this a little perspective One. What if I told you that our goal here is not to get rid of the negative thoughts, because getting rid of negative thoughts isn't possible? Yes, we can decrease the number of negative thoughts in our head, and that's a topic for another time. But our goal here is to give space for those negative thoughts to come up and let them be just that thoughts. You don't have to latch on or identify with those thoughts. They don't have to mean anything about you if you don't want them to. They're just words swirling around inside your head too.

  Jess:

  4:20

  I want you to think about your favorite human on this planet your partner, a parent, a sibling, a best friend. If they came to you and said God, I am just feeling really shitty about my body today. These rules on my stomach make me feel worthless, and none of the clothes I put on fit right or feel good. I really just I want people to see that I have these defined shoulders that I've worked so hard for. How are you going to respond to them? Are you going to get upset with them for not having achieved the body that they seem to want? Are you going to judge them for feeling negatively for being in this state? Not at all. You're going to, first of all, be kind to them. You're going to be gentle and certainly not harsh. You'll want to tell them about their amazing qualities as a human, the things that you love about them that have nothing to do with their appearance.

  Jess:

  5:02

  So, if you feel up for it, let's shift this friend talk onto ourselves to remind us that we, you, are a rad, strong and resilient human who isn't going to let one day, one hour and one body image spiral or a series of negative thoughts create a bad life. Let those negative thoughts come up, but take that deep breath and ask yourself if the things you're saying to yourself are things that we would say to a friend. Are they really true? How can we reframe here? How can you reframe here? Third perspective here Can we ask some questions to remind ourselves of the incredible human being that we are?

  Jess:

  5:39

  Sometimes these questions are not ones that we want to contemplate during our spiral, let alone answer, and I 100% acknowledge this. So, questions what are some things that you do well? What are some things that make you proud of yourself? Is it your ability to turn everything into a dick joke, to be able to devour a book in one sitting? Are you an amazing dog, mom? Have you managed to keep your houseplants alive and thriving? What about your ability to soak in the smell and sight of gorgeous flowers, to hug your loved ones, no matter what your arms look like, to have strong legs that allow you to do all the activities that you love.

  Jess:

  6:16

  Are you maybe a really good listener? Friend? Your kindness, your compassion, your sense of humor, your ability to be a good friend and human to others these are the qualities that truly matter and are important in this life of 75 summers, not the size of your clothes or the number on the scale. You're not alone, friend. Reach out to someone you know loves and cares about you. We care about you. This point is so huge.

  Jess:

  6:44

  When you're struggling, please don't isolate yourself, and I know it's so easy to do, but there is true power in being with others who are supportive, who are there to listen, who are there to be a shoulder, whatever you might need, and then, from there, can you take a few moments to engage in something that feels good and feels like self-care, and only you can answer what self-care feels like to you right now. But when we are in these spirals, it is even more important to take the time to take care of you. Your worth is not found in your brain cells or your fat cells. You are inherently worthy for being here, for being human. So, regardless of your thoughts about your body right now, you are worthy of love, respect, care and nourishment, and so is your body.

  Jess:

  7:33

  I'm sending you the biggest virtual hug, so much love and the reminder that I am always in your corner. My DMs are open and, friend, you've got this, even if it might not feel like it right now. All right, friends, that felt really good. I hope that some of this resonated with you, helped you in these days of body image spirals, to know that you have someone else in your corner and know that you're not alone. Whether you have healthy body image, positive body image, body neutrality, whatever it might be, or you're just straight up struggling, we all have days like this that are triggered by different things, and that's why we're here. Again. I will reiterate DMs are open, always happy to chat. Friends, happy Friday, I'll talk to you next week.

37. The 3 Habits That Saved Me During a Hard Season

We all go through hard seasons and we all cope with them differently. This episode give you Jess's 3 habits that helped her get through a hard season and how to apply them in our lives. You'll learn about nonnegotiables (something she works on with every client) and what her current recommended read is. 

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• Full Transcript

  Speaker 1:

  0:09

  Hello, friend, and welcome to Sturdy Girl, a podcast focused on strength, not size, where you will hear conversations around flexible body image, cultivating confidence and being a resilient human in both body and mind. Sturdy Girl is the podcast where we shift the focus away from your appearance and on to living the big, rad life you deserve. I'm your host, jess Heiss, dropping episodes every Friday, as we help you make the most of your Sturdy Girl summer. That is, reclaiming body confidence, wearing the swimsuit and doing the kinds of activities you want without letting your body or appearance hold you back. Hello, my Sturdy friends, and welcome to episode 37 of Sturdy Girl. Happy Friday, happy August, happy two-thirds the way through summer or, if you're some of my friends whose kids are already starting school, happy almost fall. I'm not ready. I'm still wearing my Sturdy Girl summer shirt. We still have some Sturdy Girl Summer shirt. We still have some Sturdy Girl Summer shirts. If you are interested in getting one, which I highly recommend, if you use the code SGSUMMER, you're going to save some money, so get your shirts while we still have them. We've sold out in a few sizes but still have some left, so get yours while we still have them. We're already working on fall designs.

  Speaker 1:

  1:26

  I will tell you, as a podcast host, a coach, the apparel side of things is a whole nother world that I just haven't even scratched the surface of. When I look at brands that launch designs every single month, this launch culture is so overwhelming to me because I'm like how do they do that? Obviously, I know they have a team and it's just me and Blake at this point, right, but still I don't know if I'm a fan of the launch culture. I want people to have rad shirts that say Sturdy Girl on them and live their Sturdy Girl life. That's my mission. But to push launches all the time seems overwhelming. But anyways, get your sturdy girl merch, it's still there. We'll start bringing back sweatshirts when the weather gets cool, but right now, I mean, it's 90 every day here, so happy, still summer.

  Speaker 1:

  2:14

  But this episode, okay. I had about three other outlines for this episode today and after a few client conversations, chats with friends, I realized that this is the episode that was needed, because I asked myself what do we need to hear this week? And here it is Three habits that saved me during a hard season. Because, I'll be honest, this last month has felt like a hard ass season in and of itself. I won't bore you with the specifics, but there are seasons that come up that challenge you in different areas and you roll with them. You figure out how to keep going.

  Speaker 1:

  2:49

  It's easy to let so many things go and be running on doing the absolute bare minimum, especially when things out of the norm get thrown our way, and so the point of this is to say, like these aren't the things that are going to fix your situation, whatever hard thing or things you're going through. This is how do we maintain some semblance of feeling like ourselves, maintain some level of taking care of ourselves and reminding ourselves what is important to us? Originally, when I thought about what I wanted to talk about this week, I wanted to say three things that saved me, instead of three habits, and I was going to jokingly say, actually seriously say, bubbly water, barbells and dark chocolate, because you know your girl loves bubbly water. Don't know if you guys knew I love dark chocolate, but I do. And barbells that is a given and explaining it from this things perspective, barbells have served a very specific purpose in this season and it's not just the exercise piece and it hasn't been to get stronger. It is a reminder to myself that I am capable of doing hard things. It is that self-efficacy piece. It is okay. No matter what else is going on in my life, I can still pick up some heavy shit off the ground and put it down again. Is it as heavy as I've lifted in my life? No, but that heaviness is relative and it's a really great reminder of my capabilities. So have barbells served a very important purpose in the last month? 100 percent. And I encourage you, if you are not a lifter, that there is something to be said for learning those skills of basic strength training. Movement in and of itself could be a whole part of this as a habit that helps with stress management, that helps with mental health. Right, there is research to support that. Get out on a walk, lift some weights, whatever modality. But that's not what I want to talk about. I'm going to get myself totally segued here. These tips in this episode aren't specific to body image or confidence or necessarily that self-efficacy piece. It's more along the lines of how the heck do I tune back into being and feeling like myself when life feels wild and overwhelming and out of my control in so many areas when stress is high? So let's get into this a little bit.

  Speaker 1:

  5:05

  I work with my clients a lot on setting non-negotiables. These are things that you want to do daily without fail. They are simply not negotiable. They're not big things. They're usually small tasks, small actions. So every week in my check-ins with my clients, I ask what are your one to three non-negotiables for the week, and these can be as simple as I want to drink 100 ounces of water a day, I'm aiming for four servings of plants a day to floss every day, to make my bed every day. Whatever type of habit you know is going to support your focus for that week. It needs to be small to make it something that you can do regularly With these non-negotiables. These are along the lines, like I said, supporting your focus for the week. This means, if you know that work is going to be hectic, or family life or coordinating all the things on everyone's schedule in your home, can you set the non-negotiable to put out everything you can for breakfast the next morning at the end of each day. That's one less stress you have getting ready for the day with everyone's busy schedules, little things like that. What are your non-negotiables? Come what may, you get those done.

  Speaker 1:

  6:13

  So if you take nothing else away from this episode, let it be this Consider incorporating non-negotiables into your daily routine, choosing one to three things you could do each day to feel more like yourself. I will say for me and maybe this is too much of a confession, but when stress gets high, when maybe mental health isn't as great because of the things that are going on, I make my number one non-negotiable taking a shower every single day, because I can't tell you why. But showers, the thought of wanting to shower, let alone wash my hair or shave my legs, it is the first thing to go out the window. When I'm stressed Like why would I want to do that? I don't even care, I just want to go to bed. Or when you get up in the morning to convince yourself to get up, if you're like I'm just going to skip the shower, it's so easy to do. So there's some context of my easiest non-negotiable in some weeks. Do it in a way to support yourself. And maybe these next three habits that I'm about to talk about can be a consideration for your one to three weekly non-negotiables.

  Speaker 1:

  7:14

  But here's what saved me during this hard season. Number one a daily check-in with myself. You can approach this so many ways. I'm going to talk about this from a way that it helped me. You can make this fit for you. For me, it's setting a 10-minute timer. It is reconnecting to my body and my brain. It is pen to paper 10 minutes to ask myself how am I actually doing? What am I feeling, what do I need? That reconnection piece, it's a chance for me to come back to myself. In a sense, if you've been a human doing all day long, there is a point where you need to transition into a human being. It reminds me a lot of the concept of groundedness. Think like a tree with its roots firmly in place.

  Speaker 1:

  7:58

  Coming back to center and journaling out the feels and truly getting curious about how my body is doing can be really helpful because, like I said, when we are a human doing all day long, we often don't take the time to key into how we are feeling. How is our body? Are we tired? Do we need to go to bed earlier? Do we actually need movement? Have we eaten enough? Tuning into those cues, it takes all the noise of the day and allows you to take a big, deep breath, to just be present, which is often the hardest thing to do when we have a million things on our plate.

  Speaker 1:

  8:35

  So, as I say, this hey, number one thing, number one habit that saved me is daily check-in with myself. There is a piece of mindfulness to this right, and mindfulness can be a buzzword, can get eye rolls, but I just mean this simply in the point of how well, actually, lady, you've been taking garbage care of me. And here's the things I need, because we can hear those things and tune into the sense of wow. We have been running on fumes to try and get things done without tuning back into ourselves. So that has been the number one most helpful thing for me. And I will tell you do I do this every day? Absolutely not. The goal is every day, and I'll say worst case.

  Speaker 1:

  9:22

  But if there is a time when I'm just not going to pull out the journal, I'm not going to do this right before bed, which is typically when I do it. Some people may feel better doing this in the morning, but if I don't put pen to paper, I at least run through the mental checklist of how am I doing? Can we slow our roll for a second? Our thoughts have been really loud, the noise of the day we are in bed or it's first thing in the morning, how am I feeling? How do I want to feel? What can I do about the way I'm feeling right now? To take care of myself? That's simply. All this is is just that, quieting the noise at least for a couple minutes a day.

  Speaker 1:

  9:55

  So there's thing number one. Number two and again I am human. I say these things as here are habits, not things that I did every single day during this hard season. But number two is prioritizing sleep above all else. Has my sleep been great? No, but making sure that I'm in bed with the lights out at a time that allows me the opportunity to sleep at least seven and a half hours. So notice my words here giving myself the opportunity to sleep seven and a half hours. There is a fantastic book called why we Sleep and they talk about sleep opportunity. So when we say, okay, we need to aim for at least seven hours of sleep a night, we need to give ourselves the opportunity for more than that. So getting in bed and with seven and a half hours, eight hours to give yourself at least the seven hours sleep.

  Speaker 1:

  10:41

  One big piece of this was forcing myself not to continue giving up sleep for books, you guys. I love to read so so much. One, two, three books a week. I will shirk sleep in a heartbeat to finish a good book. If I'm sucked into a story, especially like murder mysteries and thrillers, my God, it's hard to put them down. Reading in and of itself is not a bad thing, but in this season where I know I need more sleep, I know I'm pushing myself past. When I need to, we put the book down, we put the Kindle down. When I sleep enough, I can tell how much better I handle stress, processing emotions, and I don't tend to feel the pull to raid the kitchen for all the carbs as often.

  Speaker 1:

  11:21

  I try to keep that focus on, like I said, sleeping at least seven hours a night. That was the main thing. But some of the other sleep hygiene practices and again these are all in that why we Sleep book. So you know if you're into reading that one is a good one. It's pretty dense, it can be dry at times, but the information in it was fantastic. There's my plug for my book of the week. But some other sleep hygiene practices are going to bed and getting up within 30 minutes of the same time each day. I fail at this so hard I try, but there's just something to be said about being able to like, roll over and cuddle for an extra hour on the weekends. Sorry to my friends that listen, that have kids, because I know that sleeping in is not a thing for you anymore, apologies.

  Speaker 1:

  12:01

  Another thing is having as dark of a room as possible or wearing a sleep mask along the lines of light, avoiding screen time for at least 30 minutes before bedtime and going back to reading. I still haven't figured out if my Kindle paperweight counts as screen time, but I still read before bed. Cutting off caffeine by a certain point in the day, I think it's at least four to six hours before bedtime. For me it's noon. If I drink coffee past noon, I'm done, for I'm wide awake at 2am and it's not fun. And then, lastly, keeping the room cool. I think the temperature was like 64 degrees or something like that, and thinking about it still being summertime and still being hot, I feel like it's a very privileged thing to be like keep your room cool in the summertime because we have AC, we have a massive power bill, but our bedroom is on the second floor and even with great heating cooling system, the upstairs is always hotter. So there's that, okay.

  Speaker 1:

  12:54

  So that's point number two, prioritizing sleep. Understanding the importance, we inherently already know this, and so I feel silly bringing it up, but it is one of those things that tends to go out the window. Especially high stress times, it's sometimes hard to sleep at all, it's hard to turn off the brain, and that's where maybe that daily check-in before bed and then giving yourself the opportunity to sleep more can be helpful. But I don't want to be dismissive. Sleep can be hard when you're stressed.

  Speaker 1:

  13:21

  And then habit number three is spending time with humans who fill my cup and actually reaching out to them. When stress gets high, it is so easy to pull back and not reach out to humans that love you the most. I'm 100% guilty of this. I don't ever want to burden others or seem like a big baby who can't manage her stress. I avoid calling and maybe I avoid texting friends that I know would listen. I know that care, but there's only so much that you can fit in a day sometimes.

  Speaker 1:

  13:53

  But here's the thing the people who are in your corner want to be there for you in the good seasons and the bad. They're willing to listen, they're willing to be that sounding board, that listening ear, the shoulder for you to cry on if you need to, the person to give you a hug. Being social might feel like a lot when you're going through a hard time. So that's why I specifically said spend time with people who fill your cup, not the people who are energy trains, who take a lot to be around, the ones that you vibe with. If you will, they're going to be happy to be that person or that presence for you when you need it To be that phone call, that text message, that private podcast of a 15-minute voice memo to tell them the crazy work situation going on, the family situation, whatever you're going through or figuring out. Oh, my god, I'm in my mid-30s and I feel like I'm having a a full on existential crisis and I don't know what to do next. And they're there to listen because they care about you, just like you are that person for other people. This is a reminder for myself as much as for you. There are people in your life, whether it's friends or whether it's a family, the people that care.

  Speaker 1:

  14:58

  I had my dad recently call me and again remember hard season for the last month. He calls and he says hey, I'm just calling because I wanted to make sure your phone wasn't broken. And I laughed and he said because I haven't heard from you in a few weeks and I that's not normal and I wanted to make sure you were doing okay. And I hadn't even realized that I hadn't contacted him because I'm notorious for just sending fun little text messages and saying hi and love you, or pictures that I take, things that we're doing or where we're going. So no, your phone's not broken. You have people that love and care and support. You have a coffee, go for a walk, call them, voice, memo them. I would say, text them.

  Speaker 1:

  15:33

  Maybe texting is a place to start, but there is something to be said about verbalizing, verbalizing the things that we're going through or the things that we are feeling, because oftentimes, just being able to verbalize it, they don't seem as big or as hard. Or maybe, when you say things out loud, you can start processing and suddenly go, oh my gosh, this might be a solution and our brains are so good at telling us that we need to handle things alone that we don't need to burden other people or add things to their plate. But we're wired for human connection and that sense of belonging is a basic human need. It really is, and that's something that I guess just an aside for me in this season. I am so fortunate to have this wonderful neighborhood.

  Speaker 1:

  16:15

  We live on a cul-de-sac and we've been here three and a half years now and I would say in the last year and a half we have really connected with a handful of other families in our neighborhood where it has brought this sense of belonging. We have summertime wood-fired pizza oven nights, barbecues on holidays and we have little ones in the neighborhood that we get to basically be their aunt and uncle and I love it so much because we don't have kids yet. So, from the cool auntie perspective of I just had a really stressful day for 10 different reasons. And I'm coming home from work, just cup is empty, ready to be done with the day, and as I'm coming around the corner into my neighborhood, one of the little ones is outside with their parents and her face lights up when I see her and I'm like, okay, maybe things aren't so bad in the world. This sweet little girl is happy to see me, you know, and it's that sense of belonging to this community, but also sweet, cute faces melt your heart. So you have people in your world, utilize them, know that they care about you. That's my point.

  Speaker 1:

  17:16

  So, summarizing these three habits this season for you might be difficult, and I never, ever am trying to talk down from whatever you may be going through, but these habits are meant as a support. You have number one, a daily check-in with yourself. So connecting back with yourself, and then skipping over Number three, connecting with others. These connection points are so important to give us a sense of, let's say, an anchor, a place, because when we get stressed and we push away or we pull away from things that matter, we're like a boat that's drifting. Have these anchors in place, connect with yourself, connect with others and then prioritize that piece of self-care, of that sleep every single night, because this season might be difficult, but that's just it. It's a season, it's not your entire life. Things might feel hard right now and none of what I said today is meant to take away from the emotions you're feeling, but do spend a moment or two thinking about what kind of non-negotiables you want to set during this time, things you know will help take care of you in the big picture, even though the last thing you want to do right now is make sure you drink enough water, sleep enough, take your daily shower, walk the dog every day, right, all of those things. But you are worthy of love and respect and care, no matter the season and no matter what is going on in your life. So that's it.

  Speaker 1:

  18:36

  That is episode 37. That is what was on my heart this week for you to hear. I am a person in your corner. If you don't have someone that you feel like you can have an open conversation with, my DMs are open. There's a way to send a message through the podcast. Happy to talk, happy to listen. Friends, I hope you have a great weekend if you're listening to this on Friday, or a great day whenever you are listening to this. Remember there are Sturdy Girl shirts. Please at least check them out. I'm really proud of them. It's been such a labor of love. But otherwise, we'll catch you next Friday for another episode. Bye, friends.

36. From Powerlifting to Marathons with Lexi Brandon

To go from a powerlifting competition to a trail marathon at elevation in 7 months. That's what this week's guest did as she embraces her mission to stop letting her body hold her back from living the life she wants.

In this episode, we’ll cover

• How to embrace each season

• What it means to be gritty

• How you can go from a powerlifting competition (and squatting 300#) to running a trail marathon with >4,000ft of vert!

• so much more

• Listen On Spotify

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• Listen on Apple Podcasts

  Listen here

• Full Transcript

  Speaker 1:

  0:09

  Hello, friend, and welcome to Sturdy Girl, a podcast focused on strength, not size, where you will hear conversations around flexible body image, cultivating confidence and being a resilient human in both body and mind. Sturdy Girl is the podcast where we shift the focus away from your appearance and on to living the big, rad life you deserve. I'm your host, jess Heiss, dropping episodes every Friday, as we help you make the most of your Sturdy Girl summer. That is, reclaiming body confidence, wearing the swimsuit and doing the kinds of activities you want without letting your body or appearance hold you back. Hello, friends, and welcome back to another episode of Sturdy Girl. I am joined by a former guest co-host, a client and a very good friend, lexi. Thanks for being on with us. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here, to be here another round. We don't have lav mics clipped to our shirts this time.

  Speaker 2:

  1:07

  Kind of a bummer. I like the recording in my kitchen, but it's good to see your face over.

  Speaker 1:

  1:10

  Zoom too Honestly, I'd rather be in person. I think originally we were supposed to record this in person, but we had way too much fun on our retreat in Tahoe to make it happen it's true, we were having way too much fun to sit down and record but Tahoe to make it happen.

  Speaker 1:

  1:25

  It's true we were having way too much fun to sit down and record, but we're still making it happen. We didn't have AC in that house, and so we had how many floor fans going at all times that it just I don't know that logistically we could have made it work.

  Speaker 2:

  1:35

  It was the loudest and hottest Airbnb ever. We could have done it on our kayaks.

  Speaker 1:

  1:40

  There you go, just like the refreshing sounds of the lake and the water as we paddle, and you're my rudder. Exactly. Why don't we just do that? Would have been fun, but no, for many reasons I have you on the podcast. Obviously, I enjoy chatting with you, but you just ran your first marathon. I got to be there and it was such a rad experience. But you also just embody everything that a sturdy girl is. You are gritty. You make every focus on living your fullest, raddest, biggest life. You don't let things like your body or appearance concerns hold you back from setting goals and smashing them, and I just think it's amazing and I'm really stoked to have you with me.

  Speaker 2:

  2:23

  I'm excited to be here and it was so fun to have you there for the race. Yeah, my first marathon was really incredible, but part of it was having you there both as a coach and as a friend.

  Speaker 1:

  2:33

  It's such an interesting thing like being a coach, but also, as our friendship has grown and I think, like saying this to you many times over, what I'm like, okay, do I have my coach hat on or my friend hat right now, like I it I'm like, okay, do I have my coach hat on or my friend hat right now? Like I want to make sure that I'm respecting boundaries but also taking care of you and all the things that we coach on. Talking about coaching, though, you wrote up this like fantastic post-race recap of just walking yourself back through getting up the day of the race, how the race went, ways that you coped during the race, music you listen to podcasts, audiobooks but my question for you is what was the biggest lesson or biggest takeaway, biggest thing you learned from your first marathon?

  Speaker 2:

  3:14

  I think what I really learned about myself is that I'm capable of so much more than I ever thought. It was a hard race and I didn't know how it was going to go and, like we talked about many times, I honestly did not know how it was going to go and, like we talked about many times, I honestly did not know if I was going to finish. It felt sometimes like a coin flip of, after all this hard work I'd put in, like am I going to finish? And then not only did I finish, but like I put down some of my best mile times. Like by no means to go out and win this race, but I won it for me, I won what it meant for me. I was putting down some pretty fast mile times. At the end, it was really important for me to finish. I think the biggest takeaway is that I'm way more capable and my body is way more capable than I think it is sometimes.

  Speaker 1:

  3:56

  Or that you give it credit for. Yeah, for context, on your first marathon, we started at 9,700 feet elevation. It was in Silverton, colorado. You had what? 4,500 feet of vert in the race on deep roads. We're not just talking like. You went out and ran your local city marathon that's flat and paved.

  Speaker 1:

  4:15

  Your first full was a gritty suffer fest. In so many ways it was gorgeous, don't get me wrong, but I remember you coming to me for, like, this is the marathon I want to do this one. And I was like, are you sure? Okay, I support this, but I just have, I have to make sure I have to do my due diligence. And so, not only picking your first marathon, picking a hard, freaking marathon, but also throwing down, like you negative, split that race so hard. It was your last. Your last, what? Four miles, when you were like, oh, yep, nope, gotta dial this in and just zoomed those last few miles, which was hilarious because, like, your Garmin didn't update and we were all like where is she? Is she? Okay, what's happening? What do we need? And then boom.

  Speaker 2:

  4:58

  I pop out and I'm going way faster and further along than they probably would have guessed and you still had it in you to sprint to the finish line.

  Speaker 1:

  5:05

  I think that's what blew my mind the most. I remember finishing my first full and seeing the finish line and being like, oh yeah, I'm going to sprint. And then my legs were like little stumps and they're like I can't move.

  Speaker 2:

  5:15

  I was shocked how good I fell all the way through up until the end and then after that not so great, but it was really interesting. I'd say that this is one of, like, the most things I've been committed to and was like probably the most important to me that I committed to that. I didn't necessarily realize how important it was to me until in that moment, right like it was so important to me to finish and it was so important for me to make that cut off, and I found a lot of different levels within myself that I didn't know were there because it was important to me and I did commit to this big, cool goal, and so to find those deeper levels was pretty fun.

  Speaker 1:

  5:54

  It's one thing to pick the race and it's one thing to start chipping away at working towards that race. But come race day it's a big and scary thing. Can you speak to like the self-talk at all during the race or in training or during the ramp up of mileage, to go from a half marathon in April to your full in July?

  Speaker 2:

  6:13

  Yeah, there's a lot of self-talk and I think that people think that like it's either good self-talk or bad self-talk, but I had so much of both. For the most part I was in my own little world and I was proud of myself for being on my feet for five hours and I was proud of myself and was able to compare to myself because I did train alone and I was looking at my own splits, that I was able to build self-confidence and really talk to myself. And I think the benefit of these big training endeavors is that you're just out there. You're out there for so long that you get to control what you think about and what you do, and so it's a lot easier to be positive and to believe in yourself when you're not comparing to other people. And I noticed, like the self-talk, the only moments I had in the race that were a little bit harder was there was a 50K option as well.

  Speaker 2:

  7:06

  That were a little bit harder was there was a 50k option as well. And so the 50k is all like past s marathoners and they were all running and they were looking so good and they were so fit and they were so skinny and I was making that mean a lot of stuff about myself, that it didn't mean all I had to do was get out there and run my race. And so once I settled in and was confident and about what my day belonged, as my mindset improved.

  Speaker 1:

  7:26

  You're such a badass. I love hearing how you made it through. And then, okay, just out of curiosity, like remind me what book did you listen to during the race? For a little while at least.

  Speaker 2:

  7:35

  I listened to most of Shoestrong by Sally McRae and I found that the audiobooks, especially like about inspiring runners and stuff, really does do wonders for your mindset.

  Speaker 1:

  7:47

  So sometimes when you're out there for a while, you can just tune out and that can be a version of that self-talk. But I guess I deviated away from my actual question, which was on the self-talk piece and how much that has progressed is just, it's not always going to be positive and sometimes it's negative and it's just that piece of like how do you? You keep yourself going? And I think you had a lot of things just as far as like how you kept putting one foot in front of the other and kept going and kept just telling yourself you're a gritty bitch and pushing through and knowing, like I have done the training necessary for this. You also got interviewed by the people who put on the race afterwards and they loved your face glitter and your hair paint. How did that play into your training? Because I know you did hair paint a few times. You have. I don't even remember what the heck that sunscreen was called, like unicorn snot or whatever that has glitter in it, like just making it fun.

  Speaker 2:

  8:38

  When we first started talking about this goal and I realized that, hey, this isn't just any marathon, this is a hard marathon. Realistically, the day of the marathon, I'm gonna be out there for 10 hours. And then, realistically, what does that look like for training? And that looks like five hour training runs on the weekend, plus many hours during the week. Well, what do I want from that?

  Speaker 2:

  8:58

  And I decided to go into this training block with, like, how can I have the most fun? How can I show up and just love every minute of it? Is it exploring new trails? Like what is it? And I actually went to a girls on the run event and they all had all this hair paint and I was like, okay, that is it. That is how I'm going to have the most fun. I'm going to show up with all the glitter, all the like hair paint, anything I can do to remind myself to have fun. And what I thought was really interesting is, in a race, how many smiles I brought to people's faces when they saw me with the glitter. I had so many comments and so many people tell me how much they love the glitter, and I love that. I could also, like inspire other people to have more fun. It's not serious. All we're doing is out there putting our feet in front of the other like have some fun.

  Speaker 1:

  9:48

  You brought so much joy to people and the fact that you're like I did this glitter for myself, but if this can make you enjoy this race for just a moment, I'll have done my job exactly. I also just want to get face glitter. Now it's the best.

  Speaker 2:

  9:58

  And then you, once you put it on, it's always with you. You'll find it on your phone. You'll find it everywhere so you'll.

  Speaker 1:

  10:03

  You'll find it everywhere. So you'll always remember. This is 100% not related to anything Sturdy Girl, but Blake and I used to do the World Naked Bike Ride here in Portland and one year I was like I want to just have glitter everywhere. I'm going to just like do spray on glitter and it's going to be awesome. I swear to you, I found glitter in our house for the next three years. It was everywhere you just have joy forever more once you commit.

  Speaker 2:

  10:25

  Is that what it is?

  Speaker 1:

  10:25

  There's some quote about glitter that I'm blanking on right now, but, yeah, you find it forever Okay. So I was just thinking about when you first started working with me about a year and a half ago and you came to me with like a legit list of goals and of bucket list things that you wanted to do and how much you just wanted to maximize life and live it to the fullest. 2023 saw a lot of firsts. You did the enchantments, you did half dome, you did a 10K, you did your first power lifting meet, you did an international trip. I love how much you sit down and you're like, okay, these are all the things I want. And then you have people like me who are the asshole reality checkers that are like, okay, how many things can we realistically do in a timeline?

  Speaker 1:

  11:08

  But two things with this one, I just want to highlight the fact that you went from doing your first powerlifting meet, pring all three lifts, making everything look like a warmup, like I've still bummed that we weren't able, like we full sent every single lift on your first meet, but you meet, every single one of those lifts look like a warmup. I look back and I'm like, oh my God, we still don't know the limits of your strength. We never found that, we never explored it and I just anyways. Okay, so powerlifting meet late fall last year, so that was November. We turn around. You run a half in April and a full in July. Like to just shift those modalities is so freaking rad, and the ability to excel in both and enjoy both and like explore what your body is capable is really freaking inspiring.

  Speaker 2:

  11:53

  It's really incredible. It's so much fun to test the limits and see where they are and, like I would say that in some degree to both. I didn't quite get, maybe, to my limit, I didn't get the power lifting me and I still felt pretty good after this one, and so it's really fun to like start digging into those levels of like okay, where is the maximum? And also see how it shifts over time. I love personal growth and I love goals and, like you said, I love to come up with like 100 goals for every year, but I'm always shocked about how many of them I can achieve and everyone can achieve. Like a year is actually a long time, depending on how you break it down, and there's seasons for everything, and so you can have a powerlifting season and squat 300 pounds and then you have another season where you run a marathon. There's seasons and time for everything, even if my brain wants to tell me that's not true, did?

  Speaker 1:

  12:43

  you feel comfortable with the concept of seasons for things before we started working together?

  Speaker 2:

  12:48

  No, because I like to do everything at the same time, right Like I'm pretty bad at delayed gratification, and so once I want something, I want to do it now. And so what do you mean? I can't lose 70 pounds and PR my squat and run a marathon simultaneously.

  Speaker 1:

  13:06

  Yeah.

  Speaker 2:

  13:06

  I want to do it all, and I want to do it all now.

  Speaker 1:

  13:09

  Can you tell me a little bit more about what you have learned about seasons I?

  Speaker 2:

  13:12

  think seasons actually make it realistic to do everything that you want to do. It allows you to like, have the mental and physical capacity to do all the things. Like. You just can't do all the things all the time, there's just not enough hours in a day, but working in seasons does allow there to be time for everything. When I look at my goals for the next year, there's seasons for it. Like you know, if I have half of them on my list, I can't just go do it today because I put it on my list today. Like there's seasons in nature and there's seasons in life and you adapt.

  Speaker 1:

  13:45

  I really love the concept of seasons and it's something that I really leaned into gosh two or three years ago because it gave me permission to not try to give 100% to multiple things, because I have been running and I have been lifting for many years and I love both, and there are seasons for increasing strength and there's seasons for improving running and there are seasons for playing outside and maximizing all the time on the trails that I can. But I had a really hard time with letting things go because then I'm like that thing's not as important to me and I don't want it to seem like that, because I love lifting and I love running equally. And so the concept of seasons is like I think one of my biggest realizations is like three years or so years ago I was working with a client and she got pregnant and she had her first kid. All along this process she was running and lifting as best as she could.

  Speaker 1:

  14:35

  Baby comes and then it's like it's the rebuild, like I'm going to say rebuild, but coming back to exercise and movement post baby looks different for everyone, and not a single time during that process as a coach did I ever think like, well, she doesn't care about running or lifting anymore. Like what is this? And instead it was this realization. I was like doing a check in with her and I was like this is your season of life. You are taking care of another human and you're figuring out how your body is responding and healing after giving birth to this human. And now we're coming back to running because we got the all clear and we're going back to it again.

  Speaker 1:

  15:08

  Never once was my brain like they don't care about this anymore, and so I was able to reflect on myself and be like oh OK, so I can still value these things and just have different seasons of life because that brand new mom is not turning around and running a marathon. I really lean into the importance of that, especially as adults with busy, multifaceted lives. Having those seasons gives us permission to go all in on something while maintaining and giving less energy to something else and letting that be okay. There's a lot less brain drama.

  Speaker 2:

  15:38

  Exactly. I have a brilliant coach too that always asks me like what are you making it mean about you? And so I think about that a lot, because one of the things that like I intentionally let go for this marathon cycle but then was also simultaneously like beating myself up about, is like I let my apartment get dirty. Like I knew that training like have an entire day of every single weekend be to train I knew that it was going to be a lot and there was going to be a season where my apartment's been cleaner Luckily I don't have a kid to raise right now lot and there was going to be a season where my apartment's been cleaner Luckily I don't have a kid to raise right now. So like I was able to develop or like set more time aside for the marathon. But some things do slip and it just wasn't a season to be like super meticulously tidy and that was OK and I didn't need to make that mean anything about myself other than I had different priorities.

  Speaker 1:

  16:26

  That's exactly it. I was just thinking when you're talking about, yeah, your long runs were a whole weekend day because you made an effort to go up to high elevation to see how your body responded. So there was all the drive time, all the prep for food and hydration and all of those pieces, some of the times you were going up to high elevation and doing overnights. That takes a lot of time and effort. And, yeah, speaking to cleanliness of the home, I, growing up, had a family that was very, very meticulous. We cleaned the whole house just about every single day and when I moved out on my own I would still clean so frequently.

  Speaker 1:

  17:02

  And I remember my grandma and my aunt both, I'm going to say, ganged up on me, but I mean it in the most loving way and they were like what would happen if you left the dishes in your sink overnight so that you could go out to dinner with us? What would happen if you skipped vacuuming your house for one day and went hiking instead? What if you lived your life? Is there anything catastrophic that's going to happen? And there was like this really weird letting go of this season of life. I don't need to be able to like lick my kitchen floor because it's so clean. I would rather go live and do things and maybe 15 plus years later I think I've like still kept with that where I'm like do I want to clean my house or do I want to go adventure?

  Speaker 2:

  17:43

  I think tradeoffs are hard and I even was talking about that in seasons. But I think it is an important thing to think about when you do have some big goals in the season, Like you're not going to be able to do everything at its max, Like there are seasons of prioritizing one thing over the other and what can you let fade off a little bit and not make it mean about anything about yourself. It's also easier to cope with when you've made the conscious choice Like okay, I made the choice that I'm doing this over this. It does help with the mindset drama that can happen when you're in different seasons.

  Speaker 1:

  18:13

  That's such a great mindset piece and, with the what you were saying to the question I love to ask is what are you making this mean about yourself? There are so many things that this can apply to. I saw a Brad Stolberg quote and it was something along the lines of not identifying yourself with the things that go on inside your head so the thoughts and the feelings and all of those. And so what we talk about? Noticing thoughts and not attaching to them. And when we get sometimes in these busier seasons or when these shifts, when you are having to make that conscious choice of like, right now, cleaning my apartment is not the priority. The priority is preparing myself for this marathon and yet still having those thoughts that come up of the mental drama of like, well, what am I making this mean about myself? That my apartment's not clean and then having to, like, stop that spiral.

  Speaker 1:

  18:59

  That's such a powerful question to ask. It is my favorite. We were talking about your big rad list of life things and 2023, we talked about all the things. 2024, we've tackled first marathon. You had half marathon with me and a couple of friends in Maui. What's next?

  Speaker 2:

  19:18

  Oh, the big question everyone asks no really exciting things to come. I'm eyeing a 50k with you next year, but I've now for years like been wanting to get into a weight loss season and it just hasn't been the time, it hasn't been the season, and it's finally the season. So we're going into a little bit of a weight loss season and then back, while maintaining a half marathon base because I still love running and getting out on trails, and then we'll ramp up for a 50k next year and then we'll see what happens. After that that. I've been eyeing a few triathlons but we'll see.

  Speaker 1:

  19:51

  Which is so rad because that means incorporating two more modalities into your life and exploring that it's fun to become a beginner again. How many people say that truthfully?

  Speaker 2:

  20:00

  how many adults are like fuck yeah, I love being a beginner at things I think it's definitely an attitude shift because, yeah, like there's definitely some days that are hard. I took a pottery class and I did 18 weeks of pottery and I'm still so bad at it. And so, like, the process of being new can be really hard, but having a positive attitude and outlook on it, like once you stop learning, life's basically over right, and so, like, how can you embrace being new, being a beginner and learning to live your big rad?

  Speaker 1:

  20:30

  life. That was my point is, like most people, most adults don't want to be a beginner at things. They don't want to try to learn new skills because they don't want to suck at something. I'm trying to remember what, if it was a I want to say it was a teacher growing up that always used to say if you're not learning, you're dying. And so to put yourself into the beginner seat of trying new things, of pottery, of learning to, I was going to say learning to ride a bike. You know how to ride a bike, but efficiently learn to ride a bike for time, for distance, on hills, whatever, to get better at swimming and improve those skills and be a beginner.

  Speaker 1:

  21:02

  I'm sitting across here as your coach right now looking at triathlon certifications so that I can keep coaching you through this process. So I get to learn a ton of new things too. I think it's really rad to have that mindset of fuck around and find out. Truly, in the time that I've gotten to know you, you embody that so freaking well. I'm just like I've always wanted to learn this. So let's do it, let's find out, let's mess around. I don't know how it's going to go, but I want to try it, and I think that's so awesome to just continue exploring in small and big ways.

  Speaker 2:

  21:33

  I always figure like, why not try? Like the worst that could happen is that I decide I don't like it and then move on.

  Speaker 1:

  21:39

  Yeah Right, you try it out for a little while and you're like, yeah, this swimming thing not for me.

  Speaker 2:

  21:44

  And, honestly, that is something that, like I am exploring is like what happens if I actually don't like it, because a lot of the things I have tried, I do end up liking and I do go, end up going down the rabbit hole and so coming up with like, oh, I'm still not good at this and maybe I don't want to be good at it and maybe that's something I don't actually want to do as part of the exploration process.

  Speaker 1:

  22:06

  And if you just end up falling in love with exploring the process of triathlon, you have so many modalities under your belt at that point Running, biking, swimming, lifting how are you going to?

  Speaker 2:

  22:16

  manage your time? I don't know. I was just thinking. I'm like I'm going to have to figure out how to make it a job, because it's just too much fun.

  Speaker 1:

  22:23

  And you're going to have to figure out how to like involve Hank on all these adventures figure out how to like involve Hank on all these adventures 100%.

  Speaker 2:

  22:31

  We got the new leash so you can come running more with me and I'll have to get like a little sidecar for him for the bike That'll be so cute.

  Speaker 1:

  22:35

  Oh my gosh, is he much of a swimmer?

  Speaker 2:

  22:37

  I can't remember he loves to swim, but I recently learned this weekend that he doesn't like when I swim. Did he get really worried? Yes, he was very worried and like whining at the side of the lake and then when I actually went in, he also had to go in and like swim like circles around me my personal lifeguard.

  Speaker 1:

  22:53

  So you go on your swims in open water and just bring him with you. He'll just swim right alongside you. You can use him as like a weighted vest Don't they have like doggy life jackets? So then you can just like drag him along with you. I think that's what I should do the best. Boy, finn, gets really worried if I'm in a body of water or when we're on the trail and we stop moving. He's like mom, what are we doing? Let's go, come on, why'd you stop moving? The herding tendencies so adorable, I know, right For children.

  Speaker 1:

  23:21

  Okay, shifting a little bit away from just what your big and scary goals we talked about triathlon and messing around with that and like finding out about those skill levels. But 50K, obviously like we're looking at doing one together. So I'm stoked for many reasons, but I think it's a rad continuing our love of trails and hopefully getting you out to the Pacific Northwest for a race, so that'll be so much fun. I'm so stoked. So, shifting a couple of things I wanted to talk about body image a little bit.

  Speaker 1:

  23:50

  You and I, when I was out visiting, had talked a little bit about just the growth and body image and the shifts and things that happened. I think, if we take it back to like where things started, if you will, before you worked with me, you worked with a nutrition coach and initially your intent was to cut and then, as you started learning, was it more about nutrition, more about life, more about your goals. I know when we started working together it was more about like I want to fuel my adventures. Now let's lean into seasons. So I'm so curious on that body image, mindset, nutrition front, if you could speak more on that at all.

  Speaker 2:

  24:24

  Yeah, of course, I think, growing up with kind of oh shoot, I shouldn't go do the big rad things I wanted to do, to do the marathon, to do half dome and I think the biggest shift has been that, like, the size of my body doesn't dictate what I can and can't do, and that has been the most pivotal shift I've had. And learning how nutrition impacts my ability to do this stuff, to feel myself properly, is the only way you're going to make it through a marathon.

  Speaker 1:

  25:16

  No, I think that there's a lot of growth that comes with that. We talked about mindset around nutrition quite a bit during the prep for the marathon, especially because a lot of it was like all right, we need to work on your hourly carb consumption, because carbs become important in endurance events. Learning to train our stomachs is equally as important as training our mind and training our body. You had to mess around with okay, do I like gels? Do I like blocks? Do I like candy? Whole foods, what do I want? And that shift that you've had towards nutrition during your first marathon Can you speak more to that at all?

  Speaker 2:

  25:50

  It's like night and day difference. Like you mentioned, I tried all like the quote, unquote, good for you. Or like all the gels, all the goos, and I find them all disgusting. They're just like not really my jam. But what I realized is if you look at like the makeup of a lot of those things and you look at the nutrition on like nerds gummy clusters, they're basically the same and I can get down with eating nerds gummy clusters like all day, every day, and so embracing that.

  Speaker 2:

  26:19

  I used to be someone that felt like I couldn't have sweets in my house and I'm like I'm not talking about like a few years ago, I'm talking about like six months ago. I felt like I couldn't have a lot of that stuff in the house because I would just eat all of it. But the thing about like training for a marathon is it just becomes like part of life. Right, it's no longer necessarily like a treat food, it turns into an all the time food and it's around. I use it to make up my carbs for my run and then, honestly, at the end of the day you get sick of it. I never would have guessed I'd be like someone force feeding myself like twix at the top of the mountain because I have to get carbs in. But that's who I've become, and even post race I was a little nervous about having all the stuff left over in the house, but it's still. It's just fuel.

  Speaker 1:

  27:09

  It can be fun and it can be something I have after dinner, but it also is just like true snacks.

  Speaker 2:

  27:11

  Yeah, your pantry is phenomenally stocked with all the good stuff, and like trying out different stuff because, like I said, like I never guessed I would have been forcing myself like you don't know what's gonna taste good or sound good at different areas. So having like a diversity of carbs is always fun okay, so nerd, so nerds, so nerds, gummy clusters.

  Speaker 1:

  27:30

  What were your other go-tos?

  Speaker 2:

  27:32

  I tried to do something like sweet and then something salty, so I really liked either Cheez-Its or Goldfish those are my go-to for that and then I also like kept a candy bar or two in there Jelly beans, sour Patch, kids. But what I learned is those liquid carbs always come in handy. One of the things that happened in the marathon is that I must have been grinding my teeth for the first couple of miles and I didn't realize it, which caused my teeth to be really sensitive, and so I had started having a really hard time eating. And so the liquid carbs. So I like scratch. The race had tailwind. It also had caffeine in it, so I was extra peppy and just drank a bunch of Tailwind for some carbs.

  Speaker 1:

  28:14

  Dude, that's where your speedy last few miles came from. It was that caffeine hitting you.

  Speaker 2:

  28:19

  Endless caffeine for like the last 20 miles. Yes.

  Speaker 1:

  28:23

  Those are such solid choices and like I really appreciate the feed and being able to get sample packs from them when you wanted to try different gels. I have a few other clients that were like I've never tried gels and then end up quickly switching and they're like okay, tailwind and scratch is where it's at, or whole food options or those things. I think I did gels bars and liquid nutrition.

  Speaker 2:

  28:45

  I got like sample packs of all of them and like tested out different ones and then really realized that I hated them all. So I was just going to nerds clusters and whatever else I had to get at the grocery store. It was basically like my preteen self's dream getting to stock up on Coke and Kool-Aid and all the gummy things. Oh, I don't know how I forgot Rice Krispie Treats, because I still eat Rice Krispie Treats all the time. They're still like my biggest pre-run carb source. And then also applesauce packets. They're similar to a goo, where you don't have to chew, but they taste way better.

  Speaker 1:

  29:20

  I never want to put my personal preferences on clients at all, but I feel like on the podcast I can talk about this without it being like. This is what you should try, because I'm the same way. I think goos are disgusting, but applesauce pouches are my go-to Rice Krispie Treats pre-run, intra-run, pre-lift Gosh during peak powerlifting season. I mean, my lifts were like two plus hours long and so I was like going inside in the middle and like eating a rice krispies treat to keep going. But yeah, I'm the same way. Whole foods, liquid carbs all of those are way more accessible than goo.

  Speaker 2:

  29:51

  And cheaper. So I know running tends to be a more like accessible sport, but it can definitely not be like race registrations have gotten expensive. Shoes are insane, you know. When you goos are two dollars a pouch and liquid carbs and all that stuff, like just a reminder, like you can make it as affordable as you need to like, don't let that be the reason to stop. Don't let that be the reason you don't go out and do something I did mini a race on salted gummy bears.

  Speaker 1:

  30:19

  I didn't even know those were good, they're not. You just like ziplock bag with some of your gummy bears and then just dump a little salt in there, electrolytes and your carbs, like we're good. Yeah, that was my like. Go to race. I have a race picture somewhere I'll have to dig it up from 10 years ago, but it was the muddiest, gnarliest 25 K I've ever done Mud ankle to knee deep the whole race and everyone was just brown. And I came out of an aid station with a handful of gummy bears and the picture is me mid-slip. It's like a cloud of gummy bears around me.

  Speaker 1:

  30:51

  I think you're gonna have to post this for that episode. I gotta figure out where the heck that is, because that was like four laptops ago. So we'll see if I can dig that up. Oh, my gosh. Okay, we have talked all things running, marathon, the eating piece. We have talked about next goals. Holy crap, we've covered a lot of ground. Is there one takeaway for living a big rad life? As far as confidence, body image, anything that you could give the audience, what would it be?

  Speaker 2:

  31:18

  I really think the biggest takeaway is just to just go do the thing. Don't let whatever it is hold you back. I'm not a small human and I really never have been, and so like I let that dictate what I could do for so many years or what I could post or what I could wear, and the biggest tangible takeaway is just go do the thing. Don't let an insecurity or a belief that you have about yourself be the reason that you don't go do it.

  Speaker 1:

  31:45

  I see you. I see you doing all the things rocking the freaking bikini, running the races, climbing the mountains, lifting the weights, doing the things. Thank you, friend. Thank you for sharing your story and encouraging people to just freaking, get out there, because it's true, there's so much we've taught you and I have talked a lot about mental drama before we hit record today, but there's a lot of mental drama around letting your body hold you back, not just because you're like, worried if you're capable, but more along the lines of like, well, runners don't look like this, do they? I don't look like this type of person that climbs mountains. I don't look like the type of person that does this oh, can I really wear a bikini? The thoughts that we have when you're like, do I want to do the thing? Do I want to try to do the thing? Okay, let's go.

  Speaker 2:

  32:30

  Exactly and you don't have to change how you look to be able to go do 99% of things you can do as is right now, with some training or no training if you want it to be a misogi? Probably would not recommend but read the comfort crisis. Do your research and do a misogi.

  Speaker 1:

  32:46

  Yeah, go read the comfort crisis. I just recently read it. Lexi read it a while ago and I just. There are so many hilarious references in there. I don't know as a coach, I don't know. Can I advocate for a misogi?

  Speaker 2:

  32:57

  I think there's a level of like baseline fitness that you should have before you go Encourage.

  Speaker 1:

  33:04

  Okay. So essentially, for those of you who haven't read the Comfort Crisis, a misogi is going out and doing something that you don't know that you can complete, something that is hard, something that is physically and mentally challenging, so they talk about like crazy feats. One of the guys decided to do rim to rim to rim when his longest run was like 16 miles, which makes my like coach brain just scream. But it was Misogi. He got really uncomfortable and tested his limits and saw how much further he could go beyond what he thought his limits were. But was it the smartest idea? I don't know.

  Speaker 2:

  33:39

  I always think it's interesting because, like I don't always know, going into something that's gonna be a misogi, there's been two things in my life that I feel like have been there at that level and one of them was the enchantments, which I did not go into thinking was like a 50 50, like can I complete this which is like the whole thing with a misogi like it has to be a coin flip. Turns out like it was kind of a coin flip. It was very hard. And then I also had one training run that like again, I did not anticipate to be a Masogi and literally take everything I had that day. That's always. My question on the Masogi is like, how do you actually adjust for that?

  Speaker 1:

  34:12

  I'm still figuring that out. Just get out of my comfort zone more.

  Speaker 2:

  34:15

  I think that's a general vibe of what he was going for, but he just took it another level.

  Speaker 1:

  34:24

  For sure. Okay, two other wrap-up questions, if you could choose one food to eat for the rest of your life.

  Speaker 2:

  34:27

  what would it be? Well, I feel like the easy answer is Nerds Gummy Clusters, because if that's the only thing I didn't get sick of, then that's probably it, but I'm a big sucker for ice cream and a waffle cone.

  Speaker 1:

  34:36

  Would you vary the ice cream flavors, or would you just like stick with one flavor?

  Speaker 2:

  34:39

  I mean, if that's allowed, I'd vary the flavor, but it would probably be some sort of like coffee flavor.

  Speaker 1:

  34:44

  Blake is looking into making a Vietnamese coffee ice cream right now. He's doing an ice cream base right now and we were talking about either Thai iced tea or Vietnamese coffee.

  Speaker 2:

  34:52

  You're just making it impossible not to come visit you, aren't you?

  Speaker 1:

  34:56

  Come visit me, just enticing you. We're just starting weekend pizza nights, again, red fired pizza. All right, I'm on my way. Yes, a third of the country away. It's fine, okay. And then last question we both love reading. Is there one book that you have given as a gift the most?

  Speaker 2:

  35:14

  and or recommended the most. Oh, that's actually not fair, because it's actually the Comfort Crisis is the book I have given the most. I give it to my like everyone in my family, and I end up recommending it quite a bit. It's like it's just such a good story. He's a really good storyteller and then the content, especially in this day and age, is just like super good we as humans have gotten so freaking soft.

  Speaker 1:

  35:37

  What the heck read this book.

  Speaker 2:

  35:38

  Stop being so soft and then you'll be in the rabbit hole of ultra running in no time. I support this.

  Speaker 1:

  35:44

  Is there a fiction book that's a standout one.

  Speaker 2:

  35:47

  I don't know if any fiction books come to mind. I love memoirs and like some of the memoirs that I've found really interesting, that I wouldn't have guessed that I'd recommend, and love are like the Paris Hilton memoir I thought was super good and Viola Davis her memoir they're both top tier.

  Speaker 1:

  36:05

  I love it. Okay, friend, I feel like we have covered so much ground in this episode. Is there anything else you want to add? I guess the only thing I'd like to add is I appreciate you so much.

  Speaker 2:

  36:15

  It was so great to have you out here and like the in-person support. If you don't have a coach for some of these big rad goals, definitely get yourself one, because it makes like a night and day difference and just go do the thing. Put it on a list, decide what season of life it fits in, be open to it being in a different season than you want now and go do the thing.

  Speaker 1:

  36:35

  Yeah, have someone like me who's like the I was going to say fun stealer, but the person who provides some direction and gives you the objectives for all of the big goals on the list.

  Speaker 2:

  36:46

  They can all be done, but maybe just not right now. Do the things, find the magic.

  Speaker 1:

  36:51

  There's so much out there, go find it. Thanks so much for being on, friend. This has been such an awesome conversation and I am stoked for us to sign up for our 50K and actually start training. I should say for me, actually start training. You are phenomenally already trained and I've just been half-assing my runs, so this will be good focus for me. But thank you for such a great interview and a good catch up. Thanks for having me on All right, friends. Thank you so much for listening to another episode of Sturdy Girl. We will catch you next Friday.

35. 5 Tips To Get Out of the Comparison Trap

What if I told you that I don' want you to stop comparing yourself to others? *insert side eye emoji* What if I told you that you can use comparison in a way that is actually beneficial? Friend, tune in to this week's episode to learn all about the types of comparison, the harm that it can cause, and 5 actionable tips for getting out of the comparison trap. These include:

• Develop awareness

• Accept the experience

• Reframe

• Tune in to yourself

• Work on self-mastery

• Cultivate your community

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• Full Transcript

  Speaker 1: 0:09

  Hello, friend, and welcome to Sturdy Girl, a podcast focused on strength, not size, where you will hear conversations around flexible body image, cultivating confidence and being a resilient human in both body and mind. Sturdy Girl is the podcast where we shift the focus away from your appearance and on to living the big, rad life you deserve. I'm your host, jess Heiss, dropping episodes every Friday, as we help you make the most of your Sturdy Girl summer. That is, reclaiming body confidence, wearing the swimsuit and doing the kinds of activities you want without letting your body or appearance hold you back. Hello, friends, and welcome to episode 35 of Sturdy Girl. It's another solo episode with me, jess. Hopefully these are fun, beneficial. Maybe it's like having your bestie in your back pocket and in your ear holes chatting about fun things, giving some little bits of life advice and life chats.

  Speaker 1: 1:05

  But hello, I want to talk about comparison today and, I guess, just a little preface to this. I've had a lot of things going on in life lately, a lot of changes, a lot of personal things that I won't bore you with and I'm not trying to withhold, but really it would take an entire hour podcast episode for me to catch you up, for any of it to make sense. So suffice it to say right, when you're going through things and we all are to some degree or not the universe just decided to say hold my beer and give me all the things, which is fine. We're resilient humans. But one thing that I noticed with having things going on in my life that were outside of my control, one of the coping mechanisms, if you will, that I had was I'd find myself grabbing my phone and scrolling social media, and sometimes I wouldn't even realize I was doing it until I was 20 plus minutes deep. Dog videos, book videos, runners, lifters right, it didn't matter. But it was the self-talk that was happening while I was watching those videos and noticing that I was comparing myself or hearing myself think oh, I wish I had that mile time, oh, I want that van life, and then being like, do I really? And it's just really interesting, I've actually I've wanted to do an episode on comparison since we started the Sturdy Girl podcast Gosh almost a year ago. You guys, september will be a year.

  Speaker 1: 2:24

  I just really felt like I couldn't do it justice, because the understanding of comparison is that it's not a good thing to do, and I hope that in the time it takes to listen to this episode that I can convince you otherwise. Because, yes, comparison can be an absolute bitch, but it's a bitch that's never going away. It is a natural thing we do and sometimes we don't even realize we do it. In this episode, our goal isn't to stop comparing ourselves to others. That's not what I'm going to help you do here. I'm going to help you get out of the comparison trap where it's a negative thing.

  Speaker 1: 2:56

  But we as humans, naturally will compare ourselves to our former selves and to others, forever and always. It's something that I don't think a lot of people understand. The root of comparison lies in our innate need for connection, for belonging, for validation. We're wired to seek acceptance and approval from our peers, from others. It's natural for us to assess our worth based on achievements, success, possessions, appearances, because this comparison can also be a way for us to figure out who we are, what we're good at, and even figure out where we want to go or do or achieve. So sit with that for a sec while we talk about a couple of different types of comparison, and I'll elaborate a little bit more about the okayness of comparison as soon as we get through a little bit of the info. Part of this Okaypes of comparison.

  Speaker 1: 3:44

  There's upward and downward comparison, and both can be good and bad. It makes me think of coaching, when I'm working with clients and they'll ask questions and I would venture to say 80 to 90% of the time, maybe more my answer is it depends. That's something with these types of comparison they can be both good or bad. It's like a tool it depends on how you use it. So upward comparison is a way of using other people's accomplishments to determine what our own goals should be. It kills contentment and self-acceptance. There's always someone doing better than we are in one way or another, and if we constantly seek out people to unfavorably compare ourselves to, we'll never feel like we are enough. Truly, there's always more to get out there.

  Speaker 1: 4:24

  In nearly every study on the damaging effects of social media use, upward social comparison is a key variable Siena was talking about like I want that person's mile time, I want their van life, I want their whatever. When we look to someone who seems more accomplished or high status than us and use their perfection as a stick to beat ourselves up with, we're engaging in that upward social comparison. If you find yourself feeling threatened or judging every time you view a particular influencer or a celebrity or whatever it is, odds are you are comparing. Alternatively, we can use this upward comparison to see our similarities with that person, rather than the differences. We can use their example as inspiration.

  Speaker 1: 5:05

  When we can see someone like us in some kind of way, who is I'm going to use air quotes here above us, it can give us hope, it can give us motivation, it can help us see that something is possible. It reminds me a friend of mine recently was talking about the concept of manifestation, which I'm not super woo-woo I feel like I'm leaning into the woo the older I get. But within manifestation, there are people in the world called expanders and essentially they help to broaden and expand your worldview of what's possible. And so you can compare upward in a way that helps you to see what's possible. It can provide insight into how a person achieved the goal that you're striving towards and remind you that it is possible. It can give you more perspective. So that is upward comparison. You can use it for good, you can use it for evil.

  Speaker 1: 5:57

  Downward comparison is the opposite. So you're comparing yourselves to someone who's worse off. In whatever context. And whatever you're comparing to, you know if you are looking at deadlift strength or their mile time or their social status or what kind of car they drive or house they have or whatever it is. It can make you feel better in the moment. I found this really interesting in reading the research. It can improve your well-being, it can make you feel better in that moment, but then most of the time it actually increases the negative feels frustration, isolation, low self-esteem, etc. So I don't know, I am not a psychologist, but it would seem to me that more often than not, downward comparison would maybe give you a false sense of status and not be long lasting. So another reason I created this podcast episode.

  Speaker 1: 6:44

  But one other thing that I wanted to mention before I get into what we can do to improve the way we compare is talking about some of the ill effects of comparison. So one they take up too much time. It is so easy to get into this spiral of comparison, but if you remember back to chatting with Jess Cahill, we have 4,000 weeks. We have an average of 75 summers in our entire lives. Do you really want to waste any of that time thinking about other people and comparing yourself to them or comparing yourself to your former glory days of that smaller body, faster runtimes, whatever the heck it was, do you?

  Speaker 1: 7:22

  Secondly, comparisons are inherently unfair. You see that post, that reel, that whatever video. What do you really know about the person you're comparing yourself to? What do you really know, besides what they're showing you? And what assumptions are you making? Third, they generally require metrics, measuring sticks of some kind, right? How much money, how many followers, what brand of clothing, what size body, how much weight? How fast are you running? Do we really want to fall down that rabbit hole? Fourth, they put the focus on the wrong person. You're spending the time comparing yourselves to other people instead of spending time thinking about how you can improve you or what you actually want. And fifth, they can result in resentment. This is self-explanatory, right. If we fall down that comparison trap, we can increase the negative feels we have about ourselves, about our accomplishments, about our bodies, whatever we happen to be comparing about. We can make it a heck of a lot worse if we're ruminating. And then what? All of the ill effects to say, all right, what can we do about comparison? We've learned that it's normal and part of being human to compare. Hopefully, mold that over enough to be like okay, jess, comparison is normal, I don't have to get rid of it, it's never going to go away. So how do we use it effectively? So there's helpful ways and there's not so helpful ways.

  Speaker 1: 8:37

  The first thing that I want to mention is developing awareness. Now, if you listen to any other Sturdy Girl episodes, you know that the first step of working on body image, of working on self-confidence, working on so many skills that first step is awareness. Of working on self-confidence, working on so many skills that first step is awareness. But with this comparison, is that tuning into your thoughts or your actions? Oh, can you catch yourself comparing? Is it on social media? Is it when you get around groups or people you haven't seen in a while, or family you haven't seen in a while? Can you stop yourself and you're like, oh hey, I noticed this. Who am I comparing myself to? Does this help me? Are my comparisons biased, right? What do I know about this person? So it's developing the awareness and then it's checking it. How am I assessing this person? What do I know? What am I failing to take into consideration? Again, if we decide, is this a positive or negative comparison, right? Does it spark anxiety or feelings of shame. Does it cause me to engage in more like continue that self-comparison spiral, if you will?

  Speaker 1: 9:34

  So mindfulness around when you're doing it, what situations, what circumstances, thought patterns, like what kind of things are triggers for us to notice that we start to compare? I can speak to sponsoring a powerlifting meet last weekend, which was amazing and had so many great conversations about what it means to be a sturdy girl and live a sturdy life. But, man, I have not been in a focus powerlifting season for months, and so seeing all these strong humans and I noticed that comparison come up and I realized so two things. One, I was so incredibly stoked for all these humans coming and talking to me about their wins of the day platform PRs, winning their weight class, whatever it might be, or just going out and giving it their all, and so that comparison was like oh man, I miss competing. There wasn't any negative comparison. It was that aspiration, if you will, of maybe I want to get back on the platform.

  Speaker 1: 10:28

  What would that look like? But it's awareness and mindfulness of other situations. Are there people that you're around or that you see on social media? Are there environments that trigger that comparing? And if social media seems to be a trigger. How can we look at setting better boundaries for how we spend our time online? Is it moving the app off of our home screen so you have to dig deeper to get to it? Is it deleting it on certain days or times or giving yourself parameters on amount of time a day? Is it just that awareness to go?

  Speaker 1: 11:01

  Oh, I'm falling into the comparison trap again. This is catching it. It's a form of self-reflection and it's noticing. Ok, if we are aware suddenly that these certain situations are bringing it up. What kind of comparison Is that? Upward or downward? What kind of feelings does it bring up when we're comparing? Why did it crop up? One thing I want to point out too. We're midway through summer, and that is especially social media and maybe in person too, depending on your activities. You're seeing more bodies and more skin with summer clothes, swimsuits, and that can be a trigger for that comparison piece. For a lot of people, it can add to the appearance pressure we may feel to look a certain way. So again, first step developing awareness.

  Speaker 1: 11:44

  So the next thing here is accepting the experience and the emotions. So if you catch yourself in this let's say upward comparison, and it's going in a negative direction. You've got yourself in somewhat of a spiral and you're going to notice oh, in this comparison game again, god, I'm beating myself up. Right now. You're accepting the experience, you're accepting those thoughts that have come up, but you're not. You don't have to identify with them, you don't have to accept them as truth, right? Just acknowledge that they've come up, validate what you're experiencing instead of dismissing it or being upset at yourself. That it happened and I think that's really key here is okay. We're saying notice, but a lot of people will notice. They'll continue beating themselves up and push it aside. And so accepting, acknowledging, noticing, because then from there we can choose to reframe this.

  Speaker 1: 12:31

  What can this comparison teach me? Think of it like research in a way, because you can learn about yourself in these instances. What emotion did this person yourself comparing right, the more you can start deciding what you do and don't want in life. You can use this comparison as simply information. It's your research. You're learning more about yourself. Like I said earlier, when I was like, oh my God, I want their van life, I like stopped myself and I'm like do you want their van life? Is that something you actually want for yourself? Actually, not really. I don't really see myself living out of a van. It looks really cool. Everyone makes it look really cool. I don't know that that's necessarily for me. Okay, let's move on. It's information.

  Speaker 1: 13:25

  I think, too, in the context of positive upward comparison, there is a human on social media who does not know I exist and she is an amazing CrossFitter. I'm not a CrossFitter. I have tried it for like six months at a time three different times in the past. But this particular human is a similar stature to I am, but incredibly muscular, and I just think it's so rad when humans focus on getting stronger and yes, for health and for all these things. But this person it's Kelsey Keel on Instagram, or I think it's Kelsey Keel is her Instagram page. But this is who I'm talking about Just incredibly fit, human and so kind and just this great person. And so when I initially started following her, I had to question myself like OK, dude, are you jealous and you want to look like her? Or is this like, oh my gosh, this person had how many years of hard work and dedication, worked their ass off to get to where the level they are today? That's absolutely possible for whoever wants to put in the time and energy and dedication, like, oh yeah, actually that's what. That is Right, so it can be positive, even if you question yourself at first. Okay, derailed myself a little bit because I adore Kels Kiel and like maybe I'll tag her in this to be like hi, friend, you're a sturdy girl like us, okay.

  Speaker 1: 14:43

  But next point, tuning into yourself. So often comparison whether it ends up being upward, downward, positive, negative turns our attention, our focus, our energy onto another person, onto their appearance, their life, their privileges, their possessions, whatever it might be, their skills. And we've shifted the focus away from ourselves. Remind yourself what you are capable of. Your looks, your appearance do not define your worth. If we take the time tuning into ourselves, set our own personal goals that can take the energy away from the comparison. Refocus on what you really want out of life, what you care about, what you value, and maybe the person, the situation, the whatever you're seeing and comparing to can give you information into what you value, into what you want out of life and what you care about. There's that piece, and then it's also turning the focus inward what do you have, what are you proud of, what do you value? We talk a lot about core values on this podcast, because those are like our compass to guide us in the direction we want to go.

  Speaker 1: 15:48

  And then two other tips I have as far as using comparison, and I'm sorry that none of these are just like snap your fingers, easy to apply. But this point is a little more involved with self-exploration and that's self-mastery. Nothing kills confidence faster than comparison. You can't compete with other people when your confidence is built on self-mastery. So can you get excited about this level of self-discovery, of figuring out the things that make you happy, indulging in levels of self-expression? Compare yourself with yourself If you need to redirect, and the comparison to other people is just not positive, for whatever reason. Can you strive to be the best version of you, strive to take the best care of you? And this, the comparison game, can call into question feelings of whether you're doing enough. Have enough, say enough. When we work on this self-mastery piece, we can instead return our focus and energy onto the good in our world here Because, friend, you have a lot more than you think. So I guess self-mastery really ties into that piece of tuning into yourself as well. So maybe that's like a sub point.

  Speaker 1: 17:00

  But the last tip I have is to cultivate your community, paying attention to how you feel around different people surrounding yourself, with the people who are striving for similar goals, who value similar things, who are taking part in the activities that you're trying to get into or find yourself drawn towards. I feel like ever since the pandemic, community and social interaction, in-person interaction, has been more important than ever. I just recently went on a girls retreat in Lake Tahoe and that in-person connection is so amazing. Yes, there are online communities and those connections can be great, but I think we as humans learned a lot from the isolation of the pandemic to know that human interaction is so, so necessary for our health. So turn towards people who can provide solidarity, advice, professional help. That can also be an insight that you find yourself. If this comparison is just affecting your mental health, there are absolutely people who can work with you on that. So those are my recommendations.

  Speaker 1: 17:54

  I also okay, I'm going to put this out there and, if it is a double thumbs up, yes, I want you to shoot me a message on the link in the show notes that says send me a message to tell me you're interested. But I would love to start a sturdy girl community where sturdy, rad humans can show off the fun things that they're doing, big and small. The ways that they are romanticizing their lives, like our episode from last week. The ways that they are using comparison in a positive way. Connecting yes, I said online's not as great as in person, but it's a place to start. If this is something where you're like heck yes, jess, let's have more conversations online in our own community thumbs up in a message link is in the show notes, or if you have questions or suggestions or anything. We love getting these messages. We had about a dozen come through last weekend and they are so fun to read, maybe I'll start sharing them on social media too, if anyone sends fun messages.

  Speaker 1: 18:45

  Okay, those are your five ways to work on making comparison work. For you. Getting out of that comparison trap is, remember, we will never stop comparing ourselves to others. We are human. It is human nature. In some circumstances that comparison can be useful. So the five tips, just as a recap develop awareness, accept the experience, reframe self-mastery and cultivating community Friends I'm not going to compare, you're going to compare. And cultivating community Friends I'm gonna compare, you're gonna compare, it's gonna be okay. I feel like I know I wrote the entire outline for this episode. I know that I was the one that did the research, but even just talking through this and talking to you right now, it has sparked so many ideas in my brain for ways to utilize comparison in a healthier way, so I hope that it's helped you too. It's been great chatting friends. Thanks for another great episode Again. Always love to hear your thoughts. Always love seeing Apple podcast reviews come through. I will talk to you next Friday. Have a good one, friends.

34. How To Feel Better In Your Body

Ready to transform your relationship with your body? Join Jess, on this solo episode of Sturdy Girl as I uncover the secrets to feeling good in our bodies, especially during those summer months. Fresh from a rejuvenating girls' retreat in Lake Tahoe and inspired by a client's marathon in Colorado, I dive deep into the importance of internal work for achieving true body confidence. We’ll explore the concept of body image flexibility, a powerful tool that helps us maintain a positive view of our bodies, regardless of external influences. This approach empowers us to experience joy, feel alive, and live the big, rad life we all deserve.

But that's not all—we'll also discuss a holistic approach to health and wellness, emphasizing the importance of hydration, exercise, nutrition, sleep, and mindfulness. Learn how societal influences shape our body image and discover actionable steps to improve self-care. Imagine caring for your body like a resilient house, one that stands strong against the pressures of the world. Tune in to get inspired by our Sturdy Girl challenge and start reclaiming your body confidence today.

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  Speaker Names

  JessHost

  00:09

  Hello, friend, and welcome to Sturdy Girl, a podcast focused on strength, not size, where you will hear conversations around flexible body image, cultivating confidence and being a resilient human in both body and mind. Sturdy Girl is the podcast where we shift the focus away from your appearance and on to living the big, rad life you deserve. I'm your host, Jess Heiss, dropping episodes every Friday with my co-host, Megan, as we help you make the most of your Sturdy Girl summer. That is, reclaiming body confidence, wearing the swimsuit and doing the kinds of activities you want without letting your body or appearance hold you back.

  JessHost

  00:47

  Hello, my sturdy friends, and welcome back to episode 34 of Sturdy Girl. This is another solo episode with me, jess, because I am the ultimate procrastinator. It is the day before this episode drops and we are finally recording. My ass got knocked out with COVID and we're finally on the up and up. You can hear it in my voice a little bit, but this message was too important for me to try to put off for a week and also lessons learned. Right, I shouldn't be such a procrastinator. But here we are. I want to talk about how to feel better in your body and this, especially in the summertime, feels so freaking timely. I just got back from a girls retreat in Lake Tahoe and then a week before that, I was in Colorado for a client's first freaking marathon and I just the opportunity for talking about feeling good in your body and noticing how others behave in their bodies showed me just how important this message is. So here we are Again, solo. I will do my best not to ramble too much. I don't have Megan here to keep me in check. I do have Finn hanging out with me in the corner, but he just thinks it's great when I'm talking to him.

  01:56

  Okay, how hard is it to feel good in our bodies? How hard is it to feel like we are doing the things to take care of our bodies that we need to do to feel good in our skin? Does it feel like work to keep ourselves from spiraling downwards? Because we all want to feel good and feel better in our bodies, I feel like sometimes it's a bait and switch when we have these episodes of how to feel better in your body and feeling better in our bodies. It comes from internal work first. Sure, we can wear the clothes that fit well and feel good. We can find our style and learn to just have fun wearing whatever we want, accessorizing in a way that feels fun, or just learn to feel totally free and comfortable to do all or none of that. What we're focusing on today is the internal work to help us feel better in our bodies so that we have the skills necessary to be a sturdy human. From putting on that bikini to climbing that mountain, to mustering the confidence to ask for a promotion that you've worked your ass off for, all of that matters, and all of that comes from learning to feel good and feel better inside our bodies. You'll notice in this upcoming discussion that none of this is about our actual appearance. The goal here isn't to learn to love your appearance, though that could be a good bonus, right, we're not against that. The goal also isn't to feel good in your body all of the time. We are human. We know that there are good days and bad.

  03:22

  Feeling better in your body is to experience joy. It is to feel fully alive, to live the big life that you want. That is what feeling better in our body is. I like to think of it this way your body is your home. You buy a house and you make it a home. Your body is your vessel, your meat sack, to experience this world. How do you make it feel like home? How do you make it so you feel safe, feel comfortable in that home? That is what this episode is about, because you deserve to live the life you want to live. Do the things you want to do without letting your meat sack hold you back.

  03:58

  Okay, first thing that we're going to talk about in feeling better in our bodies, it involves two things, and that's what you're going to see in this discussion and this list of things, if you will. It involves taking care of our brains and taking care of our bodies. Now, I know it's not that simple, but that is where the overarching theme of this comes down to. So let's talk about taking care of our brains first. The big main thing here and it is such a core part of Sturdy Girl and living a Sturdy Girl life and that is practicing body image flexibility. We've talked about negative body image. We talked about neutral body image and positive body image, body image flexibility. Think of like those I don't even know what they're called like those little blow up stick figure dudes that are at car lots, that get blown up and then they blow around in the wind and they're all bendy. Okay, flexibility makes me think of that.

  04:48

  Body image flexibility is like being able to bend and change depending on the situation that you're in. It means that at the core of it, you've worked on that relationship with yourself and you feel pretty good in your body most of the time, but that we still know that there are triggers and there are times when we just reach for body image neutrality or maybe it is positivity in certain circumstances. That body image flexibility it gives you the ability to prioritize your own first-person perspective on your amazing body, regardless of how you look or how you or others feel about your looks. That difference is crucial. Body image literally does not give a shit what your body actually looks like Size 8 or 18, it doesn't matter. The work is in your brain. The struggle is in your brain cells, not the number of fat cells. If you want a bigger, deep dive on body image flexibility, you can go all the way back to episode one, which is titled what is body image. You can also go back to episode 16. It's titled how I stopped hating my body and what I leaned into instead, and that gives a great overview as well of body image flexibility and how to actually apply it.

  05:59

  Okay, and then next part of this taking care of our brains. One huge part of feeling better in our body is getting to know ourselves. I know we talk about this a lot on the podcast and I could probably get some eye rolls here, but when we talk about this in the sense of mindfulness, the simple act of tuning into our thoughts, noticing them without attaching ourselves to them. We've discussed this in a number of episodes of the acceptance and commitment therapy principles, especially in season one. But if we are able to tune into our needs, our desires, learn to listen to our body and simply be present. We can get to know ourselves and feel more comfortable when different thoughts arise, or not necessarily identifying when those thoughts do arise. This way of being present in our body it can look like taking a walk, simply sitting and focusing on your breathing and seeing what thoughts come up. It can be journaling a voice note to yourself. This deep contentment and joy that we talk about and what I want for everyone listening comes from actually knowing ourselves.

  07:00

  Actually, this is a side note and not in this outline at all, but I am currently reading the book the Comfort Crisis and it talks about exactly this. It talks about the benefits of getting outside. It leads you to being more creative and connecting better with yourself. So it does apply absolutely. And this getting out for a walk, getting out in nature it's something as simple as what did they say? 20 minutes a day, five times times a week. That 20 minutes was like the magical number and it didn't have to be all right you need to go out in the wilderness. It was like if you live in the city, is there a park? Is there at least a street with trees lining it? The mental benefits of being around plant life were huge, and I just found that really interesting. It goes into much, much greater detail, but I think that really applies here of getting to know ourselves and being able to turn down the chatter in our brains sometimes, and sometimes all it takes is stepping outside.

  07:54

  One piece I do want to recognize, though, with getting to know ourselves and how vague and huge that sounds it's really uncomfortable to just sit with it, to sit down with our thoughts, to slow down enough to be alone in our brain and our bodies. But that discomfort going back to that comfort crisis book, sitting with the discomfort is actually the key here. Our lives are so busy that, one slowing down to tune in to signals our brain and our body are giving us and noticing the thoughts that come up is really difficult. Our lives are busy, our brains are noisy, there's a lot going on, and two, we tend to avoid it. We notice thoughts come up when we realize how tired we actually are or how soft with ourselves we've actually been, or something along those lines. Right, and then we try to brush it aside and keep going, and the point of this is actually tuning in and figuring out how to listen. This also, as you can imagine, involves paying attention to our self-talk. Right, we're noticing thoughts coming up, hearing what we're saying about ourselves in different situations.

  08:51

  If we go back, episode 13 is all about self-talk and tips and tricks, tools how to learn to pay attention to that. So how to actually learn to listen to ourselves and recognize when the thoughts are coming up. Are they actually things that we resonate with or are they just weird things that pop up sometimes that we get to learn to not attach to and let go? That is that piece. So talking about taking care of our brains, getting to know ourselves, learning how to listen to our thoughts, practicing body image flexibility. I have to apologize in this giving you so many reference points for things we've talked about quite a bit on the podcast, but those episodes I reference are worth listening to and if you have any questions about any of this ever, please feel free to reach out.

  09:34

  The next piece of this is taking care of our bodies. I suppose preface with this. It feels like low-hanging fruit to talk to you about respecting your body and practicing self-care, but it really sets the entire foundation of that house you're making a home If we spend the time to learn how to take care of our bodies, to stay hydrated and eat the nourishing foods. Adequate sleep and recovery, taking care of that mental, emotional health. That's how we feel better in our bodies. Like it makes sense, right, I know it's low-hanging fruit, but I wouldn't be talking about it if everyone was doing it.

  10:10

  If we take the time to learn the foods that make your body feel good and fuel well for all of your adventures, to learn how much sleep you need to function well. They say the minimum is seven hours a night. Some of us do great on that seven hours. Some of us actually need closer to nine or more. And it's learning. Where do I function? Well? There are so many opportunities here to get to know ourselves, like, for instance.

  10:30

  This seems really silly, but I remember in the early-ish days of Instagram and all of the big influencers I totally subscribed to the drink a gallon of water a day and the earn your shower and all of those things. I remember trying to drink a gallon of water a day and the earn your shower and all of those things. I remember trying to drink a gallon of water every day. I had like one of those big half gallon jugs and I was like, heck, yeah, just two of these a day and I had to pee 27 times every single day and it never got any less for me and I never actually felt like hydrated and got all the benefits that people said. I found that I do well with more of a hundred or so ounces on average, and so this is something that if you take the time to take care of your bodies and practice that self-care, you can get to know how do I function when I eat this kind of food, drink this much water, when I go to bed at this time and wake up at this time and practice really good sleep hygiene practices. You have so much that you can learn about yourself to take care of yourself.

  11:24

  And I guess one other side note almost 10 years ago or so, I used to do this check-in with myself every day and the acronym is HENS Hydration, exercise, nutrition, sleep, self-care. I would look back at how much water did I drink, how did I move my body today, what was my nutrition like? You know if I'm tracking macros or I'm tracking portion sizes or just to check in how many servings of plants did I eat today? And then look at sleep how many hours of sleep did I get the night before? Do I feel rested on that? Did I have good sleep hygiene practices? I went to bed within a half hour and got up within a half hour of what I normally do.

  11:57

  And then self-care. What is something I did today to take care of me? What did I do to tune into my mind and my body, to make sure that I am hearing things that I'm saying? If my body is screaming at me that I've been pushing myself way too hard, that I've been trying to fit too much on my plate, have I taken the time to tune into that? Have I asked how I'm doing or how I'm feeling? So that is not a science-backed thing. That is not necessarily something that I'm like hey, give this a try. But I will tell you it was a really great check-in for a really long time to make sure that I was doing those things that are low-hanging fruit. That became more of a habit Drinking enough water, moving my body every day, eating the foods that I knew took care of my body, doing those things. So, hens, hydration, exercise, nutrition, sleep, self-care. If you try it out, I would love to hear about it. But in that, hens the exercise piece, this is the other piece of taking care of your body, and that's move your body.

  12:51

  This is something that I keep coming back to and we include it in this episode, not to say you know, get off your ass, you lazy bitch Like. That's never what we're implying. It's to highlight the importance of regular exercise when it comes to short-term and long-term health. Not just physical health here, it's mental, emotional health as well. The link to regular exercise and improved mental health is legitimate. When we tell you to move your body, you're not going to be able to move your body. You're not going to be able to move your. Do it in ways that you enjoy, also remembering the importance of cardio and strength training, right. So if your preferred form of cardio isn't running, I might be a runner, but I'm never going to be the person that says this is what you have to do. If swimming is your jam, if bike riding is your jam, if rowing is your jam, do those things. If we want to get specific here, the ACSM guidelines, the American Academy of Sports Medicine guidelines for physical activity for ages I think it's 18 to 65, is 150 minutes a week of moderate intensity aerobic activity or 60 minutes a week of vigorous intensity cardio and then, two times a week, activities that maintain or increase muscular strength or endurance. So don't take it from me, take it from the source. Here are guidelines on the amount of time spent to maintain our health.

  14:02

  Okay, I feel like this episode is totally me getting on my soapbox. In some ways, I'm talking about things that I really am passionate about. I'm just taking care of yourself to feel better in your body, and so I want to turn this into a little piece of homework, if you will, and I'm titling this what Would Happen. So let's imagine for a second you listen to this episode and you're like man, I really want to start taking care of my body. What can I do? What if you chose 30 days, 60 days, 90 days, let's say, three months? It is hard to learn such a big thing in only 30 days. So let's say you're committing to 90 days, to three months, and what we're going to do in that three months is no fad diets.

  14:41

  Learn the basics of nutrition, of macronutrients and how they affect the body. Learn how to nourish your body. What foods feel good, fit well into your lifestyle, how does it work to eat more plants and eat adequate protein? And then, when it comes to exercise, stop program hopping, stop changing things up every week. Can you lean into learning the basics of lifting, of learning to lift heavy, and then start incorporating your preferred form of cardio in there to try and meet those ACSM guidelines? No more burning the candle at both ends. So we've talked nutrition. We talked exercise.

  15:13

  So when we talk self-care, can you learn the importance of that rest, sleep, recovery piece, aiming for at least seven hours a night, and then have some level of mindfulness, self-check-in, self-reflection piece to take care of that mental, emotional health, instead of this constant trying to get smaller as the only focus and the only metric? What would happen if you focused on fully taking care of your health comprehensively mental, emotional, physical for the next three months? In a perfect world, you get in those three months and you're like, oh my gosh, this is what it takes to take care of myself. And you realize it's not the fad diet, it's not cutting out food groups, it's not needing to exercise six days a week at vigorous intensities where you're wearing yourself out. It's none of that. That's what I'd love to see here. That is your homework, even if it is just committing to a week of figuring it out being curious of how your body and brain would feel if you would start to feel better in your body by learning to take care of it inside and out.

  16:11

  Okay, wrapping up here, one thing we didn't mention here is the influence of society and media and the world at large and how that can affect how we feel in our bodies and about our bodies. It can be such a trigger. We also didn't talk about the underlying shame that we can have about our bodies as well these two big topics that affect it. Please don't think we're diminishing them. We just simply wanted to pick the strongest, most actionable things that you can do to improve how you're feeling in your body right now. I think that when we talk about the influence of, I'm going to say, the world at large social media, media, other people, our families how those impact the way we feel in our bodies and about our bodies deserves an episode all on its own. It is one huge piece that we need to deconstruct, if you will, if we want to understand how we feel in our bodies fully. So maybe that's a future episode, but again, I did not want to dismiss the importance of those.

  17:03

  But feeling better in our bodies means taking care of our brains by spending time getting to know ourselves and really practicing the skills of body image flexibility. Feeling better in our bodies means taking care of our bodies Full stop. A neglected house is not a resilient house. So, friends, please consider taking part in this homework. Maybe we make it more of an official Sturdy Girl challenge, if you will, but I'd love to hear from you. We have in every one of our show notes. There is a link to send us a message. If you're interested in taking part in this, if you take part in this, if you took anything away from this episode, we would love to hear. We love to hear from our fans, from our guests, from everyone. All right, friends, we'll talk to you next Friday

33. How To Romanticize Your Life and Find Joy in Everyday Moments

In this enriching episode of the Sturdy Girl Podcast, our special guest Lexi dives deep into the concept of romanticizing your life and finding joy in everyday moments. The episode opens with a heartfelt discussion on appreciating the small, often overlooked aspects of daily life that add a touch of magic and meaning to our routines. Lexi and the hosts explore how practices such as savoring the aroma of fresh coffee or taking a tranquil sunrise walk can cultivate presence and gratitude, ultimately leading to a more fulfilling existence.

The first chapter of the episode, titled "Romanticizing Your Life," introduces listeners to the idea of finding beauty and magic in the mundane. Lexi shares her perspective on romanticizing life as appreciating the small moments rather than relying on grand gestures or material rewards. This practice encourages listeners to be present and grateful, enriching their daily routines and goals. By focusing on simple pleasures, such as the smell of fresh coffee, listeners can learn to find joy in their everyday experiences.

Moving into the second chapter, "Embracing Daily Rituals and Appreciation," the discussion shifts to the importance of daily rituals and varied experiences. Lexi emphasizes how incorporating variety into morning coffee rituals, like using different coffee preparations, can enhance the experience. The benefits of taking activities outside, such as enjoying coffee during a sunrise walk with your dog, are highlighted, along with the positive impact on mental health. The chapter also delves into finding enjoyable movement, whether it's running, dancing, or simple stretches, to appreciate what the body can do. Adding color to surroundings is another tip for bringing joy and novelty to daily life.

In the final chapter, "Rediscovering Life's Small Joys," the focus is on recognizing and curbing the habit of comparing oneself to others, especially on social media. Lexi and the hosts discuss the value of slowing down, being present in one's own life, and reflecting on personal achievements rather than constantly seeking the next big thing. They share strategies such as making social media accounts private to use them as a personal time capsule. The grounding effect of spending time with pets is also explored, highlighting how their presence can help us appreciate small, meaningful moments and stay present.

One of the key takeaways from this episode is the importance of daily rituals. Lexi explains that transforming routine tasks into meaningful rituals can significantly enhance one's quality of life. For instance, turning the simple act of making coffee into a mindful ritual can help start the day on a positive note. By engaging all the senses and fully experiencing the moment, one can find joy and contentment in these small daily activities.

Another important aspect discussed is the benefit of taking activities outside. Lexi emphasizes the mental health benefits of being in nature and how simple acts like drinking coffee during a sunrise walk can have a profound impact on well-being. The discussion encourages listeners to explore their surroundings, take different routes, and incorporate outdoor activities into their daily routines.

The episode also addresses the comparison trap, a common issue exacerbated by social media. Lexi and the hosts offer practical strategies to avoid comparing oneself to others and instead focus on personal achievements and unique experiences. By celebrating one's own journey and accomplishments, listeners can foster a more mindful and fulfilling way of living.

Spending time with pets is another delightful topic covered in this episode. Lexi shares how her dog, Hank, helps her stay present and appreciate the small joys in life. Whether it's the joy of a morning walk or the comfort of cuddling with a pet, these moments can significantly enhance one's sense of well-being and happiness.

In summary, this episode of the Sturdy Girl Podcast offers a wealth of practical tips and heartfelt stories that inspire listeners to romanticize their lives and find beauty in the everyday. From daily rituals and outdoor activities to avoiding the comparison trap and spending time with pets, Lexi and the hosts provide valuable insights on how to cultivate presence and gratitude. By focusing on small, meaningful moments, listeners can transform their routines and lead more engaging, fulfilling lives.

The Sturdy Girl Podcast continues to be a source of inspiration for those looking to live a more mindful and joyful life. With episodes like this, listeners are equipped with the tools and insights needed to make the most of their daily experiences and embrace the magic of the present moment. Whether it's through savoring a cup of coffee, taking a walk with a pet, or celebrating personal achievements, this episode encourages everyone to find joy in the little things and romanticize their lives.

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• Full Transcript

  Jess: 0:09

  Hello, friend, and welcome to Sturdy Girl, a podcast focused on strength, not size, where you will hear conversations around flexible body image, cultivating confidence and being a resilient human in both body and mind. Sturdy Girl is the podcast where we shift the focus away from your appearance and on to living the big, rad life you deserve. I'm your host, jess Heiss, dropping episodes every Friday with my co-host, megan, as we help you make the most of your Sturdy Girl summer. That is, reclaiming body confidence, wearing the swimsuit and doing the kinds of activities you want without letting your body or appearance hold you back. We are on episode 33. We are almost halfway through season three, already into mid-July.

  Jess: 0:53

  Like I don't know where time has gone, but I have a very special guest host with me today, lexi, who is both a well, let's see, started started out as a client, is now a client and a very good friend, and is a resident expert on our topic today, which is romanticizing your life. So hello, lexi, thank you for joining us. Hello, happy to be here. This is this is fun and way different. We have different microphones this time around. Blake decided that these were easily portable. They're DJI Mic 2. And we have little clip-ons. It's like so different from our little studio setup right now. So I feel a little silly because I don't have a microphone to lean into.

  Lexi: 1:40

  I love it. I love being in my kitchen and getting to talk to you about romanticizing your life.

  Jess: 1:46

  It feels, I don't know like. It feels way more casual actually. I like this, but no, okay, romanticizing your life. I've been wanting to make this episode for a while now. I feel like romanticizing our lives goes along with like hot girl walks and like mental health walks and just this proponent of like making your life meaningful, and I'm here for it. I really, really like this. So I think that, too, when we were figuring out, spending time together like this is something that you have done for quite some time, we've had a lot of conversations about romanticizing and what that actually means. How would you define romanticizing your life? What does that mean for you? I think.

  Lexi: 2:33

  to me it's the small glimmers of really I don't ask you to define it as rude.

  Jess: 2:39

  I'm sorry. No, you're fine.

  Lexi: 2:40

  I think romanticizing my life means to me is like finding the small moments of beauty of reaching my goals or working towards my goals. Maybe finding those small moments in the everyday life that are what make my life magical, instead of just like the big trips or summiting the mountains. It's the little things in the everyday that make this life magical. Mountains, it's the little things in the everyday that make this life magical.

  Jess: 3:06

  I like that, yeah, when we can make magic out of the mundane. It's kind of how I think about that. Right, it teaches us really how to be present. It teaches us how to lean into like a gratitude practice, which there's such a sometimes, I feel, some type of way when people are like just practice gratitude and it's super dismissive. But this is almost an active way and engaging way, versus just like write down three things you're grateful for at the end of every day.

  Lexi: 3:33

  It's like I in action and practicing this and enjoying the good in our world, the small moments like that's, yeah, it teaches us to get out of just going through the motions and gratitude, like throughout the day, and not just at the end of the day or what you can remember oh, the smell of like the new coffee I got that smells like toasted pine nuts, or just a small moment of gratitude throughout the day, instead of just like trying to make a list and it's always the same every day. Right, I'm grateful for my dog, I'm grateful for my house and that's it like. You gotta like focus on those small moments.

  Jess: 4:09

  It's actually in in the action taking. Yes, I think one thing to mention here too. You know we're talking about small moments, um, but if you look up, like, if you just google, like how to romanticize your life, so many of the articles that come up are, like subscribe to this 27 step skincare routine because you're taking care of your skin and your body, buy this supplement, do these crazy activities, because that's going to be romanticizing your life and making these big moments. That's not the point. Not the point. It's also like you see, oh my gosh, you also see people that treat themselves when they, every time they run an errand, right, it's like, oh my gosh, I went to Target and like went grocery shopping, I deserve a little treat and I love those, but like romanticizing your life isn't treating yourself every time you accomplish something. Like those are fun when they're treats, but like that's not. That's not our point here. Okay, so Lexi explained her definition of romanticizing her life and we already kind of alluded to that. Right, it's being present to fully enjoy small moments with all of your senses, taking in the experience. It's not anything that's big or dramatic necessarily. This is really just how many senses can I experience this thing? Like you said, you're making your morning coffee and you get these new beans right and you're like, oh my God, these smell so good. And then, as they're roasting, or you're like, sorry, as you're grinding them, how much better does your coffee taste when you've, like, enjoyed that process? It's just, it's so good.

  Jess: 5:49

  Um, and another thing, too, that you alluded to was like, as you're chasing goals, as you're working towards something you have when you have a I'm trying to think of how to say this you have when you have a. I'm trying to think of how to say this when you live, when you, when you have a well-lived life, when you chase big goals, when you have success, for whatever that means to you, they're made up of a lot of small moments, and I don't remember where I heard this initially, but you spend 99.9% of your time pursuing goals and less than 1% achieving them. So if we aren't making the most of those small moments, of all of the steps that it takes to get to the top of the mountain, what's the point? You're going to be miserable and not to say you're going to enjoy every bit of the climb, right, but if you're stopping to take pictures along the route and you're seeing little critters and flowers and the views and those things.

  Lexi: 7:03

  That's what this is and the views and those things like that. That's what this is. Learning to be a journey person instead of a destination person has been the epitome of romanticizing my life. Not just trying to get to the top but stopping and taking pictures. And yeah, maybe I need to hustle to the top, but stopping and taking a few pictures or just taking in the flowers around me is that 99%, absolutely.

  Jess: 7:28

  And I think, too, it's talking about journey versus destination. Is this ties really well into happiness? Because romanticizing your life is like finding those small moments of happiness. You know we talk about glimmers, right, I've heard a number of people mention glimmers and I again don't remember where I heard glimmers for the first time. But it's like finding those small moments in the mundane. And or it's like if you're having a crappy day and there happens to be like a flower that you see on your walk or getting to like, these glimmer moments of like oh, my friend reached out to me, or whatever.

  Lexi: 8:09

  It is these small glimmers because that's my glimmer right there, the funny little noises that Hank makes while I'm, while I'm working.

  Jess: 8:21

  Oh, my gosh. But it's just. Happiness isn't a destination. I guess that's my point right. So often people think like I'll be happy when, I'll be happy when. And romanticizing your life is understanding that the happy moments are the small ones. Happiness isn't a constant state, it's small moments or small periods of time, and so when we can enjoy things more, how much better is it?

  Jess: 8:55

  I think, two other things to mention before we get down into some of our favorite ways to romanticize our lives. And that's one thing too. There are certain routines that we have every day and I wanted to talk about, like, the difference between ritual and routine. So a routine is like I take the trash out every Tuesday night, I brush my teeth before I go to bed. A ritual is taking that routine and making it mean something. Essentially, it is taking and making it have some kind of emotional, psychological or spiritual purpose. But you're never going to make a ritual out of, like brushing your teeth, taking the garbage out, those things.

  Jess: 9:46

  But it's talking about, like we mentioned, making the coffee in the morning, when you take your dog for their first walk of the day, when you do certain things. How can you ritualize it to make it a meaningful time that you're reconnecting to yourself, and that's kind of romanticizing. Is that ritualizing, that ritualizing? And then the other piece of this too and this is the easiest fallback of how am I romanticizing my life is when you can recognize what your core values are. And if you don't know what those are episode I believe it's nine is all about how to find your core values. Go back and listen to that, but that can really help you lean into like well, what kind of activities would be helpful to romanticize.

  Jess: 10:31

  Okay, so I think we set this up well enough to talk about some of our favorites. I guess you and I both already mentioned our morning beverage and romanticizing the heck out of that. We are obviously morning coffee drinkers. If you're a morning tea drinker, I think Jess Cahill, who was on a couple of weeks ago, talked about her morning dandy blend instead of coffee. But enjoying the smell and the taste and the sounds Maybe you're up before the rest of the house and the taste and the sounds. Maybe you're up before the rest of the house and get to enjoy it. No-transcript ritual.

  Lexi: 11:17

  We're going to talk about this later too, but, uh, I like taking my morning beverage out um on a walk with my dog. I really get to enjoy it and slow down, and um, then we're both happier to be outside for longer. So it's just like a nice ritual that's become, um, like getting up and getting outside.

  Jess: 11:39

  Yeah, and not just the begrudging. This is the start to my day. Okay, let's go, I've got to make my coffee before so I can be like awake enough to take on the day. Right, I just, we recently got a nice espresso machine and it's been fun to make different types of coffee. We had an AeroPress for a long time and I loved that. You know, we've done the Keurig thing, we've done that. So right now it's like the fun espressos and then making cold foam or making a nice latte with a ton of foam on top, different flavors or creamers, and I'm usually just a like black coffee person with a little bit of milk, but I've gotten more creative and had more fun with it.

  Lexi: 12:22

  Um, yeah, I don't know if you can put this at the end, but it's always nice, like. What I found is like all these tips you can actually like stack right, like I make my coffee, I bring it outside and just like right now with um, what time I get up and what time the sun rises? It's usually sunrise, and so I have all the different colors and so I slow down, I take the dog, I have the slowness of that, I have the colors. It's like all the things that we can add together.

  Jess: 12:53

  That's right into our next point, which is take it outside. It's summertime, it's summertime, the weather's nicer. I mean it gets crazy hot depending on where you're living. But can you take work meetings outside? Can you listen to a podcast? Can you do the hot girl walks, right? Is it as simple as when you take your dog out in the morning, drink your coffee outside to be able to watch the sunrise. Take your dog out in the morning, drink your coffee outside to be able to watch the sunrise.

  Jess: 13:28

  Like staying to take it outside is not like saying take it, take it outside. There's also mental health benefits to that being outside in nature, being able to take a walk, even that, through your neighborhood. Like we can get big and say, go for a hike or explore your city or do those things, and there's great benefit to that. I mean. I think about our travels a couple of months ago. I mean we were exploring awesome cities, but on a very small level, which is what we're talking about the small moments of romanticizing them, the mental health benefits, the physical health benefits. And then remembering too, I think about this with like you, lexi, you work from home. Megan, our normal co-host, also works from home and it's so hard to recognize like, oh my God, I've been inside for how many hours today. Maybe I just need to get my butt outside. And how nice that is. It's not going to be a problem solver, but when we can romanticize those little moments of just being able to take something outside, an activity, or just even go for that walk.

  Lexi: 14:32

  I think it creates novelty too. So instead of everything being the same all the time, romanticizing can just be like anything new taking a different route, like the novelty of getting outside or taking a different route is really magical.

  Jess: 14:48

  Agreed, and I mean that, as we're talking about walking, I think another piece of romanticizing is finding movement you enjoy, and I mean we both love to run, we love to lift. Those are great modalities. There's a lot of research on how important those are for your health span. But not trying to be a movement snob here. Right, it's finding types of movement that you enjoy as a way to be present, as a way to as a sturdy girl, as a way to not focus on your appearance or your body. You're experiencing what's around you, if that's dancing in your living room to going swimming, to going rock climbing, or if it is as simple as like I got out on a trail run this morning and it was such a great way to be present and challenge myself and it was awesome.

  Jess: 15:44

  When you find movement, I don't even know what that means. What did I say? I said find movement that fosters appreciation for what it can do, your body can do. I'm assuming. When you can find movement that you enjoy, it also makes you appreciate your body as the meat sack that allows you to do the things. To find enjoyment, to romanticize, to be present.

  Lexi: 16:10

  Anything to add to that. It can be as little as getting up from your desk and stretching out a little bit, finding a little bit of movement, finding out a little bit of space in your day.

  Jess: 16:26

  Absolutely yeah, or like again, as simple as walking the dog. I love this whole episode because we're talking so much about pets and Hank's hanging out in the room with us, and when I'm at home, finn normally hangs out with me when I record.

  Lexi: 16:36

  We always have to have an Aussie in the room.

  Jess: 16:38

  That's the sturdyurdy Girl rule. Okay, so next thing for romanticizing your life is adding color to your world, and I think, especially in summertime and early fall, I think for this point in particular, I was thinking mostly in the realm of food, but this could also apply to like the clothes you wear, the way you decorate, whatever, but in the summer there's so many delicious fruits and veggies that are in season and so adding more color to your diet. So, again, not talking about like here's the diet you should follow, but just in general, it's fun to experiment with new fruits and veggies. But just in general, it's fun to experiment with new fruits and veggies.

  Jess: 17:20

  When we were traveling with my grandparents in May, we were on a Greek island and we'd go to the store and go to different fruit and like we'd go to different produce stands and I mean I was eating like papaya and dragon fruit and like Corfu is known for kumquats you're supposed to eat with like the skin on, think like of a, think like a mini mandarin orange or like cutie, but smaller kind of oblong. Yeah, you're supposed to eat it and that skin is just as bitter as you'd think and I was like not really a fan, um, yeah. So just thinking about, are there fruits and veggies? You could try different ways to prepare them. Is it salads in the summer? Is it can? Can you grill them? Can you season them different ways? But there's a lot. I mean, if you have a farmer's market, checking that out, we have one literally at the bottom of our hill that we go to and get a lot of our produce just to yeah, mix it up.

  Lexi: 18:26

  I think like that's peak. Uh, summer is going to farmer's market and trying different fruits and veggies and maybe cooking it in a different way than your parents used to, or just trying new things. But I think that, like adding color to your world, can mean a million things. With the wildflower season upon us and sunrises and sunsets, like adding color to your world in as many capacities as you can. Go to the deserts, go to the mountain. There's so many diversity of color that can remind you how amazing this life is. In just like a few few, square feet.

  Jess: 19:03

  Yeah, you absolutely sum that up so well. That's, yeah, not just color in food, but color in life, and even the simple act of mixing it up in any bigger small way can add more color and add more life, where you're like, oh, I've shifted myself out of this routine that I have somehow gotten stuck in many times over. Yeah, I like that a lot. And I think, going into our next point and, I guess, preface to this, I know we've talked about social media a lot, but we are thinking this in context of being present and that is slowing your scroll. But we are thinking this in context of being present and that is slowing your scroll.

  Jess: 19:41

  We so often pull out of romanticizing our life because we compare to what we see on social media. That is a normal thing. We actually have an episode coming up all about comparison and spoiler alert, spoiler alert. You will never stop comparing. It is such a human thing and it's not necessarily a bad thing.

  Jess: 20:04

  But if we can start recognizing when we're comparing and maybe that does mean slowing down our scroll, because we find ourselves comparing people to people on social media, because, especially summertime, like we've been talking about hiking, we've been talking about all these adventures.

  Jess: 20:21

  You know, you see people on big trips, doing trail runs, doing epic adventures, backpacking, doing all these big things, and maybe you've gone and done a big thing or a medium thing, or however you want to define it, and you're back home and then you're scrolling and seeing these people and you're like what, my life, this is a lot okay. And you start comparing yourself to what they're doing. So this is, uh, more that building awareness so that you can be present in your own life, making your own choices and you get to decide what you actually want or like reflect I think I was just thinking like reflecting on what you've already done, cause I don't know about you, like, see, but I'm totally that person that, as soon as something is done, well, actually I do know you're this type of person because we've had these conversations Um, something's done.

  Jess: 21:18

  And then you're like, okay, what's next? And then it's having to be intentional, of reflecting on, like you just ran your first marathon and literally 48 hours later we're sitting down and talking about what your next goals are. But you're also taking the time to reflect on okay, I just did this really big, cool, hard thing and what did I learn? Just did this really big, cool, hard thing and what did I learn? What did it mean? How hard did I work to get there? And, like, reflecting on that, to recognize I did this big thing. And then you can safely like be on social media as as if, like, you've already reflected and understood the meaning that that has for you. Does that make sense? Am I rambling? I think it makes sense.

  Lexi: 22:03

  Okay, One of the tips and this may be helpful, it may not be is that, like I made my account private and then I started posting more. I post all my adventures on my Instagram and I kind of use it as my time capsule and when I do get in a little bit of a like, oh wow, I'm like not going on as cool of hikes and I haven't done much or whatever, I scroll through my timeline and it like helps me re-romanticize everything I've got to see and do and even the small moments, the putting together the puzzle or hanging out with friends like that is meaningful to me in a way that hiking Kilimanjaro with a random person wouldn't necessarily be like finding that value and bringing it back to myself and how I want to romanticize like my own life, versus comparing other people doing what they want to do.

  Jess: 22:54

  Yeah, I think that's fantastic, because if you're able to reconnect with what you actually want out of your life, out of your summer, what are the things that are meaningful? It is those small moments of oh my gosh, we just spent the last five hours talking and now we're putting together a puzzle and you have this serious time of connection and friendship that's equally as valuable as the person who's climbing that mountain, for you, for the experience, for the fulfillment and for the romanticizing. So I think that that's yeah, that's fantastic. Okay, our next point is leaning into spending time with your pets, and we've been talking about Hank and Finn so much on this episode already. But, lexi, you can speak more to this, cause this was something that you brought up when you were going over.

  Lexi: 23:49

  It's just such the little things with your pet. Uh, I work from home and it's so fun to like look over and he's like dreaming and it makes me so much more present of like what this life is and getting outside and like slowing down because I want to let Hank sniff, I don't want to be in a hurry and just have to get through this walk with him. I want to slow down and romanticize the little things and like the joy he finds in swimming or being outside is like it just boosts like the romantic.

  Jess: 24:23

  Romanticism.

  Lexi: 24:25

  It boosts the romanticism of the moment so much, getting out there and slowing down and watching the just pure joy of kids or pets in a way that I feel like we lose sometimes as adults.

  Jess: 24:39

  I like that a lot. Yeah, I just think about dogs only ever live in the present, much like little kids only ever live in the present. They force you to be more present and, yeah, when you're like, okay, the dogs force me to get outside every day. And how do you make the most of that? And it's often for, like Blake and I, it's usually a morning walk and an evening walk and then maybe a couple in between, depends on the day and it depends on how hot it is. Um, but they're they're a nice reset, or it's a nice time for Blake and I to check in with each other or just hit that reset button of like I'm outside, I'm present, these dogs are happy.

  Jess: 25:20

  Um, but I think, to the other side of this with, uh, the dogs in particular, is when I climb in bed at night and I'm trying to wind down and like turn off my brain, finn always comes up to cuddle. I wish Hank cuddled. I'm sorry, but he'll tuck his little nose in my armpit and I'll pet his head. And his head is like velvet. It is so soft, little velvet ears, little velvet top of his head. It is so soft, little velvet ears, little velvet top of his head and it forces me back into the present of like. How soft are his ears, how sweet is this little boy. And he always looks at me we call them love eyes like when he's tired and he's just looking at you like I love you, mom, and it does.

  Jess: 25:58

  You're present and I like romanticize the heck out of like my wind down time in the evenings. I feel like we already so. The next point is taking advantage of what's around you, and I feel like this is something we've also kind of talked about of just like getting up out of your chair if you work from home, or even if you work in an office, and like taking advantage of the pool in your apartment complex, the coffee shop down the street, the park that's within walking distance, or if you're in a place like Portland has so many city parks, why don't you start making a list and checking those off, checking them out, but not being afraid to explore in your own city?

  Lexi: 26:40

  Take a new route home. Not everything has to be like a crazy adventure. A new route home. Not everything has to be like a crazy adventure.

  Jess: 26:48

  Check out a new museum, the novelty will do, you wonders. You said take a new route home, and my brain, like literally, was like, oh no, that like gives me anxiety because I get I'm not saying autopilot, but you're like I know that this route takes me 13 minutes to get home and that other route takes me 35 minutes to get home. So like, okay, maybe I'll embrace it, I don't know. And then, lastly, having a check in, check out routine.

  Jess: 27:15

  And this sounds kind of formal for when we're talking about, like, being present and romanticizing your life, but where we're talking about glimmers and small moments, being intentional about finding those because they're there.

  Jess: 27:32

  So I think for a while, lexi, you were making it a point to write down or post what a glimmer of your day was or something that you romanticized out of your day, and I think that there is power in doing that, versus, like the end of your day and you have your gratitude list, you're like I'm thankful for my dog, I'm thankful for my health, I'm thankful for delicious coffee the end and you're writing that when you're actually experiencing it.

  Jess: 27:58

  So you're documenting it, photo, video, whatever it is or just in that moment where you're like, oh, my God, I romanticized the heck out of that phone call with grandma today because I'm so happy that she's still around and I talk to her all the time Like that important. So maybe this is the homework piece of this episode of how do you romanticize your summer. How do you make the most of being present, of those small moments of yes, if you have big adventures, amazing. But being present of those small moments of yes, if you have big adventures, amazing. But how do you make the most of your world, of the people around you, the animals around you, the places around you, knowing that those small moments are what add up to be the big moment?

  Lexi: 28:39

  Finding those glimmers. Yeah, Find those moments, post them because we want to see them.

  Jess: 28:47

  Tag Sturdy Girl. Oh my God, girl, we want to see all of them. We would love to see how you romanticize your life, because it doesn't have to be. I mean, obviously, like Lexi and I, megan as well we love being outside. We know that not everyone loves being on trails or mountain biking, or trail running or hiking or whatever it is. So what, what are you romanticizing? All the little small things, even if that includes, like, pet pictures, like we want to see those. Yes, tag us at sturdygirl underscore on Instagram. We also, at the end of July, we'll be doing a little giveaway of our Sturdy Girl Summer shirts for someone who tags us. So get on that tagging and, yeah, friends, make a ritual out of something. Make it meaningful. Let this be a callback to the kind of person that you want to be and start acting accordingly. Did you have anything else?

  Lexi: 29:46

  to add Thanks, friend, this is so fun.

  Jess: 29:48

  This is awesome. Thank you for being so willing to learn these new mics with me and get on Sturdy Girl. We do have an official Lexi interview coming up soon, because she ran her first marathon, and not just any marathon. It had what? 4,500 feet of vert and it was at 9,300 feet. Start Just insane. And what? Seven months ago you ran your or ran well seven months ago. You did your first powerlifting meet. Eight months ago Whatever the heck Insane. And yeah, I can't wait to to interview. It's gonna be fun me too. All right, friends, thanks so much for listening to another episode of sturdy girl. We so love all of the feedback. It's been awesome to see people as you've been reviewing. Keep doing so, and we will talk to you next Friday.

32. What Travel Taught Me About Body Image

Traveling has always been more than just a way to see new places; it's a transformative experience that can shift our perspectives on many aspects of life, including body image and confidence. In this solo episode of the Sturdy Girl podcast, Jess takes us through her enlightening three-week journey across France, Greece, and London with her grandparents. Through her stories, we uncover profound insights into body confidence and the liberating power of fashion and self-expression.

One of the most eye-opening aspects of Jess’s trip was observing her grandmother’s reactions to the diverse styles and body types they encountered. Coming from a small town with limited exposure to global fashion, her grandmother's perspective was initially narrow. However, as they navigated the bustling streets of Paris, the serene landscapes of Greece, and the historic sites of London, it became clear how subjective fashion and confidence truly are. Each place they visited had its unique way of expressing style, which served as a reminder that there is no one-size-fits-all when it comes to beauty.

Jess emphasizes the importance of wearing what you love, regardless of societal expectations. This realization hit home as she watched older European women carry themselves with unapologetic confidence, dressed in styles that suited their personalities rather than conforming to trends. It’s a powerful lesson in self-love and authenticity, reminding us that true confidence comes from within.

Body image ideals are another critical topic Jess tackles in this episode. She points out that these ideals are entirely fabricated, often dictated by media and cultural trends. Historical shifts in what is considered the "ideal" body type further highlight this point. For instance, during the Renaissance, curvier bodies were celebrated, whereas the 90s popularized the "heroin chic" look, favoring thinner frames. These constantly changing ideals prove that there is no single standard of beauty.

Jess uses the metaphor of "poodle science" to illustrate how unrealistic and harmful these ideals can be. In a world where poodles dictate how every dog should look and act, the absurdity becomes evident. Just as a Mastiff will never be a poodle, humans should not be expected to conform to a single body type. Health and beauty are diverse, and it’s crucial to embrace our unique shapes and sizes.

Another significant takeaway from Jess’s travels is the reminder that life is too short to be spent worrying about appearance. Watching her 75-year-old grandmother navigate the challenges of limited mobility while still fully immersing herself in the experience was a poignant moment. Her determination to climb to the top of the Acropolis, despite the physical strain, serves as a metaphor for living life to the fullest. It's a call to action to wear the tank top, eat the croissant, and seize every moment without letting insecurities hold us back.

Jess also touches on the importance of enjoying the culinary delights of the places we visit. Dieting or restricting oneself while traveling can detract from the full experience. Instead, savoring the local cuisine, whether it’s a buttery croissant in Paris or a fresh seafood dish in Greece, adds richness to the journey. Food is an integral part of culture, and experiencing it without guilt enhances our connection to the places we visit.

The overarching message of this episode is to shift the focus away from appearance and towards living a vibrant, fulfilling life. This aligns with the mission of Sturdy Girl: to cultivate flexible body image and confidence, empowering listeners to live boldly and authentically. By sharing her travel experiences and the lessons learned, Jess encourages us to redefine beauty on our terms and to appreciate the bodies that carry us through life’s adventures.

In conclusion, this episode of Sturdy Girl is a heartfelt exploration of how travel can reshape our views on body confidence and self-expression. Jess’s journey with her grandparents serves as a powerful reminder that beauty is subjective, body image ideals are fabricated, and life is too short to be spent worrying about appearance. By embracing our unique selves and living boldly, we can redefine beauty and body confidence, one travel story at a time.

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• Full Transcript

  Jess: 0:09

  Hello, friend, and welcome to Sturdy Girl, a podcast focused on strength, not size, where you will hear conversations around flexible body image, cultivating confidence and being a resilient human in both body and mind. Sturdy Girl is the podcast where we shift the focus away from your appearance and on to living the big, rad life you deserve. I'm your host, jess Heiss, dropping episodes every Friday with my co-host, megan, as we help you make the most of your Sturdy Girl summer. That is, reclaiming body confidence, wearing the swimsuit and doing the kinds of activities you want without letting your body or appearance hold you back. Welcome back to a solo episode of Sturdy Girl. It's me, jess. Hi, friends, it feels very weird to be recording solo after having Megan sitting next to me, being the person that I get to look at and talk to this whole time. So, hi, I will see how well I do through this. I guess Finn, my Aussie, is hanging out in here with me. I can talk to him. I don't know how effective that will be, but let's chat. I want to talk about travel, and in talking about traveling there's a lot of lessons learned, and I don't say any of this to be trite. I recognize how freaking privileged I am to be able to travel every year like I do. I enjoy it so much for so many reasons, but one of the things I kept coming back to, especially our travel this year, was on body image and some of the lessons that traveling has taught me about body image, about self-confidence, about how we treat our bodies and ourselves.

  Jess: 1:45

  Earlier this year, so May, blake and I took my grandparents to France and Greece for three weeks, with a long stopover in London. My grandparents are from a town of maybe a thousand people, I would say their worldview is vastly different from my own, and I noticed my grandma on this trip paying a lot of attention to the way people dressed, to different body sizes, to the way people carried themselves, to the foods they chose in restaurants, right, and it was just really interesting where they haven't traveled a whole lot in their lives, and Blake and I have traveled to more than a couple dozen countries at this point I have lost count and so to see the world through their eyes and my grandma is one of those people like I'm just totally going to talk her up on this episode she and I lived across the street from each other until I was almost through elementary school We've always had such a great close relationship. But even then, seeing the difference in worldviews for myself and the traveling that I have done versus someone who lives in a small town and their world is very small on the day to day, and so paying attention to those things and listening to her comments that she made about what she's noticing on this trip, it made me start thinking about body image, because, honestly, sturdy Girl lives rent free in my mind. With body image in mind, let's talk about my favorite takeaways. I can make a whole list of random things here about what I've learned traveling about bodies and body image.

  Jess: 3:14

  Wear what you want, because style and fashion are absolutely subjective. I think that's one really big one here. That sure it's not one of my big main points, but one of the little ones is really truly, every place you go, the is so much different what people wear, and especially when you're in cities, like we were in paris, and there are so many tourists, which is great, but it also goes to show you all these people from all over the world wearing different clothes, wearing different styles, and it's truly like wear what you want, wear what you like, express yourself through your clothes Like. It's so subjective. And another thing people watching is one of my favorite pastimes when traveling, but it can be really insightful when you pay attention to how people carry themselves. I noticed too, how much older women in Europe tend to give less fucks. They really just carry themselves differently. I don't know how to explain and there's no like scientific backing on this entire episode. This is literally just an observation, but I mean I think about too, not on this trip, but in previous trips. Right, there are a number of nude beaches in Europe when I've been in Spain, when I've been in France, and you see all shapes and sizes present, and it really challenges our narrow view of the societal norm of what a body quote unquote should look like, right? So those are all little things, my two main takeaways of what travel has taught me about body image.

  Jess: 4:38

  Number one body image ideals are made up Full stop, 100%. The idea that there is one single body type that is ideal comes from the media, comes from this fabricated idea that smaller is supposedly better. And you know, depending on the period of time that we look at, those ideals change. If we lived during the Renaissance, curvy was better. The more curves you had, the more voluptuous you were, the more celebrated you were. Look at the art from that period of time that was in. And then you fast forward and I just I'm trying to think off the top of my head because the first thing I think of is just growing up as a 90s kid, the heroin chic, thinner, tinier. The thinner you are, the less body fat you have, the better. And then seeing that shift away into big butts and tiny waist, seeing that shift into seeing defined muscle and seeing all those shifts. It is so interesting to me how much that societal, healthy body or norm or what we're striving for, changes and yet we are just taught to follow. That it makes me think of.

  Jess: 5:40

  There is a video if you look up poodle science on YouTube. The Association for Science, diversity and Health put out this video. I don't know how long ago, but it's stuck with me when you talk about body ideals. It's a video about a world made up of dogs and the poodles are the ones barking the loudest about how everyone needs to look and act like a poodle when their world is full of all sorts of breeds of dogs with different lifespans and health risks. You look at like a poodle versus a chihuahua, versus a Rottweiler versus a Mastiff? Right, a Mastiff is never going to be a poodle and realistically, we would never expect them to be, so why do we do this to ourselves? Why do we do this when we compare ourselves? You want to look like them, have a body shape or size like them. Why do we assume that we all should be the same shape and size, when it's no different than this ridiculously adorable video about poodles trying to take over the world and make everyone look like poodles, when we recognize that not every dog is ever going to look like a poodle and we don't expect that? Smaller is not better, thin is not the ideal, and health is going to look different on every single person, and it's so interesting.

  Jess: 6:54

  This is such a side tangent, and then I'll go on to my second point about what I've learned while traveling, and that's just the fact that there is there's a better term for it than skinny fat, and I'm blanking on how they explain it, but those that are thin have less body fat percentage, aren't necessarily more healthy than someone who has a higher body fat percentage, and so when we look at measures of health like this could be an episode all on its own when we talk about metrics of health, and I've really been nerding out on this recently. I think just about every episode I've recorded this season of Sturdy Girl has been a mention of the book Outlive. If you have not put it on your to be read list, I would add it. The front half of the book is incredibly research heavy, but the back half of the book is really it's the art and science of longevity and it talks about markers for health and we get so wrapped up. There's so much buzzwordiness around health and wellness and what that looks like and feels like, and it just I shouldn't even go off on this right now. Just suffice it to say right Body image ideals are made up, we are made to be all different shapes and sizes, and if you and I eat the same things and move the same way, our bodies are still going to look entirely different.

  Jess: 8:06

  And that's my point with this is, just when you travel and when you see other cultures, that becomes even more apparent to you, and so I want to do it and share that with you. So that's point number one. Point number two life is too goddamn short. That's the point. It's too short to be wasting our energy on whether our arms are somehow defined enough to wear the tank top, or how many rolls we have when we sit down while we're wearing the bikini at the beach, or how much our thighs are going to rub in shorts and whether we should actually put them on, which honestly like if there's too much thigh rub, we figure out the right shorts. I'm not saying let your thighs catch on fire from chafage, but my point being my grandma is 75. Her mobility is starting to decline.

  Jess: 8:47

  We really planned this trip this year so that they were both healthy enough to go. So we planned the trip around some of her limited mobility as far as Ubers instead of walking too far, limited stairs, making sure the Airbnbs were elevator accessible if they weren't on the first floor, those things. And so this idea of turning that focus of energy away from our bodies was just seeing my grandmother be so in the moment and recognizing life being short to waste our energy on the little things Wear the tank top, wear the shorts, wear the whatever you want to, with mind to that health piece right, seeing my grandma at 75, experience Paris, experience the Eiffel Tower, experience Montmartre, experience Athens and walk her way to the top of the Acropolis. That was such a standout moment for me, when, at the Acropolis, there's actually an elevator that can take you up to the Acropolis because it's on top of a hill. Elevator of the day we went happened to be broken and the lady said well, you can wait until this afternoon, it might be done, or just take it slow and go to the top. My grandma said huh, I need a minute. We sat down for a few and she said I'm never going to be here again, I want to make this work, let's go. And so my husband and I each took one of her arms and walked with her up to the top and it was slow and it was steady. And we got to the top and she sat down on a rock and she cried because she could not believe that she put that effort in to get to the top of the Acropolis. I cried too, to be honest and to recognize that.

  Jess: 10:13

  What do they say? We have 4,000 weeks. We have 75-ish summers, like the age of 75. Isn't that the average lifespan? How many summers do you want to spend worried about how something might appear, when you could just wear the thing, do the thing and enjoy it?

  Jess: 10:30

  Life is too short as well to not try the fun foods of the places that you're in, to be continually on a diet or restricting Eat what you want on these trips? Do you want to and I think about this a lot lately do you want to be 95 sitting on your front porch in your rocker talking to your great granddaughter and tell her about the amazing trip you had in Paris, but that you couldn't try the macarons or the croissants or the crepes or the world-famous caramels because you were on a diet or because you were worried about the carb intake? No, you want to tell about the full experience, about wandering the city while holding this crepe and getting butter and sugar running down your arm because you were enjoying it so much, not worrying about the few extra calories. On the vacation, wearing the dress that you questioned you really liked it but weren't sure if you should wear it and you put it on and you're like this is so fun and this is so outside my comfort zone, but we're rocking it Right. That's it, friends.

  Jess: 11:28

  There's my rambling episode on travel. Life is too short to waste your energy on obsessing about your appearance, and that's the whole mission of Sturdy Girl. To be honest, it's shifting the focus away from your appearance and on to living the big, rad, beautiful, rich life that you want to live. And then, secondly, body image. Ideals are made up. Work on your definition of health. Don't try to be a poodle when the world is full of every kind of animal. When you are traveling this summer, this fall, whenever, whether it's local or international, right across the board, remember this. How great is it to have this body that allows you to experience new places, people, food, body ideals are fake and this life is too short to not eat the croissant, wear the clothes you want and walk with just a little swagger for the simple joy of being present in a new place. Okay, friends, that's enough of my rambling. Hopefully those points hit home in some little kind of ways.

  Jess: 12:26

  We are now into July, we're into summer, and I want to hear from you. If you have previously purchased Sturdy Girl apparel, I would love for you to tag us on Instagram in that apparel. If you have previously purchased Sturdy Girl apparel, I would love for you to tag us on Instagram in that apparel. If you are not, but you are living a Sturdy Girl summer, tag us on Instagram. I had originally asked for the hashtag Sturdy Girl summer and I don't know if I just aged out of figuring out how to follow hashtags in a way that sees everyone's. I failed on that. So tag us on Instagram at Sturdy Girl underscore, and at the end of July and the end of August we are giving away Sturdy Girl merch to someone who has tagged us. So that's it, friends. Happy Sturdy Girl summer. I will talk to you next Friday.