49. Unapologetic Eating and Body Liberation with Alissa Rumsey, Dietitian and Author
Join Jess as she chats with Alissa Rumsey, a registered dietitian, intuitive eating counselor, and author of 'Unapologetic Eating: Make Peace with Food and Transform Your Life'. Alyssa shares her journey into nutrition, starting from her high school years filled with diet culture to discovering intuitive eating and recognizing the social justice components of her work. They discuss the process of unlearning diet culture, the impact of allowing and feeling emotions, and the concept of power through collective liberation. The conversation emphasizes awareness, mindfulness, and the deeper connections between food relationships and self-empowerment. Alyssa's book is structured in four parts: Fixing, Allowing, Feeling, and Growing, aimed at guiding readers from self-compassion to unapologetic living.
Learn more about Alissa HERE.
Check out Sturdy Girl Merch HERE.
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Jess: [00:00:00] Hello friends, and welcome back to another episode of Sturdy Girl. A, another wonderful interview this morning with Alyssa Rumsey. She is a registered dietitian, certified intuitive eating counselor, and author of the book, Unapologetic Eating, make peace with food and transform your life. Alyssa, hello.
Thank you for joining us.
Alissa: Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.
Jess: Alyssa was kind enough to send me a copy of her book, and oh my gosh, there is so much resonance of your book, and [00:00:30] Sturdy girl and how much like we talk about self compassion about relationship with self.
, this is perfect. So thank you so much for being on. I'm, I'm really stoked for this conversation.
Alissa: Yeah. Thank you. And I love, I love hearing that. It never gets old hearing feedback about the book and how it resonates. So I appreciate it.
Jess: Can you tell me a little bit more about how, okay. One I want to know about. you decided to write a book but also I'd love to hear how you got into, I'm going to say like the nutrition space, broadly [00:01:00] speaking being a dietitian all of that. I, I just want to open the floor to you to share.
Alissa: Yeah. So I'll start there. Cause I've been a dietitian for. 16 years at this point. And my interest in nutrition and the term wellness was not really around 20 plus years ago, but when I was in high school, but kind of in nutrition and health started, there was sort of two pieces. One is that I was in high school, Was someone who was a really active [00:01:30] kid, played a ton of sports, never thought about what I ate or what my body looked like until I hit puberty.
Which as I've learned is a very common experience for folks. Especially people socialized as women. And so I hit puberty and around the same time, stopped playing one of my sports and gained weight and what I now know is a very normal and natural and needed weight gain. But at the time it felt like, oh my God, like my body was changing and kind of panicking about that.
And I was [00:02:00] introduced to the concept of dieting in high school. And it sort of also coincided with two other things. One is that I was in a biology class where we started learning about digestion. And I found it fascinating. I just found it a very like science brain. I love science. And I found the science of it very interesting about, you know, depending what we eat and like how things are digested and how our body uses them and all this stuff.
So there was definitely like that component. But then I was also starting to work out at a gym and befriended a trainer. [00:02:30] who maybe did not have the best nutrition advice, especially for a teenage, a teenager. But I started like going down the rabbit hole of learning about nutrition on my own. And long story short, my foray into dieting as a teen ended up in disordered eating.
Which at the time I did not, I see that looking back at the time, it just was like, oh no, this is healthy, quote unquote. So I developed some of my own Disordered eating patterns, and that continued into college. But that was what prompted me to want to be a dietician, was my [00:03:00] experience in there, and also I got a lot of attention for being the quote unquote healthy eater in my friend group, and right, this was like the early 2000s, so it was a bit, like that wasn't really a thing in high school.
And so I was getting this like positive attention and feedback for body changes and for being like, so healthy, quote unquote and I decided to go into nutrition as a career path. And then. I feel like, again, just I do have a lot of body privilege and so while my disordered [00:03:30] eating continued through college and then once I graduated and got my first job working as a dietitian just through the circumstances I was in, I was moved to New York City, it was in my early 20s, I was working in a clinical setting with a lot of other dieticians around my age all of whom actually had pretty good relationships to food and like the New York City food scene and just the excitement of being in this new city kind of slowly over the course of a couple of years, I sort of naturally became less rigid around food [00:04:00] and sort of without So.
Any, like, not purposely trying to heal my relationship with food, but became more in tune with my body. Um, I had started doing yoga, and so, yeah, it was just kind of all sort of moving in that direction. But I, myself, as a clinician, did not learn about intuitive eating until maybe, like, eight years into my career.
And that really made a huge shift both because I could see in my life, how I had kind of naturally gotten to that place and I could see how the work I had been doing with clients was [00:04:30] harmful in a lot of ways and not really supporting people in their health by being more prescriptive and more, you know, rules around food and things like that.
So yeah, my discovery was intuitive eating and then from there. Health at Every Size, and from there more like the social justice components of this work and how it dovetails with that. And then, yeah, that accumulated in writing the book a couple of years ago, which really encompasses all of those things.
Jess: that journey of [00:05:00] up being a child, like adolescent in the early 2000s. Same. The exposure to dieting right around the time of hitting puberty because we naturally gain weight and it being like, here's a way to control that, right? So many people resonate with that, as like that being a very common experience.
But then using that, going into the nutrition space, all of those things I love your tie in at the very end where you're like, this journey of nutrition. Okay, [00:05:30] here is intuitive eating and how this is going to change how I help. But then going all the way to like the social justice piece is huge.
I mean and it's really rad to see how your career and focus has evolved over time too. Yeah, thanks for sharing that, like, the entire journey. I have had a couple of other dieticians on the show over the last year and it's interesting to me, they both had similar stories to you of that introduction to dieting in high [00:06:00] school or even middle school.
And then how interesting our, our relationship with food and the interest in food and then getting through, like you said, yours was more post college of just naturally overcoming a lot of those disordered eating behaviors. But for some of them, it was like a confrontation of like, holy crap, I have been viewing this so wrong.
Or being able to help someone clinically and then not be able to look in the mirror and see like, oh. This isn't how I, I want to treat my own body. [00:06:30] that's fantastic. was there any kind of impetus to unapologetic eating of like, all right, it's time to write a book. Was it just wanting to reach more people and broaden that scope?
Or
Alissa: Good question. So I feel like I got very lucky timing wise. So I had been writing, I'd been blogging on my own website and been doing some writing for few different, like, media outlets, and there's a publishing company, so this was Towards the end of 2019. And so Intuitive Eating was like [00:07:00] just starting to kind of come a little bit more into the lexicon with like social media and things like that.
It had sort of been flying under the radar, even though it's something, right, I mean, Intuitive Eating, the framework, something Evelyn Triboli and Elish Raish developed in the 90s, the 1990s. So it's been around and evolved over time. But like 2019, it was like starting to become a little more like Oh, yeah, I've heard of that.
I'm not really sure what it is, but I've heard of it. Like, if you would ask people and so this publisher one of the executives in the publishing company. was just like [00:07:30] introduced the concept and A was like, wow, this is really interesting. And then also B from a business perspective, they saw, I think it was like some media outlet named it like, which is kind of ironic, right?
The like top diet of like 2020 or like a top diet trend for like going into 2020. So they're like, Oh, we want it. They were writing a lot of, the publisher was publishing a lot of like diet and recipe books. And they're like, We want to publish some books about intuitive eating. And so they actually reached out to me because they started like researching and my writing came up.
And at the time I [00:08:00] wasn't, I'd always thought like, Oh, maybe someday writing a book, but I like didn't have a proposal. I was like, not in a place where I'm like, Oh, I want to do this now. But they reached out and it's actually funny. I almost. Didn't think it was a real thing at first. I almost didn't even respond to the email.
Luckily, I did.
Jess: you're like, it's spam. This is spam.
Alissa: I was like, this doesn't seem real. And even going into the phone call, I still have a phone call, I did not prep at all because I like still thought it was kind of like some scammy thing. And then, you know, was having this conversation and they were like, What would you want to write a book about?
And again, I had [00:08:30] not prepped at all for this, and it's so wild to me, and I think this just speaks to, like, the stuff we have inside of us that's, like, more subconscious. I popped out, like, a two sentence book pitch that ended up, like, being the full backbone of the book, and I had, like, not really, like, consciously thought about it.
But it was like very clearly in me and they were like, that sounds great. Let's do it. And, you know, negotiate a contract and all that stuff. So it really fell into my lap because I had been doing writing and was like putting myself out there [00:09:00] online but I got really lucky of, you know, not having to do the traditional like proposal and agent and stuff like that.
Jess: Good job for taking a chance on a potentially scam email.
Alissa: I know, thank goodness. I was like, thank goodness I responded and set up a phone call and I was very close to just ignoring that.
Jess: also the fact that you. Off the cuff, had your two second pitch, and here you are. there. It was there all along. Okay, so how did you decide on the title, Unapologetic Eating? Because I know you said it, like, [00:09:30] it helps the reader make peace with food, transform their lives as a result. It's like your, your focus within the book.
So tell me about that.
Alissa: So that's another really interesting story
Jess: I love stories! This is my favorite!
Alissa: so when we planned on the book and signed the contract, and I didn't have a title yet, and they're like, that's fine, we'll figure that out down the road, like, don't worry about it, so it was some, like, untitled thing to start with.
And I think I had been using the word unapologetic in, like, I think it was maybe in my [00:10:00] social media bio, I think I, like, occasionally used that. About like being unapologetic or something to that effect. But I had no, I had actually done no thinking about the book title. And a couple months into me writing the book, and they had some of my chapters, And the book publisher reached out again and they're like, Hey, we've been tossing some ideas around the office.
What do you think of the title? Unapologetic eating? And I was like, love it. that sounds great. I was like, yeah, that like really a lot. And I didn't even like put together that title. I had been using that word. So it was really [00:10:30] interesting. And then, so this is in 2020. I wrote my book in 2020, which was an experience.
So this was in 2020. they're like, how about unapologetic eating? And I'm like, yeah, that sounds great. Like really aligns and definitely like we're going with the book. And I see that really dovetailing well. Fast forward to like, Manuscript is finished, we're like doing the final edits, like designing the cover, all this stuff.
It's like maybe fall of 2020. And I find this journal of mine that I had kept a year prior, fall of [00:11:00] 2019, I had been at a retreat for a week. And one of the things we had done at the retreat, and I had like kept a journal, had not opened it in a year, like hadn't even thought about it, and that was even before, this was like pre the publisher even reaching out, and one of the activities we did during the retreat was this a Japanese word, it's called ikigai, and it's sort of like, The best way I know how to describe it is like a brainstorming type of activity.
And I was like, oh, I remember I found this journal. I'm like, oh, I think I had some, like, good ideas when I did this activity. I can't even [00:11:30] remember what they were. Let me, like, flip through and try to, like, find them. One of them was a book called Unapologetic Eating. Yes, this was, like, pre publisher, like, pre everything.
I was like, a book called this, which I had promptly forgot about, had not thought about. And then, so just again, one of those very wild, and like, proof to me that like, this was in me, it had been brewing even though it wasn't a conscious thing. And so I'd been like, putting out enough of that that obviously the publisher picked up on it, and we're like, oh, how about we call it this?
And I'm like, yeah, that [00:12:00] sounds cool, and then like, six months later, find this journal, and I was like, oh my god, I had this idea, over a year ago.
Jess: I am not a religious person, necessarily. I've become more, I would say, like, woo woo in the last couple of years, but just how you're talking about this whole, how it all came to be is very much like the universe intervening in a way, you know, we're unapologetic eating, the fact that that was something you wrote about, and then here you are. and having the, the publishers be the one that are like, Hey we actually plucked this out of [00:12:30] your subconscious. I don't know if you knew that, but
Alissa: I know, right? I mean, it is really wild. I, too, have become more woo in recent years and it was still just one of those things of like, okay, this is, yeah, universe pointing me in a direction, for
Jess: yeah, okay. On the topic of woo for a second, I was so against being any kind of woo for so long. And I was like, Oh, that's a bunch of BS. And there are so many things in the last couple of years where I'm like, okay, okay, okay. I get it. There's some validity in the woo. It just kind of stares you in the face [00:13:00] multiple times over.
Alissa: Totally. Totally. Yeah, I've had like a handful of experiences where it's like, okay, I'm still, like, very science brained, love research and all of that, but I'm also, like, there's some things that we just, like, can't really explain, and it is, I'm also not religious, wasn't, like, raised religious but yeah, it has been something that I've, and again, just seeing some of these synchronicities come through, it's, like, okay.
Can't make this stuff
up.
Jess: I'm also very science brained. It's interesting. So, working in healthcare and just that, like, that is how my brain [00:13:30] functions. And then my husband is a writer. And so he has the very, like, story brain other side of things. Like, everything is a story worth telling, and that's how our beliefs come about.
And I'm over here like, show me the science. And he's like, Jess,
sometimes
Alissa: data.
Jess: sometimes that's not how things work. the longer we've been together, it's almost a decade now, but like the, the longer we're together, I'm like, okay, I see what you mean now.
Alissa: Oh that's nice. Like having some of that balance is nice. Cause yeah, my, it [00:14:00] sounds like my brain works very similar to yours as well.
Jess: it's nice at times and it's maddening at times because I'm like, okay, we're building a podcast and he helps me a lot on the back end with things, helps edit do a lot of that. And I'm over here like creating strategy and looking at the analytics and the downloads and the this and that and he's like, how about you tell a better story, Jess?
I'm like, for real? Story, okay, like it's helpful. It's a very like, creative abrasion And it's been interesting navigating that when you're like in a partnership with someone
Alissa: Yeah, for sure.
Jess: [00:14:30] Okay, I want to talk more about Getting inside the book a little bit From the very beginning, like your introduction, there's a quote in there that's super powerful.
You said, As my clients question their beliefs about food and dieting and weight, they started to question all sorts of other thoughts, feelings, and beliefs. So this seems to me like we're talking like diet culture, anti fatness beliefs, someone feeling poorly about their body, right? So this relationship with self, this body image it doesn't all exist.
In a vacuum, like it's not all on its own. Can you speak a little bit [00:15:00] more on this?
Alissa: Yeah, absolutely. Because I think this was a huge kind of realization for me and like puzzle pieces fitting together for me because when I first, I mentioned, you know, finding kind of intuitive eating partway into my career and I'm like, Oh, I'm going to help people. Have a better relationship with food, like, be able to eat what they want and be connected to body cues and not, like, feel guilty.
Like, that's what I thought the work was going to be. Which, yes, that was part of the outcome that my clients [00:15:30] ended up seeing, but I had some really amazing people that I'm just, like, so grateful for, like, trusted me, especially in my, like, early days of, you know, kind of operating from, through this lens, who really showed me how, well, A, that, you know, really realizing that someone's relationship with food and their behaviors with food and their, how they feel about their body, wasn't actually the problem to be fixed, right?
Like, so much of, like, body image research, for example, which of course, [00:16:00] historically was done by white men is about like, well, how can you fix how you feel about your body? Right? Like, that's what we need to do. And that's what, you know, going into this work, was what I was thinking, like, very at the level of the individual.
And what I realized pretty quickly, was that what's presenting as this, like, individual problem with food, or with body, or body image, is A, much more deeply rooted, and B, has like, very little to do, you know, certainly yes, there are things on the individual level and work and [00:16:30] unpacking we can do, and so much of it is this response to experiences we've had and this conditioning we've had culturally.
And so that to me was like, this huge aha moment, of which again, There are people who have been doing this work for decades and decades but it, for me, it was like, Oh, again, as someone with immense privilege who really hadn't dealt with a lot of like discrimination or stigma or bias it to me felt like this big aha [00:17:00] moment because I had never really experienced it.
And so it was sort of like the blinders coming off and being like, Oh, wait, this idea of diet culture. It's not just like diet culture like it didn't just like come out of nowhere it's actually there are these like deeper cultural roots You know the work of dr. Sabrina strings who wrote fearing the black body was like so Invaluable to me and you know in that book just heavily researched, which I love But she talks a lot about how these beliefs about body [00:17:30] size and what bodies were quote unquote good and what ones were not good were specifically created to keep black people oppressed and not in their power.
And so I think for me, like, learning from people like Dr. Strings and these other, like, activists and educators and people in the fat acceptance space, Really, like, all the pieces came together, and then I was seeing this with my clients, too, that, like, we were starting this work about, like, they're coming to me, like, oh, I'm just tired of dieting, I'm tired of, like, you know, I really want to, [00:18:00] like, work on my relationship to food and my body.
And so, kind of realizing, like, yes, there's a lot of work we can do as individuals, but then there's also this, like, huge societal piece that a lot of the individual work is, like, putting those pieces together, taking the blame off ourselves and, like, putting it back on these cultural standards and I think the other piece is, Two that really stood out to me from the get go was like, like I said before, I thought it was like, oh, people are going to like eat a burger and like feel [00:18:30] okay about it and move on with their life, which again is what happens with my clients versus like continuing to think about it or feel guilty or feel ashamed or questioning themselves, second guessing.
But the other things I was seeing were like, I mean, I can, this is like years ago and I can distinctly remember some of these people of like, A client of mine who she was in like her 50s or 60s, and had been dieting most of her life, and she one day was like, I have so much more space in my life now that, like, this brain space isn't [00:19:00] being taken up, and she's like, What can I do with it?
And she was like, so we were like, this is exciting. What can you do with it? And so it's like, right at that stage of her life, like finding new hobbies and finding like, like making more connections. I had another client who again, was really coming in to work with me from the food perspective, which that shifted.
But then also you know, I remember this like huge win was one day she came in and she was like, I had sex with my partner with my shirt off and the lights on. She's like, I haven't done that in [00:19:30] decades. And I was just like, I mean, I get chills like thinking about that now. So these were these like, like her partnership was improving.
You know, there was also someone who, whose partner like loved to cook. And that was how he showed love. And she, because of like the dieting and her worries about weight, like. Usually said no. And she's like, Oh my gosh, I can say yes now. And like, he loves that. And I can like accept his love that way. And so it was just like all this really cool things that I was seeing that we were starting with.
[00:20:00] someone's relationship to food, but sort of, as I realized, when you start to trust yourself more around food, you then trust yourself in all these other areas of your life too, which was just so cool to see.
Jess: It's not just about the food. I mean, and that's something too, within the growth and, Yeah, within the growth of Sturdy Girl is we started out with this message of I want to talk about healthy body image is where we started and talking about the concept of physical and mental resilience.
And over time, as we jumped into [00:20:30] conversations, as I was jumping into more of the body image research and learning where a lot of the origins of body positivity came from, too. So similar to kind of how your research changed, it was realizing like, oh, Body image and the way we feel about our bodies is not actually about our bodies.
The food we eat, it's not actually about just the food we eat. It's unpacking all the layers underneath to realize, okay, how did I get here to have these emotions around food or these reactions? How did I get here to [00:21:00] feel? To feel that I needed to make my body look this certain way. When we look at society, when we look at the media, when we look at the history of how we even got to this place of women should be this size.
how did we get here? And that understanding is just, it's really profound because I think about Your space as a dietitian the conversations, people do come to you and they're like, help me with my relationship with food. And you're like, all right, sit down and buckle up because uh, it's way more than just the [00:21:30] food.
We're going to change your life.
Alissa: and you know, for me, it's been such a rewarding journey and experience, like certainly as a clinician, but also as just a human, because like the work that my clients do is like so much more expansive than what I was trained in. Right. Like so much, I would have been out of this field. Right.
Yeah. Ages ago, if I was doing sort of the traditional path of a dietitian in the nutrition space, and this work is so expansive and [00:22:00] it's so life changing. I mean, even just, the like food piece, like the shifting relationship of food piece is incredibly life changing for so many people, but it like just always goes beyond that.
And so it's just been, yeah, really amazing to, to be able to witness and to, to work with people who put their trust in me to like lead them on this journey that is not linear and requires like huge leaps of faith and requires. As I'm sure you talk about on the podcast, like, just swimming [00:22:30] upstream from the mainstream cultural beliefs around bodies and weight and health and nutrition.
But yeah, the outcomes and the life changes are just so profound. And, you know, I think, too, like, so much of this, to me, comes back to sort of the, the liberatory part of this work right, when we're like dieting, trying to make our bodies smaller, like we're like actually making ourselves smaller, like our personalities and our world and all these things, right?
And that's usually [00:23:00] not conscious. Um, And usually for most people that's been going on since they were young. And so it's hard to even like see that. And the, Liberation that can come and like freedom that can come from like stepping outside of that box of like, this is what I have to do. Like I said, that client was like, and I've heard this from so many people, I have so much time now, what do I do with it?
And just being able to see people like step into their power more. Because again, going back to what I mentioned about the roots of all of this and, yeah, if [00:23:30] we're dieting, trying to make our bodies smaller, spending a ton of like time and money and energy on doing that, what do we not have time to do?
Right? We don't have time to like, push back against those in power. We don't have time to do like so many other things which is the point and how, diet culture really is a, Result of these systems of oppression.
Jess: 100%. There is a book called the body liberation project. Chrissy King
Alissa: Yes.
Jess: about this as well. It's fantastic. I was just thinking just [00:24:00] the, the piece of, oh my god, I have so much more time and energy and space in my brain. That is one of the main missions of Sturdy Girl, is helping to shift the focus away from body and appearance and onto living.
The big red life you want like that is main message because it's true when you start I'm gonna say unlearning A lot of these things, you recognize how much energy you were giving to your food choices, to how you acted, to how you dress to your body [00:24:30] size, to how people were perceiving your body, how it, you know, there's so many pieces of that, that suddenly, as you start doing, when I say doing the work in a very broad sense, because there's so many focuses as we could talk about, but When you start actually noticing those things and recognize like, Oh my gosh, I have so much more capacity for other things.
Yeah. Picking up hobbies, having sex with the lights on. Like those are huge. that's amazing.
Alissa: yeah, I think too. I'm thinking about as well. This client [00:25:00] who I remember her saying to me like some version of like, as she was building trust in herself to make these food decisions She was like, then it started to shift into like, well, yeah, how am I spending my time?
What do I enjoy doing? Right? Because we start with food of like, okay, do you enjoy what you're eating? Like, how does this feel in your body? Right? Making that connection. And then she was like, yeah, it started to shift to like how I was spending my time. And then, you know, started noticing like all these other shoulds about like, oh, well you like [00:25:30] should.
get married, or you should have a kid. And now she's like, I don't have to if I don't want to. Like I can make a decision about that. And so sort of like her zooming out and like all these things that she thought were like, this is like the path. This is what you have to do. This is what's necessary. She was like, Oh wait, no, if I want to, absolutely.
But I don't have to and I can like make a choice and and how powerful is that right this like being able to like really because I think a lot of us would be like, yeah, I can make a choice right this like [00:26:00] intellectual part of ourselves, but then to be able to like embody that. And really sort of, you know, it's impossible to like fully extricate ourselves and our decisions from reconditioning and this culture we live in and just that questioning of like, yeah, how do I feel about this is so powerful.
Jess: Just even giving yourself the ability to ask, what do I want? What do I actually want? I feel like that's one of those things that again, the conditioning piece that we like naturally go, Oh, I don't know what I want. like with food, [00:26:30] the very base of that, because we've had all these shoulds for how we should eat or shouldn't eat or all of those pieces, and then suddenly to be like, well, what do I want?
Or talking about, you know, I work with clients on like running and lifting goals. So again, they come to me for strength training or for running a marathon. And then we get to the, the underlayer of, it's not actually just about the training. There's so many other pieces that go into that. And so it's like, well, what do you actually want?
And they're like, no one's ever asked me that before. I don't know.
Alissa: [00:27:00] And I think the I don't know can be really powerful. It can also feel scary of like, well, I don't know, but that is an opening into starting to explore that more because, yeah, you know, we're often just like on this path for whatever reason, like the cultural conditioning, the like family of origin and things we learned there, like, just the way so much of our culture functions of like you do this and then you do this and then you do this and taking that pause being like, wait, what is it that I want?
And like, I don't know is [00:27:30] a place we can start.
Jess: I've found that for some people it's easier to start with what don't I want. And then starting there, like, okay, it's not this, it's not this, it's not this.
Alissa: Yeah, and I think the like, I don't know, that can be really scary. That can be really scary because we live in this culture that in a lot of ways like rewards people who like know what they want, quote unquote. And so the, I don't know, can be a really scary thing.
And I think that's a piece. For a lot of people, you know, we end up leaning into like, well, let me just follow this path, then at [00:28:00] least I feel like I have some control. When in reality, we have very little control over a lot of things in our life, but that can be a very scary thing to come to terms with and to accept.
And so the, I don't know, can be really scary. And, and this is what I say to all my clients, like it does take a leap of faith to be like, I don't know. And I need to like experiment and just see. And like the freedom that is on the other side of that is just so amazing.
Jess: It's learning to sit in the discomfort of not knowing and then [00:28:30] figuring out what to do with it. And that's, we don't like being uncomfortable. So that's, yeah, that's a big part of it. Okay. we've managed to segue so much in this. I love it so much. I want to come back to talking about your book for a few more minutes.
Just, you had broken the book down. I was like, I just, I want the audience to get a little taste of all of this so that they feel the need to go check out your book because I enjoyed it so much and gained so much from it. So, Broad scope, your book is broken down into four parts. So you have fixing, allowing, feeling, and [00:29:00] growing.
And I know kind of our conversation has naturally touched on little bits in here, but can you walk me through these parts? I'm just, like envisioning this as someone listening to be like, Oh my gosh, this sounds like exactly what I need. Just by hearing about it.
Alissa: Yeah. Yeah. Happy to walk you through. And I'll also say that, you know, when I was thinking about the structure of this book and what I wanted to cover really, I wanted it to be really practical. So I wanted to be educational, but then also practical of, it is a book, but there's also a lot of reflection prompts and like workbook type exercises.
So [00:29:30] that people can not just like intellectually understand, but start to embody this and practice this because that's what it is. It's, there's, you know, most of my clients come to me and they're like, okay, intellectually, this makes so much sense and it really seems to align. But like, how the heck do I do it?
How do I get from where I am here to like what you're talking about?
Jess: the knowledge action gap, right? Like, yeah, or the binge readers like me who are like, I'm just going to binge read this and like, not do the workbook stuff when that's where the magic happens.
Alissa: yes, [00:30:00] yes. yes. yes. and I get that because I often read books that way too. And in the introduction I really say, like, I hope you can take your time with this. Like, maybe you're one of those people that likes to read the whole thing and then go back to the pieces that resonated. But really my hope was that yeah, kind of walking through, like, from, This process of going from trying to quote unquote fix yourself, which you know, most people drawn to this book are folks have been trying to quote unquote fix themselves, maybe from a variety of ways, but certainly from a way around like dieting or like food manipulation [00:30:30] to try to like change your body or change, you know, kind of things like that.
So kind of this process of going from trying to fix yourself and change yourself into like a more unapologetic eating, like being able, unapologetic, intuitive eating, to then also living that way as well. And so, starting out with fixing. So that section of the book has some educational pieces around, like, history of diet culture and, like, this zoom out lens of, like, the history of beauty [00:31:00] ideals.
I talk more about, like, weight science, why dieting and weight control measures just, like, don't seem to work. I talk more about like why weight and health aren't as closely connected or linked as we've been taught. And then I also in this section spend more time talking about like how you can explore your own history with food in your body and naming some of the many things that can affect your relationship with food in your body.
So starting to like reflect on where your food beliefs, where your body beliefs came [00:31:30] from and how they've impacted your life. And then the second part is allowing. So this is really where it's like, okay, I've started to like do some unpacking and unlearning. The allowing section is really taking some action and like stepping away.
From for a lot of folks, it's like the dieting or food restriction or food rules while building awareness of like all the ways in which they show up. Cause it's generally much more insidious than we realize it's not as simple as just like, well, I'll stop this diet that I'm on because like all that stuff [00:32:00] is still integrated in our brain.
So there's a lot on like cultivating awareness, mindfulness of our experience. And. then how to start to sit with the discomfort or the thoughts and feelings that this brings up. In allowing, I also teach a little bit more about the intuitive eating framework and about some other kind of ways that you can start to connect back to your inner wisdom.
Then the next part is feeling. So when you stop trying to fix yourself and begin to [00:32:30] allow yourself in your body to just be. Lots of thoughts and feelings tend to arise and bubble up to the surface and often for a lot of folks, like, those are ones that consciously or unconsciously Dieting have been suppressing, right?
Like as a coping mechanism. So dieting, and I talk about this in the book, how dieting is often utilized as a coping mechanism. And so in the feeling section, I really try to guide you through the process of sitting with those feelings, sitting with the discomfort, as you named, that absolutely will [00:33:00] arise in this process.
So we talk about self care and coping and community care, self care. We talk about things like body respect self compassion and also talk about how you can start redefining your relationship with your body. Like what What might that look like? If it's not this kind of like at war with my body, like, what might it look like?
What might I want it to look like? Um, And the last part is growing, which is honestly my, my favorite part of the book. And some of what we've talked about already, like in this process of unlearning and [00:33:30] unpacking, you then get to explore and learn and define this new path for yourself or these new beliefs or new truths for yourself.
And you really get to. Get to know yourself better and do more, like, self exploration and self discovery and, you know, be more connected, not just from, like, a hunger fullness cue perspective, but be more connected and, like, living in your body, more embodied. So this section has talks about embodiment practices.
It talks about practices you [00:34:00] can do. Like I have you know, a section on like really honing in on your values, which can be such amazing guideposts. I have these self discovery self connection questions that borrowed with permission from a friend of mine, Hannah Jung, about, yeah, just starting to get to know yourself and ask yourself these questions where we might not know the answer.
But really starting to be like, okay, how do I know when it's like, A fuck yes, and how do I know when it's not? Like, how does that feel in my body? So really, like, getting into our bodies. [00:34:30] And so, figuring out, instead of all these things you've been taught you're supposed to be like, or do, or look like, figuring out, like, what is it that I truly want instead?
So really moving into that, like, unapologetic living.
Jess: Amazing. All of the things like this every single one of these like when I was reading your book and I'm like underlining parts of it and I was like I kept leaning over to my husband because I read like before bed and I was like this is exactly what the mission of sturdy girl is this part two and then I'm like a couple nights later and I'm [00:35:00] like oh my gosh you talk about embodiment too and like using values to guide your actions you talk about like so many of these areas and I was like oh my god I can't wait This is so great.
no, I mean, I think that all of these areas where someone's going to start reading this book to help their relationship with food and they're going to come out of it being like, shit, I got a better relationship with myself. There's so
much more there. and you're tying to, I mean, I could spend hours just talking about this.
journey of improving our relationship with self. [00:35:30] But one other question I want to talk about in the book, and then I'd love to get like maybe your top tips for just overarching if we were going to start working on our relationship with food or self. But you talk about the very end of your book, power.
Embracing your power. And I loved how, yes, it is stepping into figuring out who the hell you are and what the hell you want Without all of the pressures of these things that have been ingrained in us. Sure. But what else? Like how how is that? Like what does Stepping into your power mean to you if you want to [00:36:00] expound on that a little bit but also in the sense of know what we talked about with a lot of the background of Why women are pushed into this box of being smaller and certain body types and those, like, how is it different than how power is traditionally thought of in society?
Alissa: and again, speaking from someone who lives in the U S in kind of most Western societies, power is like very, it's like power over another person. Like, you know, you have power, if you have power over another person or people or group of people there's this [00:36:30] great interview with Sonya Renee Taylor on Brene Brown's podcast.
And Sonia, is talking about the hierarchy of bodies and power in our culture. And she's talking about it as a ladder of like, okay, we're all trying to like climb up this ladder of, of power. But like, if you think about climbing up a ladder, to get higher, if there's other people on the ladder, you literally have to like climb over them or like push, they have to go down the ladder for you to go up.
as an aside, one of my favorite parts of the interview is uh, Renee being like, [00:37:00] well, how do we, like, help people get up the ladder? And Sonya's like, no, no, no, no, no. We knock the ladder, like, the fuck over. Like, we're, like, getting rid of the ladder. And I'm like, yes! I love Sonya Renee Taylor's work. you know, power is traditionally in our culture thought of this way, and I talk a bit in the book and this is not, my own idea, this again has been talked about for decades by different activists, but power really being this more collective thing, and like, okay, if I can [00:37:30] access my power if I can liberate myself from these different systems of oppression that are designed to keep me and other people down, what can I do with that to not just help myself, but to like, help the collective?
And so really power in this more collective way, not just liberation of like, me, the individual. Visual and me feeling better and self. But then where do I go from there? And how do we, you know, use that power to liberate the [00:38:00] collective, which will also help us to right. So it's, it's really thinking about power in a different way.
way. Because until, you know, this is something you see talked about a lot in body liberation spaces of like, until all bodies are liberated, until all people are liberated and free from these oppressive systems, none of us are ever fully free, right? Like we still have to, I might like individually have liberated myself from these systems, but I still have to exist in these systems.
And there still [00:38:30] might be things I have to do that are not values aligned because I have to exist in these systems. Like one tiny example of that is I'm thinking of a former client who worked in a corporate setting. And she was like, okay, Alyssa, like I've really done a lot of questioning around like makeup and, you know, like beauty standards and like feel much more confident without makeup.
But if I go into the office without makeup on, I'm going to be treated differently. And that's going to like, affect my like, chances at promotion. And that's not just in her head. Like there's, and I [00:39:00] talk about this a little bit in the book, there's actual research around that. That women, not men, but women who are not as quote, well groomed make less money.
I think that's also where it's like, okay, we can do all this individual work, but then how do we extrapolate this? Because we still end up having to live in these systems. So really power at like the collective.
Jess: I think that's fantastic. And especially too, for me as a straight, white, able bodied, straight sized, inherently very privileged human, this part of [00:39:30] the work, if you will, is something that the longer that I'm doing this podcast and the longer that I do my own work on body image and my relationship with myself, the more you recognize the need for the work of the collective to help others.
Like there, there is a sense of responsibility that comes from that.
and that's kind of one of those things that I, the longer that I am doing this, the more I'm like, okay, how can we get more involved? How can we shift and help and change and unrelated [00:40:00] necessarily from like this big spanse.
But I just connected with a local school to start creating some curriculum around like, Workshops for kids relationships with themselves, so I'm really excited. So, one of the counselors of a high school here in Portland we've just started the communications and all of that. I have a business mentor that has a PhD in like curriculum design and behavior change who I'm like utilizing for some of this stuff.
But that is the area that excites me the [00:40:30] most within this is like going to the younger generation and having these conversations so that there's, you know, we talked a little bit about unlearning earlier. It's a lot less unlearning if you're, you're coming into these vulnerable times, kind of like going all the way back to the beginning where we talked about, Hey, it was like middle school, high school, suddenly when we're like, Oh my God, puberty is insane.
And maybe I need to try dieting here. Let's have this conversation about our bodies and our feelings about our bodies and society and all of that. So. I'm terrified to create [00:41:00] for this group, but I'm also like, this is so much a realization of a vision that I've had for Sturdy Girl since the beginning. So it was really
Alissa: That's amazing. That's so, so cool. And sounds like such an awesome opportunity. And yeah, you know, as you were talking about that, I'm thinking about Kelly deals, who's a feminist, like business and marketing coach, something she often says cause this can feel really overwhelming. Like, okay, how do I, as an individual, like affect change?
And I think Kelly will say, she's like, we all have our place at the [00:41:30] wall. Like, we can't take down this big wall. by ourselves. We need lots and lots of people doing lots of different tasks, right? So, like, working with youth, people advocating on a policy level, like, right? We need like, what is your place at the wall?
And what are the things you can do? And I think starting in your community is, like, such, right? Because, like, I think a lot of our brains go to, like, the big picture. And it's like, yes. And how can you start in your community and with the people that you know and make an impact [00:42:00] like at that level? So I love it. That sounds like such an awesome opportunity for you.
Jess: Thank you. Yeah. I really appreciate it. Like simultaneously excited and terrified. it's so true though, what you said, we do, when we start to recognize the big picture of this, it is overwhelming because you're like, all right, I want to be involved in the community and advocacy work and this and this and this and this and that's not the point in this.
It's finding again, yeah, where you are at the wall. I like that. I haven't heard that before.
Alissa: I'm just gonna say Kelly talks to about like, yeah, we also need people like making food for the [00:42:30] people that are trying to take down the wall and like, right, like, there's all these ways that we can support the collective that can seem really small, but like, that is what is needed.
It does not have to be these big sweeping things. and I'll also add to that. there are like seasons of life when you might feel more like you have the bandwidth or capacity to do this and seasons when you don't. I think it's, again, as you spoke to, sort of, often an arc that we see [00:43:00] is someone doing this individual work and then being like, and there being a point of like, keeping it internal and not being ready to talk about it, and then getting to a point of like, okay, I'm feeling it's starting to bleed into other areas of your life.
And then into like, you know, often for not everybody, but for a lot of people, it is, okay, can I teach a class about this? Or can I integrate this into just like conversations with friends and family or whatever it is? Right. So yeah, spot at the wall when you [00:43:30] have the bandwidth and capacity because we're not always going to, like there's seasons and shifts and
Jess: It's a whole ass journey.
Alissa: for sure.
Jess: Okay, bringing this, I'm going to say full circle and thinking about just our listeners, are there any, I was going to say tips or any place that you would give advice for starting in this work when we're talking, maybe focusing like on how your book is structured, like obviously listeners, Go buy Unapologetic Eating, it is wonderful, and if you're a fan of Sturdy Girl, it is right in line with all of this [00:44:00] messaging.
But also, like, in general, for just listeners right now who probably are listening to this on like 2x speed, any maybe tips for starting that work, any like, if the audience was gonna remember one thing from this whole dang podcast besides your book What would it be?
Alissa: You know, I think a starting place is just, and I'll name this because I'm like this too, we often have this like, well, what can I do? Right? Like wanting to like take action, which can be great. And if I could say one thing, it would be. Awareness building and mindfulness and starting to just [00:44:30] pause, you know, our typical, I walk through this in a chapter in the book, like our typical kind of human brain response is like we have a thought or like we experienced something and we react to it and we don't really ever pause to like, Stop and unpack that or think about that or like respond to it rather than like our automatic reaction.
And so I think that is where I would start is starting to pause, you know, whether that's like. body cues, whether that is, you know, [00:45:00] having negative body image thoughts and then just taking a pause and being like, okay, I'm having the thought that X, Y, Z, I don't like how my body looks in this outfit or whatever it is.
And just like separating yourself a bit from that thought and then starting to be like, okay, where does this even come from? You know, starting to do a little work there. Same thing with some of the food stuff, like raising awareness of, you know, Thinking about a client of mine who had this realization, had not been, quote unquote, dieting for a long time, and was like, oh yeah, I'm not doing that anymore, but then had [00:45:30] this realization that she still had all these food rules that were then impacting her.
Like, for example, she had this, like, in her head that sandwiches were not Like she couldn't have that at lunch because that was like too many carbs. And so what would happen when she'd get to like lunchtime, she'd be ravenous. But she's like, well, I can't have a sandwich. But then ends up just like grazing on all this other stuff and like, not really fully satisfying herself.
Cause she either had like, well, it's like a sandwich or it's this like. You know, or it's like the grazing, or it's this like perfect [00:46:00] quote unquote healthy quote unquote lunch bowl or whatever. So starting to raise awareness in like all the ways in which this like insidious diet mentality, diet culture, anti fat beliefs are showing up, both within you and outside of you.
Jess: I'm nodding along and kind of chuckling over here because that is so often the conversation that I've had on this podcast is that awareness piece and paying attention. it's such a hard thing to I'm not going to say teach but talk about on the podcast because it's like I can't tell you it's not like [00:46:30] how do I get better at running or where do I start with running and you say?
Okay, start out with run walk intervals at like three minutes of running one minute of walking Whatever it might be right like there is a place to start There's a direct action you can take like you were saying like we want to take action And it's like no, it's this awkward like getting uncomfortable and slowing down.
You want me to slow down? And start paying attention Tension? Like that, that's the answer? Ew. Like that's the beginning of the work.
Alissa: yep, I know so many of my clients. And they're like, well, what can I [00:47:00] do? And I'm like, just pay attention. They're like
Jess: that sounds terrible.
Alissa: it sounds terrible. I don't want to do that. Which makes sense. Right. Because like the disconnection that so many of us have from our bodies comes from a place of like, in so many ways, and I talk about this a bit in the book too, like all the ways in which we can become disconnected from our bodies and ourselves.
It's like often a protective mechanism because yeah, it is wildly uncomfortable in this culture to be connected to our bodies a lot of the time, and it is much easier to be disconnected. But [00:47:30] if we try to do things like, well let me start these run walk intervals without having that foundation of awareness.
Then sure, you can do run walk intervals, but like, you know, just thinking of some of the stuff I work with, like, is that going to be sustainable? Is that going to be, like, what your body needs? Are you going to get injured, right? Like, without doing this, background work that's definitely not as, like, fun and sexy.
But when it comes to, really, like, sweeping long term changes, that's where we need to start.
Jess: And that's kind of, I'll say one more [00:48:00] thing and then we can get to some fun wrap up questions, but just along these awareness mindfulness, like all of that. we're discussing like getting more into woo recently. I have really leaned into the concept of mindfulness in the last couple of years, and especially with this podcast and talking about body image and that awareness piece.
Um, I think there's a lot of us that shy away from this concept of mindfulness. And one thing that I've come to understand over time and what I have, I talk a lot about it on the podcast and with clients too, is like, Mindfulness isn't you sitting down in that [00:48:30] yoga cross legged position that you're envisioning and like full on meditation.
It is literally Paying attention to the thoughts that come up and letting them go. It is being mindful of how you are Maybe triggered by certain environments or clothes or people or things or events. It's so many pieces of that It is it's coming back to you To yourself and paying attention to your body and that relationship with self.
And I think that that is exactly what you're saying. And something that I just, the more the time goes on, the more I'm like, no, no, like, don't [00:49:00] think this is woo. This is not woo at all. This is you being able to connect to yourself. it's such a big part of that work
Alissa: Yes, absolutely.
Jess: too, because.
Alissa: Yeah.
Jess: in terms of what you were saying, like, get to the point where we have more capacity and more energy to do things because we're not so focused on the appearance, the body, the food, the things, we are living our lives. The initial work takes more time and more awareness and more things and more discomfort. But when we, we come back around to, yes, it leads to more [00:49:30] capacity. It leads to being able to figure out where our place is and doing the work and all of that. I love it. Thank you for like, fully like bringing this full circle.
I love it so much.
Alissa: Absolutely.
Jess: Okay. Fun questions. If you could pick one food to eat every day for the rest of your life, what would it be?
Alissa: Something definitely related to bread. I love bread. I love carbs. And like, probably some sort of like, fresh baked bread with really good butter.
Jess: side tangent for just a second, yes. The first time I ever went [00:50:00] to France was with my husband,
Alissa: Oh, I knew you were going to say France,
because I'm thinking about France too.
Jess: yes. Well, what do you think, like, good bread and good butter? else are you gonna go? so, talking about let's say, eating journey of unlearning disordered eating and those things.
My husband and I first started dating and I was very much a quote unquote clean eater. Read, low carb, no processed food, all the things, right? Like a mask for disordered eating. I slowly unlearned all of that because my husband has the biggest sweet tooth of anyone I've ever met in my life. And when we first [00:50:30] started dating, it'd be like, I'd open the cupboard and there's like, Oreos, five kinds of sugary cereal, like, multi pints of ice cream in the freezer, those things, and you're like, my god.
So, that, setting that foundation, we go to Europe together, almost a year into dating, and he's like, Okay, every day we buy a baguette, and we get some butter, and it's in our backpack for us to snack on throughout the day, and I was like, I don't know. Carbs? Oh my god. I don't know. I don't know if I can do that.
This is really a lot. And it was like really overwhelming at first. And then by like week two and [00:51:00] a half, I'm like, heck yeah, let's go get our morning baguette. Like this is amazing. similar to your like exposure to the New York food scene, right? Like the, the repeated exposure therapy, if you will.
I'm like, I get it. I get it now. All the bread, please.
Alissa: Oh my gosh. that's, I mean, when I went to Paris, that's exactly, I was by myself one time and literally got like all the baguettes. I got an entire thing of butter and I was only there for like three or four days. My friend was like, wait, you bought like a whole thing of butter? And I'm like, oh, I'm going to eat a lot.
I'm going to eat most of
Jess: Do you know how good the [00:51:30] butter is here? Okay.
Alissa: so good.
Oh, so good. I miss France.
Jess: Between that, the croissants, the crepes, the, all the things. .
Okay what kind of fun fact do you share during icebreaker type questions?
Alissa: Oh, this is such a good question. I have a couple. One of them is that I spent a year ballroom dancing in my twenties, learning and doing all the ballroom dancing and like did a ballroom dancing competition.
Jess: That's amazing. Do you have a
favorite type of ballroom dance?
Alissa: I Loved the more, the rhythm [00:52:00] dances. I was better at the smooth dances, like the waltz and the foxtrot, but I loved the rhythm dances in part because of the music. And I loved the swing dancing because it was just like so much fun. And that's the music that I grew up listening to because my, that was like my mom's era of music.
And so swing dancing was one of my favorites.
Jess: Oh, that's so cool. I love that. Okay, what was your other fun fact? You said there were
two.
Alissa: Yeah, I mean, one of the other ones is that I worked as a barista at Dunkin Donuts for an entire summer, like, [00:52:30] 40 hours a week, the 4am to noon shift. and it was amazing. I loved it. I had to go to bed at 7pm every night but it was just like, If I wasn't doing what I'm doing now, I would be a barista again, because I also waitressed in my youth, and yeah, the barista, we'd see the same people every morning, especially at like 4am to 7am, it's all the same people come in every day.
So you get that, like, community and interaction, but without as much, I mean, anyone who's worked in service and, like, [00:53:00] waitressing, waitering, is very hard work. And, like, a lot more to remember, and, like, you're running around, and we'd obviously get busy at the coffee shop, but you have these, like, shorter interactions, and I just really loved it, and I loved working the drive thru. Oh my god, it was so much fun, wearing the headset
Jess: people are happy to see you.
Alissa: Yeah. I know you're giving them their morning coffee.
Jess: Yeah, they're like, oh, thank you. And maybe they're half awake. Usually they're half awake, but they're just like, yes, give me, give me this elixir that's going to keep me [00:53:30] awake. Oh, that's fantastic. I was a barista for like a year and a half. And I also loved it because I have worked in dentistry since I was 16. Virtually no one likes going to the dentist. It's just fact. It's okay. So when I started working part time as a barista, I was like, these people like coming to see me? Sometimes they bring me little gifts because they're so appreciative of things?
Like, yeah, I'm gonna put sprinkles on top of your drink. This is great! So much joy. Much more manageable waitressing, for sure. Okay. Aside from your [00:54:00] own book, What is the number one book that you've recommended or given as a gift?
Alissa: Oh, man. I'll go with the first one that comes to mind, which is Braiding by Robin Kimmer, I believe is her name. Are you familiar with that
book?
Jess: I am.
Alissa: Oh my gosh. I love it so much. I just this summer was like going through and reading it for the second time and again, speaking to someone who also loves science, right, like, the author is a botanist, I believe, and also [00:54:30] has ancestry in indigenous communities.
in the U. S. and so pulls together like both of those things like the science and like the indigenous ways and it's just such a beautifully written book and yeah it just really helped me to like see the world in a different way and and talk about like being present and being aware and being aware of your surroundings.
And because I'll say a close second to that is How to Do Nothing by Jenny O'Dell is another one
that I [00:55:00] recommend a lot.
Jess: do I need to check it out from the library right now?
Alissa: oh my gosh. It's so good. And it's again, similar in the sense, I think I don't even, this might be the tagline of the book, but basically it's about like, it's not really how to do nothing.
Part of it is how to do nothing, but it's like. How are we in like this attention economy that we're in? How are we mindful of what we're giving our attention to?
Jess: I just checked it out from the library. It's done. Can't wait to read. I'm like, I ask this question as much for my listeners as I do for myself. I, one of my favorites [00:55:30] guests recommended a few months ago was The Perfectionist's Guide to Losing Control.
Alissa: Well, that sounds amazing. I've not heard of
Jess: yes, fantastic. So there you go.
That was great. Okay. Last question. How do you take your coffee or tea or a morning beverage of choice?
Alissa: my favorite way is a latte. I love lattes made with whole milk. If I'm at home, I do pour over black. Assuming I have good beans, which really, I'm like, totally a coffee sob. An aside on that fun fact, which is like, a secondary fun [00:56:00] fact, I think, is that while I worked at Dunkin Donuts, I actually did not drink coffee at the time.
Jess: Hey, that was
me too!
Alissa: Yep, totally. It wasn't until, speaking of Europe, it wasn't until I went to Italy. in my 20s and I was like, oh, this is what coffee's supposed to taste like. Like it totally changed my relationship to coffee. So yeah, if I have good beans at home, I do pour over and make it black, but really a couple times a week I go to my, or a local coffee shop, I did it this morning actually, and get a [00:56:30] latte.
Jess: Fantastic. I've become a coffee snob too. Mine was senior year of college and studying for, we had six board exams, equal amounts of clinical work, didactic work, and I was like, I need something. What is the safest drug?
Alissa: There you go. Caffeine does work.
Jess: caffeine tolerance, it was like four ounces of coffee and that was all I needed.
And then I was buzzing.
Alissa: Yeah. When you haven't been drinking it, right? That's another one. Michael Pollan's book. Your mind on plants sitting, this is your mind on plants. It's [00:57:00] sitting like right next to me right now. One of the ones he talks about is caffeine. And he, as part of his research went for several months without drinking coffee and then talked about like his first cup going back and how much focus and energy, but then when you're drinking it every day, the effects of that dissipate.
So he was like, ideally, and I'm not able to do this myself, but ideally you're not having it every day. You're sort of like saving it for, which is just, it can be hard,
Jess: I have, it's too much of a ritual. [00:57:30] It's too much of
Alissa: yeah. Yes. Yeah, for me too. It is like the ritual and enjoyment
Jess: warm, warm beverage in the morning. Yeah. That's so good. Okay, Where can audiences find you and learn more?
Alissa: You can go to my website, alissarumsey. com. You can find my book wherever books are sold. It's also alissarumsey. com backslash book has links to where you can purchase it. I also have a lot of free resources on there. If you go to alissarumsey. com backslash resources, if you're looking to just learn [00:58:00] about intuitive eating.
Body image, body liberation, any of the things we talked about today, that would be a great place to start too.
Jess: Yay! Thank you so much. This was such a great conversation.
Alissa: You're welcome. Thank you for having me.
Jess: So good. Alright, friends, thanks so much for listening to another episode of Sturdy Girl. We will catch you next Friday.