51. Exploring Embodiment: It Goes Beyond Just Body Image with Hannah Silva-Breen
In this episode of Sturdy Girl, Jess sits down with Hannah Silva Breen, an expert in all things mental performance and sports psychology. They talk about how crucial it is to develop the mental side of athletic performance, comparing it to having a coach for your brain. Hannah shares her own story, from basketball dreams and setbacks to becoming a champion for better body image and mental health awareness.
But it’s not just about sports! Hannah introduces us to the concept of embodiment, which shifts the focus from what we see to how we feel inside. It's about being present in our bodies and using that awareness to empower ourselves. Together, they explore why self-compassion is key, especially on those tough body image days.
Throughout their chat, Jess and Hannah remind us that it's okay to have ups and downs. By embracing the impermanent nature of emotions and practicing self-compassion, we can all nurture a healthier relationship with our bodies and minds. Whether you're an athlete or just trying to feel a bit more at home in your own skin, this episode is packed with relatable insights.
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Jess: Hello friends and welcome to another interview episode of sturdy girl. I have Hannah on today and I want to give you a little bit of info about her before we get started. She's a current graduate student working towards her PhD in sports exercise and performance psychology and a master's in clinical mental health counseling.
She holds a master's in kinesiology. with an emphasis in sports psychology and is working towards her certification in mental performance consulting. Ooh, I want to know what that means. In a minute. Her [00:00:30] research areas include body image, disordered eating, weight bias, and gender equity in sport. She has practical experience working in a residential eating disorder treatment facility, and that's where the work there that really lit her fire in this area and inspired her to continue researching topics in grad school.
After grad school, she hopes to continue conducting research and speaking on body image and weight stigma in sport and counseling athletes and coaches in all areas of life. Hannah, welcome to Sturdy Girl. All [00:01:00] of these things are right up our alley. Thanks for joining us.
Hannah: Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be here.
Jess: I feel like I just learned so much about you reading your bio.
Hannah: Well, that is, the goal, right?
Jess: Yeah, a a little bit of tidbit. Okay. First of all talk to me about like mental performance consulting. Like what does that mean? What does that look like?
Hannah: it's basically the role that I'm in working with teams and individual athletes on the mental side of their game. So that can look like [00:01:30] focus, confidence goal setting, team dynamics. Relationships with coaches and even things like mental rehearsal through imagery and things like that.
it's really supporting the mental side, whereas athletes get a lot of support on the physical side. we kind of describe it as we can either be your strength and conditioning coach or your physical therapist. Right. So like something's wrong and we can help you figure it out and quote unquote, fix it in that [00:02:00] sense, or maybe things are going really well, but you want to strengthen different areas.
And then we can help you build on that side. So it can look different for each athlete, each team, but in general, just strengthening or. Bringing back to baseline the mental side of sport.
Jess: That's really awesome. Just thinking about how you're bringing to the forefront the importance of the mental side of things, because my own perception, I have no basis in this, but I feel like it's a fairly [00:02:30] new focus to really lean into how much the mental game has to do with how we physically perform,
Hannah: Yes.
Jess: seeing that come forward a lot more.
Hannah: Yeah. sports psychology as a field has only been around since officially the 1970s if I remember my history correctly. So it's really new compared to like the general psych field or sport in and. You know, there's still stigma [00:03:00] around it. There's a lot of people fighting against that stigma and there's still athletes.
out in the world who disagree with a lot of the work that we have of kind of like, well, you should just be able to turn it all off and perform or anything like that. And luckily we are seeing shift towards, the mental side is important. not only important, but necessary to support. So that's really encouraging to see both at, from the professional level, college level, and even down to the [00:03:30] high school and youth level now.
It's really cool. Yeah.
Jess: about how you got down this path. I'm just curious like for our listeners just to hear about how the heck this, this ended up being your, path and how much you have managed to combine interests into something so awesome.
Hannah: Well, it hasn't been a straight path, a very clear path. That's for sure. and I think, you know, for anyone listening that would be, Kind of the biggest thing [00:04:00] of it's okay. If you don't know what you want to do right away, or if barriers get in your way to kind of keep finding that path and coming back to it.
so I, I played sports as a kid and I focused on basketball in my high school career. And I was average, I would say. I was hoping to become better and get better, but um, an injury prevented that from happening at a really poor time. And that's when I really struggled [00:04:30] with my mental health and just the mental side of like resilience, confidence in general, and returning to sport.
Cause I did eventually return. I was lucky enough to have a family that supported me and I got into therapy and got mental health support. However, that sport specific kind of context was not addressed as well as I would like to hope. and so that really piqued my interest and got me looking into this idea of sports [00:05:00] psychology.
To see if it was a thing and it was a thing, but back when I was in high school, like nobody had that as a major and I was about to go to college. So I went to college and kind of lost my path a little bit because everyone was talking about. Money and success and what's going to get you the best paying job.
So I actually fully switched gears and started as a math major. I don't really know why I was convinced math was going to be my ticket to a [00:05:30] well paying job. hated it and then decided to come back to this idea of what sparked my interest in the first place, which was sports psychology and. My school didn't have it.
So I did psych and exercise physiology and that I was able to kind of blend the two fairly well. But then I had a lot of really cool Experiences and research and in school and all of a sudden my mind, because I was 20 years old, not really knowing what I was [00:06:00] doing. I got super interested in abnormal psychology and I convinced myself that I should be a psychologist and apply to clinical PhD programs. Got rejected from all of them which forced me to take a couple of years off and find a job, which is when I found the Emily program, the eating disorder treatment facility, literally Googling bachelor's degree psychology jobs near me. Cause there's not much out there with [00:06:30] that degree. was still interested in eating disorders in college.
I did a research project on it, but I didn't think it would be so prominent in my life and working there with my coworkers and the clients, both kids and adults, I really started to take a hard look at myself before I started to kind of look at society and outwards and started to challenge. My own relationship with my body, societal standards, [00:07:00] and internalized fat phobia that I had learned from society and our culture.
And through that self reflection, I got angry. I got so angry. and knew that I wanted to do something about it. And my relationship with my body has is and will always be there and it ebbs and flows and it's not something I can ignore. So I really, really wanted to do something with that.
And a lot of clients that came through the Emily program were either current or former athletes. [00:07:30] And I started to see patterns within sport that I kind of knew were there, but didn't see it as consistently as I did talking with these with these clients. And that's when I Kind of realized, okay, I think this was a sign.
I kind of believe everything happens for a reason. And, you know, I took some detours in order to land me here at the Emily program, get this incredible experience, learn to fully know that this was my passion and what I [00:08:00] wanted to do, and then I was able to go back to school from there and get my master's realize I wanted to do more on the mental health side and not just research.
And that's when I. landed here at West Virginia University to hopefully get my license in clinical mental health counseling and that certification in mental performance consulting to bridge that gap.
Jess: That's awesome. What a cool journey. And I love just the reassurance when people like, you went into and you're like, oh, math major because I want to be successful. You know, we [00:08:30] all have those, things that we might, I don't know, I think about it as like, I've been saying this so much today, like the F around and find out.
When we're growing up, we don't really, that wasn't really reinforced to us. Like, you don't have to know exactly what you want to do when you finish high school, and your interests are going to change. And seeing that be more of the case of, like, giving permission to explore different options because you wouldn't have ended up where you are now, and pursuing things that you're actually passionate about, that you care about, and like, changes that you want to [00:09:00] bring into the world, like, you wouldn't have gotten there.
And so I think that's really cool.
Hannah: Right. And I also, there was a point in time where I was like, a little bitter at some of my mentors who I would say, quote unquote, let me apply for these PhD programs while an undergrad with very little experience at that point. but I've now come to realize, they were letting me apply. exactly like you said, find it out myself. and I'm really grateful that they did and it landed me where I am today. And I'm really [00:09:30] happy that I went back to grad school a little older too. So I really recommend after college taking a year, taking a couple of years to get that practical experience before jumping back in to education.
Jess: Makes a, big difference on the other side. my dad would love this because he didn't go back to school until his 40s. and he finished his master's and he started teaching and he's a few years into his, teaching and he's like, I want my PhD. So he's now Dr. Dad.
Hannah: incredible.
Jess: and [00:10:00] because he's teaching, like, at a university, he's an eternal student, like, he still takes classes.
that's who he is now, but it's hilarious, because he gives me a hard time. I have my bachelor's, and my day job, I'm a dental hygienist. And so, there's really no tangible benefit to going back to school for a master's but every time I talk to my dad, he's like, when are you going to get your master's? When are you going back to school? When are you going back to school? he's like, eventually I'm going to wear you down.
You're going to go back.
Hannah: And maybe it'll be, I mean, maybe that'll happen. Maybe it'll be in something that you would have never [00:10:30] expected right now.
Jess: Honestly, okay, I will say this, and this interview is not about me, but talking about going back to school, I do love school, I do love learning, and with the growth of this podcast, and with the coaching that I do, with like, running and lifting,
Hannah: Yes.
Jess: want to go back to school for psych and I want to focus on like the behavior change piece of things because confronts me daily and then like if we tie it back into being in dentistry.
When we're talking to patients about brushing and flossing [00:11:00] habits, like, that is behavior change. when I talk to clients about, running their first marathon, that is behavior change. When I talk to them about performance nutrition and changing different food choices, Behavior change, like there are so many things where I'm like, I love, I want to do this and I talked to my husband and he's like, do you need to go back to school?
What is that going to change? I was like, I want to learn more. I want
Hannah: I mean,
Jess: just for me.
Hannah: yes, and that's, I think that's the perfect [00:11:30] sign that you should, that you're fired up about it, you see it relevant in so many different areas of your life, and honestly, you sound like a perfect candidate for mental performance consulting because that performance piece, we often think of it within sport, but it's everywhere, I mean, Performers can be musicians, theater public speakers, coaches doing anything can really be boiled down to I'm performing something. and it does [00:12:00] also involve that behavior change. So if you're interested, you might be interested in a master's in sport and performance psychology. Just saying.
Jess: believe me, if I wasn't staring down like eight more months of student loan payments before they're all gone. That's the one piece where I'm like, okay, maybe it's, yeah, it's definitely been
Hannah: there are graduate assistantships as an option. I didn't pay anything besides a couple hundred dollars in student fees during my first master's. Just [00:12:30] saying, there are
Jess: I might need to pick your brain on this later.
But the listeners don't need to hear me brainstorming my next, my next career path right now. Oh my god.
Okay, I want to turn this, so we're gonna go two directions. One, I want to turn this to talking about kind of your, body image, like, history, your story.
Just, we had touched on that when we had our chat a couple months ago, and just how that background really lit the fire for you, like being at the Eating Disorder Treatment Center and like you looking like, oh my gosh, these are the [00:13:00] areas I want to focus. And then also I'm going to go back to where you're focusing on in your PhD and what your research topic is because it just ties into Sturdy Girl so well.
So yeah, two parts, one personal, one professional, if you will.
So take it away.
Hannah: I guess we can start with a little more on my like body image journey. and sometimes I struggle with the word journey because to me that insinuates like an end point or a [00:13:30] destination that we reach when I've come to realize, and you seem to also agree of like, it's never a destination.
It's always going to be there and it's going to continue throughout life. I mean, especially being a woman going through puberty, going through menopause. When I get older our bodies change and our relationships. With our bodies will also change and ebb and flow and realizing that has been one of the actually [00:14:00] hardest things for me to come to terms with because it's one thing to realize that I've internalized, you know, self objectification and, you know, Viewing my body as an object to be consumed rather than something to just help me get through life and day to day life or internalized fat phobia that society has taught us to fear fat and fear weight gain and fear body changes.
And it's one thing to realize that, and then to realize that even on the [00:14:30] days where I feel good about how my body either looks or how it feels, what it can do. There's also going to be a day that comes later where I don't feel as good. and that's been the hardest part, realizing that that is okay. And that's part of life.
and that's part of being in the society that we live in that is so hyper focused on appearance especially now with like Ozempic. Being mainstream, and everybody, seemingly everybody, you know, online and on [00:15:00] social media dropping weight like crazy, and us not knowing a ton about the side effects yet it makes sense too, that it's going to change, And so that's something I still work on constantly and trying to have self compassion for those moments when I feel almost like a hypocrite at times where I'm researching body image, I'm speaking about weight stigma, and how we should focus on what our bodies can do and our [00:15:30] relationship with our body instead of our appearance.
And then feeling. You know, going home and feeling self conscious about my appearance or judging how I look like. I feel like a hypocrite often in those days. And so practicing self compassion in those moments is so powerful and so liberating and easier said than done. would say it's been a process and I see myself having more, Better days than worse days.
Whereas when I [00:16:00] was, you know, a teenager in college, it felt constant that I was always judging myself. I was never skinny enough, pretty enough, anything. And now more often than not, I can at least feel comfortable or neutral in my body. And that's been a challenge. it's been an interesting journey nonetheless.
Jess: I think that really speaks to the human experience, and I just appreciate that you're like, it's a journey without a destination. And I like to have the conversation with body image as like when [00:16:30] we get to a quote unquote healthy place, whether that is neutrality, acceptance, positivity, flexibility, like whatever that might look like, the true I don't want to say measure of a healthy place, but it's It's spending less time and energy thinking about our bodies and our appearance, utilizing so much of that energy towards how we look or that self objectification piece, or how am I being perceived by other people and, you know, really paying a special attention to the clothes you wear, makeup you put on, or those things, right?
It's less [00:17:00] energy there and more energy on the Living your life
Hannah: Yes. And being.
Jess: and yeah, and being and like, and it's one of those things that I've had a few conversations around this recently, not just on the podcast, but just humans on the day to day. Oddly enough, I ended up talking about my podcast fairly often while I'm working in the dental office uh, which has been kind of fun, but when people are like, well, what, What does a healthy body image mean anyways? And I'm like, well, it's a lot of things. But the one that people get really, I think, ruffled about is when you're like, no, it just means that you. Think about it [00:17:30] less. It's not that you're looking in the mirror and you're like, oh my god, I'm so hot. This is
amazing.
That's not it. That's not the answer. And maybe for some of us, we get to a point where we look in the mirror and we love our appearance or we love the shape of our thighs or whatever it might be. But like the vast majority of us, That's not what we're aiming for.
Hannah: Right. And to me, this is my own personal opinion, that sounds so fleeting. Because like I said, if I'm focused on loving how I look right [00:18:00] now, I'm not gonna look the same right now, next week, next year, ten years from now. you know, I'm nearing. 30 years old and thinking more and more about, being 50, 70. and I want to be able to just be in those moments of my life and experiencing what's in front of me, rather than focused on, I wish I looked like how I did when I was 30. And then when I'm 30 thinking about, Oh, I wish I looked Like, I did when I was 18. Like, [00:18:30] that's completely unattainable and just sounds like a recipe for misery,
Jess: Yeah. Frustration. Like, when you're 95 years old, are you going to wish that you spend as much energy as you are right now on your body?
Hannah: Right.
Jess: and our bodies are meant to change. I think that's to where you're like, you're not going to look the same next week as you do in a year as you do. I recently interviewed someone who is a parenting counselor in Australia, actually.
And we talked about, like, the body image changes that go through when you go through [00:19:00] pregnancy. your body changes. Insanely, like being raised in a society that's like stuck in your stomach, don't show your fat rules, like very, very much like the smaller the stomach, the better. And then to suddenly purposefully be growing your belly and like all of the things that that can bring up.
And then the postpartum piece of like bounce back culture and all of that, when your bodies do very deliberately change.
you need to, yeah. And then you go through menopause and your body changes because the hormonal changes are insane. all of those [00:19:30] pieces, our bodies aren't meant to stay the same.
Hannah: Exactly. so, yeah, if you're tying, if you're tying the healthy body image, being able to look in the mirror and be like, Oh, I like everything about me. What are you doing? It changes.
Exactly. And subtly slash not so subtly shifting towards some of my research.
Jess: Let's do it.
Hannah: I recently did a study where I surveyed Women athletes in college about their embodiment, and we can get more into what that really means. But a lot of responses came from athletes, maybe [00:20:00] who are feeling more positively about their body.
They talked about that they were feeling good now because they were an athlete who spends 20 plus hours a week exercising and competing and. That's another big issue, especially for athletes, is we might feel good as an athlete and many athletes don't as they're an athlete, but then that transition out of sport can be even harder when we expect our bodies to [00:20:30] stay the same all the time.
or. Wish that we could go back in time. That transition is so hard and so jarring for people. And I think. That is one of one of the top reasons why I'm excited about doing this research and doing this work is because an athlete, speaking of changes, athletes, careers, end that is a fact now your definition of an athlete can change.
You know, I, I like to think of people can be forever athletes, but competing, you know, [00:21:00] in college, even at the professional level, That's going to end. So being able to prepare yourself now for that ending and for that transition, the new beginning of going from competitive athlete to forever athlete, or sometimes I've heard everyday athlete, and that is one of the most important pieces of being able to figure out that.
I really like body, image, flexibility, and embodiment to prepare yourself, for sure.
Jess: just thinking even on the like [00:21:30] everyday athlete level when I was running a ton And I was full on running obsessed. My entire identity was being a runner
And was very much middle of the pack So it wasn't ever that I was like winning races or anything, but I was like Hell bent on improvement, getting faster, all the things.
And then I tried four marathon cycles just back to back to back on a super high volume training plan that had worked for so many, so many of my friends. So like, it's going to work for me and burnt myself out [00:22:00] completely. And I suddenly couldn't put on my running shoes without being a sobbing mess.
Like it was like that level of burnout and it took. six months of being able to even get the shoes back on and want to go run again. But that identity crisis of like, well, if I'm not a runner, then who am I? Like that piece in and of itself. So when you're talking about like, competing, on a collegiate level or professional level, knowing those athletic careers and that identity that you had for so long, that's going to tie into your body image.
It's going to tie into [00:22:30] your relationship with self. the heck do you prepare yourself? that's a big. bit of work.
Hannah: Yes, and not easy work either. I mean, I had a very similar experience with basketball. I was so, so burnt out by the time I decided to stop competing. that was when I was 19 years old when I made that decision. And I played my first pickup game two weeks ago, since then. That It has taken me, almost nine [00:23:00] years to feel like I can go back and just play. For fun. and a lot of it was body image related, not all of it. but it was all mental stuff and being able to put those shoes on for once and just play and have fun was so liberating and so exciting.
so if I can help or if anybody, this research, this talking about it can help people close that gap. So it's not nine years. Maybe you take some time off, but you [00:23:30] can return to sports still in a different way or new try new sports, try new hobbies even, and feel comfortable and. liberated doing them like that.
That is the goal.
Jess: That's awesome. Okay, were you just like, oh my god, so exhilarated actually playing a game of pickup? Like, I can't believe I'm doing this.
Hannah: yes. And I was playing against a bunch of, 18 year olds. So that was also an interesting dynamic because since I'm a grad student, I can play the intramurals. And so I [00:24:00] played with them and it was really interesting because it's like, okay, people I'm playing against now. That was the time when I quit and never returned.
Now, granted. I've been coaching for 10 plus years, so I've, you know, I've shot, I've played, I've ran in drills because I'm a coach, but like an entire game competing for fun? No, couldn't be me for lots of reasons. So seeing that dynamic too of like, Oh, I could picture. Myself, on this [00:24:30] same court with me when I was 19, 20, and almost feeling a sense of grief that it took me so long, but at the same time, happiness that I did finally do it.
I mean, there was two teams in this entire women's intramural basketball league. so I wasn't sure what I was getting into and I'm really, we played exactly one game because that's. Yeah. Like all we had, but I was really glad that I did it and we lost and I didn't care and I didn't care how I looked. There were people [00:25:00] watching both on the sidelines and just like casually. 'cause we were in the rec center. And I realized if this had been a couple years ago, I probably wouldn't have played because I would've been so self-conscious about how I looked, both appearance-wise, but also looked. Playing like, do I look like an athlete?
Do I look like I know what I'm doing? And to not have to worry about that was so
Jess: what huge growth and recognition of growth too.
Hannah: Trying to.
Jess: Okay, I want to talk more about your specific area [00:25:30] of research on embodiment and Really want to open it up to you on what that means what it looks like and how that applies within Body image like tell me all the things
Hannah: Yeah. So embodiment, I don't even remember how I stumbled upon this research but the term embodiment has been around for a long time. I mean, I, I literally looked it up for this interview and it's at least since the 1800s, but the concept of positive embodiment as it [00:26:00] relates to body images. a lot newer. And the framework that I used is, is based on Dr. Niva who describes how we engage our bodies in the world and how we feel in our bodies is embodiment. And this contrasts with kind of pop culture's idea of body image, which typically focuses on how we feel about our bodies instead of In it, such as about our appearance, about even our ability and functionality of [00:26:30] looking at the outside in that can be harmful.
So this concept of embodiment and positive embodiment takes a little more of a holistic approach. and Dr. Perron describes it through five different types of experiences. First body connection and comfort. So what we typically. think about when we think of body images, that body connection and comfort in our body's attuned self care.
So, do we know what our body needs? For one, which can be [00:27:00] hard for some people. And then, do we actually give it what it needs? You know, do I feel my hunger and then feed myself, right? Do I feel my fatigue? And go to bed like it can be something as simple as that. the other three inhabiting the body as a subjective site rather than an objective site, which is a mouthful, but basically the idea of again shifting perspective of instead of outside looking in.
I'm inside looking in, like how, how [00:27:30] do I feel in my home in my body versus. How do I think I look or how do I think I feel from the outside? and what people might judge me about and then agency and functionality. So this idea of like using our voice, using our autonomy and our choice to make change in the world.
The world and for ourselves speaking up when something's not right, or even when we just have an opinion, it doesn't even have to be something groundbreaking, but are we speaking up [00:28:00] and, and using our voice and our ability. And the last one is it this experience and expression of. desire. And this can be, through sexuality. It can also be through literal appetite, especially when we're thinking about disordered eating. Like, we disrupt that a lot of, I'm really want a cookie. For maybe I'm not even hungry, but I'm really craving a cookie and that is okay. And we often demonize that feeling of desire and craving, [00:28:30] but it's part of being a human being and we can honor that feeling, and that can be really empowering.
So I really enjoy. Researching and thinking about this idea of embodiment because on days where maybe my connection and comfort is a little unsteady. Maybe I'm not feeling as comfortable or connected to my body. I could be shift my focus and focus on that self care or using my voice or trying to challenge at [00:29:00] least feeling objectified or even internalizing objectification.
So that's kind of how I describe embodiment and would slash will hopefully use that framework when I'm licensed counselor and finally working with athletes on that mental health side.
Jess: That's a really awesome explanation of embodiment. what has your research looked like thus far, like, tell me more on that.
Hannah: Yeah, so I'm finishing up a very large project, arguably too [00:29:30] large for my degree, but I was looking at athletes in women's sports at the collegiate level and just first wanted to document their embodiment and see how they're doing. because we know that athletes in women's sports are at a really high risk for disordered eating.
They're unhappy often with how their body looks and how it performs. So I wanted to get a little more of a holistic picture, and to [00:30:00] see if there was a relationship too, how we feel in our bodies things like Performance, sport performance, sport enjoyment, and even my commitment to my sport because we have so much knowledge and we have a lot of tools to help athletes improve their relationships with their bodies.
I'm not going to say we don't, we have incredible ones out there, but it's not always being used or prioritized especially at the college [00:30:30] level when there's such a high risk. So my idea of looking at these other variables like enjoyment and commitment is to see one, If there is a relationship, like I think there is, and two highlight this for athletic directors, coaches, you know, national governing bodies of like, we already knew there was a problem.
Yes. And we now see that there's a relationship between an athlete's commitment to their sport, which is what I'm finding in the data and their enjoyment in their sport. [00:31:00] And how they think they perform. So if we continue to neglect this area in sport, athletes are going to continue to drop out. They're going to go into the transfer portal if they do stay in sport, or they're going to just burn out.
You're not going to see the performance that you want. Again, if we're thinking kind stakeholder side, you're not going to see that growth. athletes aren't going to be as happy. They're going to develop other mental health concerns. Which we already know, but now, through the data that I've seen, now we know [00:31:30] that, and it's documented, so I'm excited to get this research finally, like, out there and published, and to hopefully see what other people continue to also build off with that.
Jess: That's a massive undertaking.
Hannah: Yeah, and there is even more to it than what I just described, but that would probably take us a lot longer than we have time for, but those were kind of the biggest pieces and the pieces that I was most excited to explore.
Jess: That's awesome. So turning this to just like, gen pop, [00:32:00] if you will, to, to us average non collegiate athletes. In the concept of embodiment, do you have any, I want to say tips, but direction or conversations to be had for people that are like, hey, this sounds, this really resonates with me. I like this idea of embodiment.
you know, we talked about the five different experiences of like what embodiment involves, but maybe what, we could maybe do to work on
this.
Hannah: So first off, don't neglect those other pieces. we focus a lot, especially [00:32:30] as girls and women in society, we're taught to focus. on appearance, and how we look and how we behave in society. and I'm never going to say that you have to forget about all that, right? Because that is the society that we live in.
and sometimes you have to, but remembering there's other pieces to our relationship with our body, like that self care piece, the agency, using your voice, using your [00:33:00] power, especially now, at the time we are at, women using their voice and power is so important. and then noticing how focusing on those pieces can actually kind of indirectly impact your body image and how you feel more about your body as well, because that's why it's all together.
That's why it's put into this idea of embodiment, because they're all related and they all impact each other. So I would encourage again, just to kind of [00:33:30] sum it up, focusing on those other areas, especially on days where maybe you feel not so confident or not so good, or really stuck in that feeling of negative spiral, maybe, of judging yourself or thinking negatively about how you look, how you feel, and focusing, shifting that attention elsewhere to see if you can disrupt those thoughts and at least kind of regulate those thoughts and emotions and then hopefully slash Likely, [00:34:00] you'll see an improvement too in that body image piece.
Jess: Those are really helpful. I think about too, depending on the day, like, first of all, we forever and always will have body image disruptions, forever and always will have good body image days and bad body image days, and sometimes it's worth that internal reflection of, like, challenging the thoughts and challenging, like, what's coming up.
And then other times, it's what you're talking about, like, the other ways of taking action to stuff that's outside of that experience or [00:34:30] feelings about our body. So you're, like, using your voice, getting involved. Like, I think that that's not something that is talked about enough in the body image space.
I think that we talk about like, the curation of our social media feeds or things like that, or people you surround yourself with. Like there's a lot to be said there, but specifically I was thinking in context of like, since starting this podcast, I'm like, oh my gosh, like I feel like the body image space is evolving.
And then I realized that no, I've just stopped seeing and looking for of the like [00:35:00] crazy, shake your butt in a bikini on camera because that equals body positivity. Mindset like I have so seen that stuff as much and I'm like, Oh, no, no, it's still out there. There's still a lot of people that talk about that.
But I've surrounded myself with people who are on the research end of things who are on the experiential piece of it. So this conversation, I think, too, is just making me think about the origins of body positivity movement. talking about a lot of like, the work that needs to be done in society.
And especially, too, given [00:35:30] current climate and just feeling like, Okay, what are some of these actions that we can take? So, I like that that is kind of where this conversation is going. Because there's so much more conversation and action that needs to come
Hannah: 1000%. I agree. And I've practiced it myself and noticed when I am feeling empowered and liberated, regardless of how I was feeling about how I looked maybe five minutes ago, the day before, I just feel [00:36:00] better. And like I said earlier those feelings can creep back and they probably will because again, that's the society that we live in, even though we're trying to change that of course but it brings me comfort to recognize and know these feelings will all change.
Like when I'm feeling bad. Even outside of body image, just negative or sad, heavy emotions in general, remembering and recognizing that this feeling will end has been also empowering. okay, this will end. And if I [00:36:30] lean into it and like, feel those feelings, which is, I would argue a part of that attuned self care piece of embodiment of letting your body tell you what it needs to feel and what it needs to do.
And sometimes when I'm feeling particularly sad or burnt out, I am a grad student after all I allow myself, I feel that and I allow myself to bedrot and feel those. It's really heavy, heavy emotions, because I know they will pass if I just let them come and [00:37:00] go. yeah, that would be some of the biggest things to take away for me as
well.
Jess: That's fantastic, because then you're not letting it mean anything about you. And that's one of those things, too, that within body image, within self confidence, within any of these things related to, like, relationship with self that we work on, is letting those things come up. Understanding that these feelings that's something that I find really fascinating is how many Buddhist principles tie in with a lot of like body image type research.
The idea like [00:37:30] impermanence, right? Everything is temporary, including those feelings. And I find this really interesting this time of year, especially where we have a lot less daylight. I say as I watch it get dark
outside your window right now, you know,
like,
all right. three hour time difference,
and talking about, like, seasonal affective disorder and how much that impacts our mood and our feelings and the conversations around, like, it's temporary and it doesn't have to mean anything about you.
If we let ourself feel those feels, they're going to pass. But the more that you try to attach yourself onto them, [00:38:00] hold onto them, make them mean things about you, the The more that they perpetuate, the deeper they get embedded in a way that it's harder to work your way through, or out of, or whatever it is, letting it pass.
yeah, it's an ongoing conversation.
Hannah: Yeah, and you perfectly described kind of the key component of acceptance and commitment therapy, which is a type of therapy that's having a moment right
Jess: Oh, it's, I love, I
yes, all things act, yeah,
Hannah: yeah,
it's like, wait, so that you've perfectly [00:38:30] described self as context versus self as content. so yeah, so it extends well past body image and all emotions and feelings.
And the tricky part can be when you're dealing with maybe something more chronic, like an eating disorder. Like those feelings can feel like they never go away. They never change. but trying to shift perspective and then noticing when they might always be there. But when are they not as [00:39:00] strong or when are they not as present because that will always happen or major, you know, major depression or generalized anxiety, those feelings might always be lurking, you know, while you're still struggling with them, but they're not always at 100 percent intense.
And recognizing those changes and fluctuations can help you enjoy those moments where they're a little less and be able to act in those moments and continue that work to, you know, hopefully [00:39:30] reduce that noise as you go on and on. I love act, I mean, psychological flexibility is like everything that we've talked about throughout this whole podcast.
So I love that you love it too.
Jess: the more reason why I'm like, yeah, the more reading I do, the more I want to go back to school.
Hannah: Right.
Jess: I think too, the, a lot of the psychological flexibility, I mean, that's a lot of what I lean towards within these conversations on Sturdy Girl is like body image flexibility in relation to like that emotional flexibility, cognitive flexibility.
[00:40:00] Like I think that it's an incredible skill set to practice because a lot of the conversation around body image, especially ends up being like, Very concrete examples instead of like, no, no, these things like body image doesn't exist in a vacuum. None of these things we're talking about, like, we exist in a world that has the media, social media, society as a whole, the systems that are in place, like, all of these, like, systemic issues, like, all of those things factor [00:40:30] into this.
So sure, like, in this very specific moment in time, I feel really good in my body.
Then you take and bring in the rest of things and you're like, oh crap. Okay. There's a lot more
there.
Hannah: Yes. And it would make sense to feel like an everlasting doom. Like that's why when people talk to me or even reading in the research, you know, people describing like, I never feel like it's going to get better. it makes sense. And I empathize with that so much. and I like that you also said that it's a [00:41:00] practice, it's something you have to practice and get better at.
I mean, I'm still. Trying to get better at it. like I said, some days I feel like a hypocrite because I'm saying one thing, but having a different internal experience. So constantly trying to practice it, you know, and bringing it back to sport. I constantly use the, comparison of, did you pick up a basketball, a golf club, a football and immediately you were as good as you are now, no. It took a lot of [00:41:30] time. It took a lot of failure actually to get better at it, to learn from it and get as good as you are now. And as good as you are now, isn't your peak, like you can still get better and you will see yourself get better. As long as you. continue to learn from failure. So I like to use that comparison within sport and out of sport because it's so, so relevant.
Jess: This is so good. wrapping all of this up if there was like one Takeaway that you wanted our listeners to remember from [00:42:00] this conversation What would it be?
Hannah: Well, I think it's something we've, talked about already, just this remembering that you will not feel a hundred percent confident or happy or good in your body all the time, 24 seven. And knowing that fact and thinking about it, again, can feel sad. we're taught if we work hard, we go to therapy, and we try all these things, we're gonna be happy, we're gonna reach that. that's ultimately [00:42:30] not the reality because we're humans and life happens. so being able to embrace that to then in the moments where you don't feel confident, where you don't feel good to embrace yourself and practice some self compassion of like, I know today is really hard or especially hard and It will end and that's okay. And you feel this way for valid reasons. We just talked about all the like systemic issues that can impact how we feel. Like there's no [00:43:00] shame also in feeling sad or negative about our bodies either. So that's probably one takeaway, if anything,
Jess: I like that. And it just goes back to the, the thought of impermanence, right? When you're like, these feelings will pass.
Hannah: Yes.
Jess: is there anything else you wanted to touch on as far as embodiment, body image, your journey,
journey with air quotes?
Hannah: we're redefining journey. How about that? journey without an end point. you know, it's funny with that question of like, oh yeah, [00:43:30] there's plenty more I could say. but I think we've covered kind of the main points that I think are some of the most important, this idea of impermanence, self compassion when things are hard and maybe shifting to a more holistic understanding of body image, which might be embodiment for some people. So I think we covered the main points.
Jess: that's perfect. Yeah. the concept of self compassion, we talked about it, but not identifying it. I think it's worth repeating because I've [00:44:00] brought it up on the podcast before. a lot of people view as like letting themselves off the hook. Like, Oh, I'm being self compassionate to myself.
Like I got home from work and I'm tired and I just, I'm recognizing I'm tired. So I'm not going to work out. And you're like, okay, that, that might be the answer, but self compassion might be Okay, I'm tired every day after work, and I recognize that, and so this is holding myself accountable to say, I'm getting in a 20 minute workout,
even when I'm tired, because then I can go to bed right after that, or whatever it is.
Like, self compassion it's not a free for
all.
Hannah: [00:44:30] And even like, maybe it's a 20 minute workout. Maybe I had a run planned. Maybe now I'm going to go for a walk,
you know,
Or, I, also struggle with this idea of, like, excuses or letting yourself off the hook because my mind kind of goes back to what we know about binge eating and cravings when it comes to eating disorders of, like, oftentimes it feels like an excuse and it feels like we're setting, letting ourselves off the hook because taking a rest [00:45:00] is shameful because we add this judgment to it just like I can't control myself around cookies because I don't allow myself to have cookies ever because they're bad.
Right? So maybe even shifting our mindset of what does rest look like, allowing ourselves to have more rest, or whatever this self compassion might look like, and you might see it balance out a little more. Like, maybe, At first, it looks like I'm not gonna work out after work for a [00:45:30] week, changing our mindset about what rest means.
Now I have more flexibility, So now I work out more consistently because I allow myself that flexibility.
Jess: Permission to understand, to listen. Permission and letting your body like, understand that your body is going to tell you what it needs.
Hannah: Yes. Yeah. very empowering. Yes. Oh my gosh. Okay, you've brought up cookies, so I want to jump into our, like, wrap up questions and I'm switching it switching it up on you from the ones I gave you.
Jess: I want to know if you have [00:46:00] a favorite kind of cookie.
Hannah: Ooh, honestly, a classic chocolate chip cookie. if anybody listening Is familiar with the Minnesota State Fair, probably a sweet Martha's cookie. It's perfect. It is literally the most perfect cookie and chocolate chip cookie that is out
there
for sure.
Jess: I need to make my first trip to Minnesota just to to try one of these
Hannah: Yes. People do. You wouldn't be the first.
Jess: I mean, I do have friends out there, so maybe I do need to give it a [00:46:30] whirl.
Okay, so my next fun question is a little bit of a long one. I like to pick a word for each year. And sometimes it's related to my current core values, sometimes it's not, but I like to choose one that's, like, this is, like, the energy with which I want to go into the year with. we're getting closer to 2025.
So I was curious if you have like a word that you picked for, for next year.
Hannah: Thinking about this, and it's funny we just ended on talking about self compassion, because that, I [00:47:00] think, is my word, and it's my energy because it's Probably the thing that I struggle with the most is having self compassion. especially as I'm getting down to the very last grind of being a grad student and things get more difficult and heavier and more time sensitive.
And I need to practice self compassion and even compassion with others, because when I'm feeling burnt out, I Notice myself get less compassionate and that's, [00:47:30] it's like a negative cycle because when I'm not as compassionate towards others, then it kind of bounces back towards me towards myself. And then it's just this spiral. So I really want to be about
that.
Jess: I like that. great word. Especially choosing it in the season you're in too.
Hannah: Right. I don't know if I have a word yet for next year. I've been leaning towards the word savor. Only because I found myself noticing like the idea of being present and enjoying the present moment in [00:48:00] savoring.
Jess: really working on Just with like with food and enjoying food because I'm, I'm really good at sitting down and reading my Kindle while I'm eating and recognizing that being present with your food makes you enjoy it more. and so that piece or like savoring the small moments, like when we go take the dogs on a walk and I realized that there's every single color of leaf on the ground, you know, just really trying to make it a point because kind of came up from the The article, the top five regrets of the dying and talking about like, enjoying your life [00:48:30] and, and recognizing how much the small moments are the big moments.
and especially when you're busy, which most of us understand very well it's harder to, to recognize those. So that's where
I'm leaning right now. Yeah,
Hannah: it sounds like there's a lot of energy behind that one. So
Jess: Okay what is the number one book you've recommended or given as a
gift?
Hannah: I need to give more books as gifts. I don't think I ever have, but if I were to recommend, and I think my recommendation [00:49:00] for anybody in any kind of field is what we don't talk about when we talk about fat by Aubrey Gordon. First off the book is written wonderfully, really easy to read.
And two, it just opens your eyes to so many crazy things about, like we talked about society, body ideals. BMI, which I won't get on my soapbox about and
she includes, yes,
to sum it all up, [00:49:30] and many, many other things, but she, she writes it also from, from a research perspective, she does have research support in her book, but also from a lived experience perspective.
I just love the book. She also is the co host of the podcast Maintenance Phase,
Jess: Ooh. Okay, I need to
check that
out.
Hannah: that too. Yeah.
Jess: Thank you. I always need more podcasts in my life.
Okay, last fun question. How do you take your coffee or [00:50:00] tea or morning beverage of choice?
Hannah: Ooh, depends on the day. Some days it's fruity carbonated. energy drink. I really love Alanis but if I'm drinking coffee, which is still very often I love a good like flavored latte with oat milk. I love oat milk, yes. Usually I gravitate towards caramel or vanilla classics, but especially now with like the holidays, pumpkin spice latte,
Jess: it's a little basic bitch action, [00:50:30] you know? It's
Hannah: I am not ashamed. I'm not ashamed. I love
Jess: It's
Hannah: for a reason.
Jess: Agreed. Absolutely. I drink like an Americano or a black coffee in the mornings and I'm kind of a coffee snob, but there's something fun like all the holiday drinks. if I have trouble getting up to my 5 30 alarm for work, I'll be like, if you get up now, you have time to go through the Starbucks drive through.
I don't super love Starbucks for many reasons, but mobile ordering, When you're short on time. I just [00:51:00] saw they have the, their sugar cookie latte. Yeah. That's my current favorite.
Hannah: Back home in Minnesota, I really love caribou, it's like the Minnesota version of Starbucks but less problematic. And they have mobile order, so I love, love me some caribou. And they're in Florida for some reason. Yeah.
Jess: random.
Hannah: I saw them at a Florida airport once. It was weird.
Jess: All right. where can audiences find you and learn
more?
Hannah: So I'm mostly an Instagram girly which is just at. My name, Hannah Silva [00:51:30] Breen. I also recommend, and this is partly because I'm connected to these organizations, the Tucker Center for Research on Girls and Women in Sport for all things like gender equity in sport and the Center for Appearance Research, all things related to body and appearance, both in and out of sport.
Jess: Love the resources. Thank you for that. And thank you for this wonderful conversation
Hannah: Yes. Thank you for having
me.
Jess: And my husband's going to blame you [00:52:00] if I go back to school.
Hannah: I'll take that blame. That's Perfect. Oh my gosh. this is great. friends, thank you so much for listening to another episode of Sturdy Girl. We will catch you next Friday.