47. Bouncing Forward: Redefining Motherhood and Body Image with Claire, Mental Health Counselor
In this episode of Sturdy Girl, Jess welcomes Claire, a counselor and parent educator, to discuss the challenges and joys of early parenthood. Claire shares her mission to make early parenthood enjoyable and less overwhelming through her online program, Beyond Birth. She discusses the unrealistic societal pressures of 'bounce back culture,' emphasizes the importance of postpartum support, and introduces the concept of 'bouncing forward.' Claire also shares her personal experiences with pregnancy, childbirth, and body image, highlighting the importance of community and mental health support for new parents. The conversation covers various aspects of parenting, including the support roles of partners and the impact of societal expectations. Claire encourages new parents to seek help and acknowledges the emotional and physical transformations of parenthood.
Connect with Claire HERE.
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Jess: [00:00:00] Hello friends and welcome back to another episode of Sturdy Girl. Today we have Claire on to talk all things bounce back culture, parenting, all the things. I'm really excited. I'm actually going to introduce her before she says hello. Claire is a counselor and parent educator who's on a mission to make early parenthood way more fun and way less shit. I think that, like, is that all the intro you need? There we go.
Claire: Yeah.
Jess: She's worked with hundreds of parents struggling in silence and blaming themselves for finding parenthood [00:00:30] hard when it is really effing hard. She feels strongly about supporting mothers to value themselves, their needs, and their time in a world that wants them to be pushed to their limits and be grateful for it.
Claire specializes in helping first time parents navigate the wild ride of the newborn days with her online program, Beyond Birth. Ooh, online curriculum? I love this. Forget the generic baby prep, she dives deep into the real stuff that actually matters, because there's only so much a cute swaddle can do for you when you're drowning in postpartum.
As a mother and recovering perfectionist, [00:01:00] which we've already talked about, amazing how that comes up, Claire knows firsthand the pressure to get it right and how tough postpartum and early parenthood can be. Her approach is inclusive as fuck, trauma informed and sprinkled with humor, because if you can't laugh through the chaos, then you Then what can you do?
Claire's the friend you wish you had when you first saw those two pink lines. Through Beyond Birth, she's building a community of parents who feel genuinely supported in the messy magic of new parenthood, because, as Claire always says, parenting is too difficult and too beautiful to do alone. Claire, [00:01:30] hello!
Claire: Hi, thank you. Wow,
Jess: so, I told you, like, we don't have kids yet. we're trying, which feels like a whole world in and of itself, but I am such an info junkie, and so I've been reading these books, like one's called Expecting Better, it's like all the things through pregnancy that, common questions, but it's written by someone who's an economist, and so it's all like data driven, and the studies and research, so it's like, okay yeah, you're gonna hear old wives tales about [00:02:00] this, but here's what's real, and then the follow up book is called Crib Sheet, and so it's everything of like, From when the baby is born and you're in the hospital to, I think, like, toddler years and beyond.
So, like, when should my child be watching a screen? When does this make sense? And so, reading your bio, I'm like, oh my gosh, yeah, you're like the parenting BFF. I love this.
Claire: And yeah, I haven't heard of either of those books, so I'll have to check them out.
Jess: I'm blanking on the author right now, but it's rad because she and her husband both are economists, so it's a [00:02:30] very, like, data driven versus, like, emotionally driven. And it's really, like, there's a lot of humor throughout it, but I like that info, so when they're like, actually, here are the studies that talk about formula feeding versus breastfeeding, and all of the BS that you hear, but here's the information.
Make your, make your informed decision.
Claire: Because I think sometimes we don't want to give people information. There's this whole culture of like, let's not tell people before they become parents, the real truth, because we don't want to scare them. There's this whole thing about we [00:03:00] don't want to scare
people.
Jess: it's magical. It's just wonderful.
Claire: yeah, and then the baby comes along and we're like, okay, you're never going to sleep again.
And they're like, what? And I think there needs to be more conversation where we are just real with people and we say, yep, it's hard, but it's also amazing. And it can be both. And let's tell you the truth and let's get you prepared because you can handle it.
Jess: And helping you navigate the chaos because inevitably, try as you might, there's chaos.
[00:03:30] Yeah, Okay. So you have your online course and you're a counselor. So tell me a little bit more about what you do on the day to day. What does that look like for you?
Claire: I think going back a little so when you were talking there and and talking about me being a recovering perfectionist, just to highlight where I've come from and where I am now. So when I was trying to get pregnant, I had a couple of friends who got pregnant on the first go, and that was probably a really not Great to have around me because that became my expectation that we'll just [00:04:00] try and the first month we'll be pregnant.
And we weren't. I literally took us to a fertility doctor
After one?
month and was like, why am I not pregnant? Something's wrong. We need to like test our bodies and see what's going on here. And we need to do all the things and we need to make sure we have like the healthiest sperm in the world. And you know, all the things it was unhinged.
Right. And my partner, like credit to him just went along with it because I think he just knew like I can't challenge her. I just need to like [00:04:30] lean into this crazy. And so, it ended up taking a little while longer, but it was fine. But that was the kind of mentality I had at that time where it was like, if I plan, if I do all the research, if I do, everything correctly and do my part, then anything I want to do in life will happen, right?
That's how it works. You do the right things and then you get the end result. And parenting and pregnant, starting in pregnancy is just this massive letting go of that and this huge unlearning and shedding all of the [00:05:00] control and surrender and all the things. And so, yeah I had my son, I was telling you, I fell pregnant with my son eventually in the first week of the first COVID lockdown, which was really interesting timing.
And so had my whole pregnancy in lockdown almost because I'm in Melbourne, Australia, where we had some of the longest, strictest lockdowns in the world. Which was a blessing and a curse, because actually being pregnant in lockdown was, was pretty great, because I got to work from home, I got to work from my bed, I got [00:05:30] to completely rest, and that was another lesson in surrender.
I was so exhausted when I was pregnant and sick, and I found it really hard And I think that was another thing that took me by surprise because I just thought I'll nail this.
Jess: It can't be that bad,
right?
Claire: yeah, I'm not going to be one of those people who's Being sick for months on end, like I'm going to feel great.
I'm going to keep going to the gym. I'm going to keep doing all the things I did before. And it was not like that. It really smacked me in the face. And I had to just surrender [00:06:00] to the fact that I was not in control of this process whatsoever. It was all just happening within me and I just had to let go.
And yeah, then. Becoming a mother just, you know, it changes you so, so, profoundly. And I was working in mental health already, but I wasn't specializing in parenthood. Although I was always really interested in childhood. And I'd always done a lot of work with children, but becoming a parent really shifted my focus, I guess, in my career into that space.
And [00:06:30] pretty much ever since. My son was a baby. I've, I've worked with other parents. In the counseling space. And now I also work with them on birth as well and unpacking all of the things that can surround what happens in our birth experience. So, I don't know if I've actually answered your question, but yeah, I just my focus is parents and parenthood and matricence and the huge transformation that we go through when we become parents, because I don't think it's still talked about enough or honored enough and it's definitely not supported
enough.
Jess: It's [00:07:00] just like, oh, you'll figure it out. okay. You got this. okay. So my question for you, I want to talk about so many things related to parenthood, motherhood, all of that. But when you are working on this, in the mental health space with parents, are you typically seeing couples together? Are you working more so with moms?
Like, what does that look like?
Claire: yeah, so I'm not a couples therapist, so I mostly work with mothers, and that's not necessarily by design that is mothers are the ones who are coming forward and asking for [00:07:30] that help, but I do work with couples in my postpartum prep program beyond birth which is so awesome because, yeah, I work with couples of all genders and all family kind of setups and it's really nice to be able to bring that other parent.
in, if there is one, because I'm so used to just talking to this one person, usually the mother, usually the person who's carrying all the mental load and all the responsibilities, who's having this huge transformation kind of [00:08:00] physically and emotionally. And now I get to actually Bring in their partner who's usually their main support person and bring them along in the journey too.
So not only helping them support her better, but helping them get the help that they need as well. Because often partners are just really forgotten in this space and men in particular can really struggle in those early months with a baby and not reach out for help. And there's not enough services for them.
There's not enough. that [00:08:30] specialize in what they go through. So it's been really nice this year to actually work with more partners and more men and just, bring them in a lot along this
journey because they go through a huge transformation too.
Jess: Yeah, I was gonna say, that's fantastic, and that's kind of why I asked how you work with, like, working mainly with moms, but having that postpartum prep and bringing in the other half of that couple, having that person who's also the support, because navigating that is hard and complicated and there's so much to that. So if you're [00:09:00] working with just the moms, other side of that, the other half of their partnership, they're coming home and they're saying, okay, here's the things we talked through. Here's what you need to be doing to help me or something like that, right? And so when you can have that, both of them together, right?
Claire: For sure. And one of the reasons I even started the program in the first place was because I saw there were other programs out there to help people prepare for this time of life, but almost all of them, in fact, I couldn't find any that were marketed towards couples. They were all aimed at mothers. And I just [00:09:30] thought, aren't we doing enough?
we're doing so much as mothers already, and we're expected to take on the load of all of this preparation and all of this learning as well. And I think it's about time that we called partners. In, and we called men in particular to a high standard in parenting, just like we hold women to, and we get them involved because actually what I've found is that they want to be involved and they want to support their partners, but they just don't know how,
and not enough people are creating space for them to do that.
So
Jess: That's really cool. And yeah, it's usually the like, not knowing. What [00:10:00] to do or how to support and a lot of times like the new moms like I don't know either We're not sleeping. We're in this crazy zombie haze. Like I don't know what to tell you
Claire: Yeah, there's this kind of misconception that motherhood comes naturally and actually it's a learned skill and we are just figuring it out as we go and getting to know our babies as we go. And it's the same for fathers. And so, I totally agree. we need to do it that way.
Jess: and I mean, a lot of that is like that like f around and find out mentality I mean, I feel like in [00:10:30] just like I had mentioned before we hit record We have this great little community on the street. We live on there's five other families that have kiddos and to be tangentially part of them raising these littles because they're all under the age of five, just about the time that you are getting used to the phase that these kids are in, they change. Just about the time you're getting used to, oh, little one just learned to crawl, just kidding, oh, they can walk now, oh, just kidding, now they can run, oh, just kidding, they know how to open their baby gate now, like, you go through these phases [00:11:00] are like, Oh, this is their sleeping rhythm. Oh, just kidding.
We're in sleep regression. Like having that where you just it's semi controlled chaos and then learning to navigate. So I think that's really cool. I think where I want to focus is talking about moms. So, maybe there's another conversation to be had about dads and all the support for the other half.
But, leaning into this conversation about body image, about so much stuff that gets jumbled in that phase of life. I think about how revered pregnant bodies are, how [00:11:30] often like strangers want to come up and like touch a pregnant belly, and all of that. And then the second that you have your kid, and it's all about the baby, it's no longer about you as the parent, as the mom, now it's how are you gonna get your body back?
How are you gonna bounce back? how are you gonna get your body back and return to what you were doing before? again, not a parent, have seen friends go through this, and the pressures that are put on them are the kinds of messages that are put out around that. Like, can we talk about bounce back culture, and how that relates to body image, and all of the things, like, I want to set the [00:12:00] stage for you.
Claire: Yeah, for sure. Like, I've had to do a lot research and now and again I'll, I'll search on social media. I'll just search the word postpartum because I'm looking for something for whatever I'm working with, with and oh, whenever you search that word, Most of the results are here's the workout you can do to lose the baby weight.
Here's what I did at home. And, and, you know, I now have a better body than I had before my baby was born. And it's all workouts,
it's weight loss, it's diets, it's all the [00:12:30] things.
And.
Jess: it's all about the, how do you change your physical, appearance to what You were before. Never mind all the things your body and brain have been through to get to where you are right now. You just grew a human inside you.
Claire: and the message is also do it fast.
Don't hang around. Like, get onto it now. You can start working out like as soon as you're cleared by the doctor, go do it. And there's no honoring the fact that you're probably still not sleeping. You're probably, you know, still trying to figure [00:13:00] out how to care for a baby, how to feed a baby.
All the things, including your, yeah, your identity, your hormones, it's everything. And the fact that it took you nine full months to grow that baby, or babies, and, you can't just snap back into a different way of being immediately, like you need time. And our culture isn't very good at giving us time.
Everything is about productivity, hustle culture, like fast, fast, fast.
Jess: Instant gratification.
Claire: Yeah, exactly. And [00:13:30] postpartum is just a time that really requires slowness, and stillness, and connection, and bonding, and all of those things. It's just shifting into this space that is the absolute opposite of what our culture is. Yeah, there's just not enough space for it. So bounce back culture is huge for mothers and women and It starts like what we were talking about earlier. It starts even before you have your baby So the body image stuff really kicks in I think as soon as you even [00:14:00] start to think about trying to conceive So you start to be really focused on maybe not what your body looks like at that point but What can my body do?
Can I get pregnant? Am I having fertility problems? sex becomes different because it doesn't become about just pleasure anymore. You've gone your whole life probably trying to avoid getting pregnant and now you suddenly have to switch into like, Let's actually try and do this and then that kind of changes the dynamic sexually as well.
And so, yeah, there's just so many layers to it. And I [00:14:30] think right from the get go, we're not supported enough in our feelings around that. So if we are struggling with fertility, if we do have losses if our hormones and things start to become a problem, then there's this secrecy around it, there's shame around it, there's you've got to hide it, you've got to kind of grieve privately, you still have to go to work, you still have to do all the things, and yeah, there's just not enough space to really Tune into your body during that time, I don't think, and your body can really quickly [00:15:00] start to become the enemy if it doesn't do what you're hoping it would do.
So that's a whole, like, tangled mess. And then, like what you said in pregnancy, there's, all these expectations. In so many ways, like even what you should look like, what shape your belly should be like, there's a perfect kind of pregnant belly that's like round and you know, but not too big, but not too small, because then you don't look pregnant enough, like so many clients come to me in pregnancy and say, Oh, you know, people keep saying, you're not very big, your [00:15:30] baby must be really small, or you're Huge!
Like, are you sure you're not expecting twins? And you just can't even get that right. Like, if your belly doesn't look exactly as someone expects it to, then it's somehow wrong or it can be commented on. And yeah, they touch you. There's even this thing where you just suddenly become really visible in public that you might not be comfortable with or used to.
Like, you walk down the street and people immediately notice you because you're pregnant and people feel that they can comment on that. And sometimes that can [00:16:00] be wonderful, don't get me wrong, I actually quite enjoyed some of that when I was pregnant, but there also was commentary that was really unwelcome and unhelpful and yeah, it just suddenly becomes, your body kind of becomes public property a little bit, which is really weird and can be triggering for a
lot of, a lot of women.
Jess: there's so much resonance here of just that like public property when you're going through pregnancy and that hyper visibility is, it's wild. Like there are good things, like you said you enjoyed it, but a lot of times it's the awkward when like perfect [00:16:30] strangers want to comment about the size of your belly or ask you all kinds of weird and invasive questions or touch you and you're like, how about not.
Claire: I remember like two or three times walking down the street pregnant and someone feeling the need to like give me a lecture on, on what I was doing. I remember one weird time where I was like walking down the street, eating a granola bar because I felt sick and it helped me to like keep the nausea away.
And this, elderly man, started shouting at me in the middle of the street, You shouldn't be walking and eating because [00:17:00] if you choke, or if you are not concentrating, and you trip and fall, you could harm your baby. And it was like, okay, that was weird. And I kind of just put it down to, okay, maybe that, that's just kind of a weird guy.
But then things like that happened a few more times where people were like, Stop texting and walking, you're gonna trip and harm your baby and, and things like that. So, yeah, it's just this complete entitlement that people feel to tell you how you should live because you're growing a baby and, and obviously your body gives that away, like, you can't hide the fact [00:17:30] that you're pregnant towards the end anyway.
So people can see it, people feel the
need to comment on it, and it's just a
whole weird thing.
Jess: I think it's interesting too, kind of what you were saying where it's like, even just like our body image shifting, even when we decide to start trying to start a family. Because then the conversation, like you said, if it's fertility issues or, I love this just in the context of like, when we talk about body image a lot, in general, we talk about focusing on the functionality piece of our bodies versus our appearance.
So when you're like, but when we talk about, trying [00:18:00] to conceive, it's talking about like, when we get so hyper focused on the functionality of like, can I get pregnant or not? What's wrong with me?
Then I thought about this too of like, then suddenly when you're deciding it's time, it's also like, am I eating well to support getting pregnant or like during pregnancy, am I eating well to support this pregnancy?
Am I doing this right type of exercise? Am I sleeping enough? I've stopped drinking alcohol. It's not going to make me more likely to conceive. I've decreased my caffeine consumption. I've, you know, and you go through this list of things that then kind of come back into that relationship with [00:18:30] ourselves too, where you're like, Okay, everything's like in service to the baby or the potential for one.
Claire: Absolutely. Yeah, it's a huge pressure. Even, you're told, you know, don't be stressed, don't be anxious, because baby's mental health begins at conception, and if you're stressed, you're going to birth this child who's anxious. And then, of course, someone telling you not to be anxious. Just does the opposite.
there can be just so much like self blame and self pressure that comes at that time, I think, which is really [00:19:00] unhelpful. And it just continues through birth. Obviously, birth is a whole thing on its own. And then, you beyond, you know, you, if you want to breastfeed, for example, and that's a challenge.
The self blame and the shame just amps up even more. And the feeling that your body has failed you. When really it's usually the systems around us that have failed us, not our bodies, we're just not supported enough. Breastfeeding is another thing that there's a myth that it's natural and therefore it's easy.
And it's not, it's a skill that you need [00:19:30] to learn. And usually like, In the past, we would have been taught that skill through other people breastfeeding around us. And because we've lost that sense of community in that village, we're trying to do it in isolation. And, you know, as women, we're really good at blaming ourselves for things that aren't our fault.
So when it doesn't work out, we go straight to, My body's defective, I couldn't do this. Rather than, culture doesn't support mothers.
Jess: absolutely. It's like, oh, I've failed. Or there's some people that just can't support [00:20:00] breastfeeding for one reason or another. And so then they're supplementing with formula. And then there is that shame and the self blame and all of that. that's hard. I think too, in the realm of breastfeeding as well is like, There is a hesitance from some moms to maybe return to, their pre pregnancy exercising.
So let's say we do, I mean, we talked about like, oh, the bounce back culture, like, get back to exercise as soon as you're cleared. But I think about like, I love to run and lift and all of those things, and returning to that, there is a hesitance to [00:20:30] work out because then you're potentially jeopardizing like, milk supply, and who are you to be selfish and want to move and exercise your body if that's going to jeopardize how you're feeding your baby, and then finding that like, happy medium in that too.
Claire: absolutely. And, for me personally, I was really, really fit and strong at the point where I conceived my son. Mm hmm. And Aside from the first few months of sickness, I then did keep lifting weights throughout pregnancy and felt really good. And again, had this expectation like, [00:21:00] okay, once I'm postpartum, I can get back to that.
And I was amazed at how long it took my body to feel capable and, and ready for that kind of exercise again. And honestly, it took until my son was about two years old before I could start regularly lifting weights and feeling good in that again. Even just getting up off the floor was difficult for I'd say like the first nine months of his life.
And that was not something that I expected to experience, but that is so common. our internal organs have [00:21:30] moved all around our, our muscles have separated. Everything is shifted. Our ligaments are looser. There's so much that needs to come back together. And again, it just can't be rushed. Yeah, and so I think bounce back culture also, on a really physical level forces us to do things that our body isn't ready to do.
And I don't know what it's like in the US, but I assume it's similar to here where, you know, women aren't given automatically pelvic health. support after they give birth either. So, you know, there's all sorts of things that go on [00:22:00] with our pelvic organs, where going out for a run or something can actually be harmful because we might have a prolapse that we don't know that we have, or there's some healing that hasn't happened yet where running is going to really exacerbate whatever injury is there.
So yeah, it just, I guess, bounce back, bounce back, get back into fitness. All of those messages, they just. Again, just don't give us the time, don't give us the space, don't allow us to go and explore what's actually going on uniquely in our bodies. Some people will be ready to [00:22:30] go for a run a few weeks after they give birth and they'll feel fantastic and other people it might take two years and both of those things are normal but one is definitely viewed as superior to the other and as a personal if it does hmm.
Jess: bounce back culture is bullshit. We want to push back on it. you had mentioned something called bouncing forward as a reframe for new moms. So tell me more about this because we very well established how little time there [00:23:00] is and how much our culture pushes for moms to return to their former bodies and their former activity levels and less of a compassionate understanding.
so tell me more.
Claire: Yeah. I just really love to reframe this for people because I think once you transform through parenthood, there's no going back and that's how it's supposed to be, right? It's this really transformative experience. So there's, there's a process called matrescence that we go through as women, which is similar to adolescence [00:23:30] in the, in the teen years where our bodies and our brains go through transformation.
Enormous shifts that can be, you know, you can see it on a brain scan, the difference in the brain of someone who has just become a mother. And postpartum and early parenthood. It radically transforms you. And so I don't think the goal should ever be to go back to who you were before, because how can you, you know, you've just been through this really profound experience.
You're responsible for this little human that you've created. And of [00:24:00] course, you're supposed to grow from that. Yeah, I think the goal is wrong. The goal should be to, I like to call it either bouncing forward or growing forward rather than looking back. it's like this rebirth that happens.
You get stronger, you get more in tune with your instincts, you find your power. I find a lot of women talk about that, that they find this inner confidence and strength that they didn't have before. Because they need to advocate for this little person that can't advocate for themselves. [00:24:30] So, I think that should be celebrated.
It's just an amazing process that you go through. You know, lots of your childhood stuff comes up. Lots of things that you think you've worked through come back to the surface. There's so much growing and learning and yes, strengthening that goes on and I just think we need to celebrate it. We need to support it.
We don't need to look back, we need to look forward, and we need to go, wow, look what this woman has done, you know? She has just done this amazing thing, she has grown and birthed a whole human, she's [00:25:00] now looking after this human and growing as a person herself, like, Let's just put her on a pedestal, because what she's doing is amazing.
Yeah, and so I think when the focus is all on our bodies, and rather than this identity shift, we're just looking in the wrong place, and it's this weird, like, I think it's just so tied in with patriarchal stuff, where we just, we just dismiss. Really profound things that women go through and just want to put them back in a box, or we just, we don't want to see them grow and strengthen and [00:25:30] find their voice.
We want them to kind of sit down and shut up. And I think I had something in my bio around, you know, we want to, we want to push mothers to their limits and then then be grateful for it. that's the culture we're in. And it's so wrong. So yeah, I like to just really, when I do counselling with parents, I like to really honour that matressence process that they are going through and just really focus on the growth and the
growing forward and not the, not the looking back.
Jess: We're not meant to go back. I mean, I think that's rad, just that [00:26:00] conversation bouncing forward as you're saying, like, you were not the person you were. You may return to interests like lifting or running or those like physical movement things, the things that you like, but you're a parent now.
You're responsible for another human.
You just went through this amazing and also insane process. You're not meant to be the same. So there's no going back. I love that. And also, I feel like we could have a whole podcast episode about just, like, patriarchal notions when it comes to women and motherhood and all the things.
Claire: Yeah.
Jess: Until we [00:26:30] connected, I hadn't thought about connecting with someone, with a counselor specifically, for anything, parenting related. I have a therapist and I've had the same therapist for many years and that's just generalized therapy. And obviously, like, as I go through, Us trying to conceive and then I'm sure through pregnancy and those things, those conversations will be, will come up, but to specialize in that is amazing.
And I, I really appreciate just the complexity of all of those pieces. Like we touched on before, when you're talking about the support of the other partner, when we're talking about working [00:27:00] through becoming this, becoming a parent and everything that goes into that, having childhood things. As soon as you said that, I'm like, huh, what childhood things are going to come up for me?
you're worried like, Okay, what didn't I work through? Or like, am I going to be questioning my parenting style and being like, Oh, is this like my parents? Is this different than my parents? Do I want it to be different than them? What does that look like?
Claire: it's nice to be able to have someone to hold your hand through it who works in this space every day because although every person's experience of it is, is unique, [00:27:30] obviously, there are so many pieces to it that are universal. But Yeah. But a huge part of my job really as a counsellor is validating for people that you are normal.
Other people feel this way too, because so much of us just carry it around secretly and feel shame and feel like we're failing and feel like we're not normal and, You know, when you see parents, you see them outside of their own home usually, and they're out with their kids and everything looks great.
And you might see the odd toddler have a [00:28:00] meltdown or something, but, but generally what you see is the good parts. And then of course, on social media, you really see the good parts
of people's lives. And so yeah, and there's so much advice on social media and so many parenting accounts now, which have their pros and cons, but There's this perception still with a lot of mothers that everyone else is finding this easy, everyone else is nailing this, and I'm the only one that's struggling. And, and that comes with the body image stuff too, like every other mom seems to be able to go to [00:28:30] the gym and They look great and they feel good about their body after birth and I just feel like I don't even know whose body this is.
And it's just about having someone that understands this is a really key specific point in someone's lifespan. And it brings up really unique stuff and really unique challenges. So
yeah, it's nice to be able to hold people through that
Jess: we are creating that safe space through it all. Absolutely. Okay, talking about body image, I want to turn this back to your personal experience, if you're open to sharing, of just [00:29:00] what was your body image experience like as a parent? and maybe some things that you have done for yourself to work through that, through pregnancy, through postpartum, through, you know, early parenthood, anything like that.
Like, I'd love to hear more from you, especially as a counselor with mental health background too, where it's like there's that knowledge and action gap where maybe you know what to do and then it's like the application. So I'm like, I want to know what, what was the application like for you?
Claire: For sure. And I always say to people, like, I'm a counselor, but I'm also a [00:29:30] human. I can tell people things and I can hold other people through their stuff, but I need to be held through my stuff too. And I have my own therapist too. So yeah, and I, I just turned 40 this year. And so, you know, I'm like an elder millennial, I guess.
Yeah, I, you know, I grew up in a time where the discussion on bodies was really toxic and that came from the wider culture and it also came from within my own home. And so I had really worked hard, I think, before I had my son to find [00:30:00] that place of body acceptance. And it was always a work in progress and there were definitely like, backslides with that.
But when I found, so I've, I've done powerlifting for a few years now. And when I found that, that was like a real game changer for me because it, it became about what can I do? How can I feel strong? How can I, you know, I found this camaraderie with the powerlifters at the gym and for once exercise became something to do.
That felt like it was really honoring my body rather than punishing it. [00:30:30] And just really enjoyed the feeling of being strong and capable. And that kind of bled into my, my mental health too. Yeah. And then during pregnancy, it was like, I don't know, I kind of wondered whether. Being pregnant and getting bigger would be hard because when you've spent your whole life being told you should be smaller, I thought, hmm, I wonder how it's going to feel to be bigger.
But actually I loved it. It was like, you know, I grew up being like, suck in your belly. And there was always a thing about [00:31:00] bellies and having the permission for a belly to just grow and get bigger and be proud of that. And to not even be able to suck it in even if you wanted to. It was really, like, liberating.
It felt great. And I felt sexy, I felt beautiful. Yeah, it was surprising to me. And then Yeah, I didn't have a good birth. I pretty much had the ultimate birth that it was on my, I do not want this list. Which ended up in a C section. And the [00:31:30] recovery from that was really hard. So there was a whole thing around that, around my body failed me.
I couldn't birth my child. I had to have him. Cut out of me essentially which I've done a lot of healing around and that was kind of what, inspired me to get into the birth debriefing space and do that work that I do with parents now too, because I went through that myself. But yeah, so now I have this scar that reminds me of that every single day when I look in the mirror and the way that my belly kind of healed around that [00:32:00] scar means.
that it looks very different to what it looked like before. And my baby was also enormous. He was like, over nine pounds. And so, I've got the stretch marks, I've got the scar, the excess skin, all the things, my belly button's a different shape, like, When I look in the mirror at my belly, it looks very, very different.
And I've had to do a lot of work around feeling grateful for that rather than ashamed of that, because obviously there's a reason and the reason is my son and I [00:32:30] wouldn't trade him for the world. But It kind of set me back a little bit, I think, in the work that I had done on myself with my own body image.
I found it really difficult to even let my husband see me without clothes on. And I've breastfed my son for a long time too, and so there's been changes there as well. And so, yeah, it's been a long journey for me, and I don't think I'm quite at the place of body acceptance that I was before I had my son, but it certainly forced me to confront those [00:33:00] little pieces, I guess, that hadn't been fully worked through before that I thought had been.
And yeah, to focus on that piece around feeling the gratitude for what my body did, not being so focused on, on what it looks like. Yeah, it's tough.
Jess: that is just like an absolute journey. And I was thinking to you when you were just talking about, okay, I thought I had done the work on body acceptance. Pre pregnancy, and then feeling good through pregnancy, like that is so rad because that is something that I haven't delved too deep into as far as [00:33:30] like research or just common experience with people, but I too am a millennial raised in that culture of be smaller, suck in your stomach, the root of all insecurities comes to how much your stomach sticks out, those things, And I've worked through a lot of that. from my general understanding of myself, I worked through a lot of that. And I feel like there's always more work to be done, but that body acceptance piece, has come a long ways. But it's so interesting talking through like pregnancy and feeling good and feeling sexy. And then you're like postpartum, like my body [00:34:00] felt wrecked.
My stomach looks so much different than when it was before. Okay. How do I handle this? okay, there, there's a lot to be learned here. And there's a lot of re learning how to accept myself now that my body doesn't look the way it used to And I think that's really interesting because I was just talking to a client about something called mental contrasting.
And with the thought of like, you know, when we, we set a goal, And they talk about visualization and thinking about that's one way to help work towards your goal. there are ways within body image [00:34:30] coaching that we talk about visualization for how we want to feel and like forecasting when we envision our future selves, how do they act?
how do they carry themselves? What do they wear? Well, how do the kind of things do they say to themselves? You go through those things. But part of mental contrasting is like, what do you do when things don't go the way you want them to? What do you do when obstacles come up?
So you want to achieve, like, this is your future self and this is how they look and act and do and feel. But what happens when Uncle Henry at dinner, makes a comment about how much you're eating [00:35:00] or about your body size or whatever? How do you respond? And so working through those outcomes.
immediately my brain was like, how would you even prepare yourself for like, what are you going to do when your body doesn't look like, look or feel like your own anymore? Like that is a big part of that postpartum experience is recognizing like, it's not going to be the same. And maybe it is for some people.
Maybe there is, like, once they're all healed up and it's okay. But more often than not, there's stretch marks, there may be scars, our boobs are different, there's different fat [00:35:30] distribution because of giving birth. those are all things that happen and then it's, okay, how do we handle that?
And keep moving forward with our relationship with ourselves.
Claire: And I think part of it is, we think about, okay, I'm the influence for my child here on, how they're going to view bodies as they grow. And for me personally, anyway, my son has been a big part of my journey to that, getting back to that acceptance place again, because My scar in particular, he thinks is [00:36:00] amazing.
He is like, wow, that's where I came out. And I've got pictures from when he was first like pulled out. And he just finds the whole thing like to be miraculous. And so that has been so helpful for me too, to see it through his eyes and I even have like a video in Australia, they have a protocol in the hospital where they have to bring you your after birth and show it to you.
For some reason, I think like that's something that a lot of people wanted to see in the past and didn't [00:36:30] get. and weirdly in my like drugged out state, I've decided it would be a good idea to film that. And so I have this video of the nurse kind of talking through my placenta, and here's the cord, and here's where the baby was wrapped in, and here's the other side of it, and my son the moment is in this phase where he wants to watch that video.
Every single night before he goes to sleep. That's like his bedtime routine that he's chosen. But yeah, it's just this thing where he's figuring out how babies are made and how they grow and how they come out. And he just finds the whole [00:37:00] thing like so amazing and incredible. And so yeah, to see it through his eyes and to also think about, well, how do I want to treat my body and talk about my body when he's around, because I don't want to.
To be awful to myself and that be his
blueprint on how we talk to ourselves as people.
Jess: I like that though. And just the conversation around that functionality piece too, of like the miracle of birth, but then also pulling back bigger picture of like, what is your body capable of? And we touched on that a little bit earlier in the like, [00:37:30] how it could be a negative thing of like when you can't get pregnant and you're like, why can't my body do what I want?
But in general, one really big cornerstone and helpful piece for body image is that functionality piece.
Claire: And I've done a lot of work with like, kind of loving touch and being with my body, like in the bath or in the shower and touching those parts that feel really vulnerable and feel really different. And. I guess talking to them and treating them with love and yeah, just really getting [00:38:00] curious around where have my feelings towards them come from?
Why? And there's just, it's a, it's an ongoing process. I had some complications with the way my scar healed and so, know, I spoke to my therapist and she, she had to say to me at one point, you know, it's okay to want to have that corrected. Like there's a procedure I could go and have done where they will improve the appearance of the scar and it's not vain to want that.
there's nothing shameful about wanting that, you know, you [00:38:30] can, you're allowed to think. I don't like the way that looks, I don't like the way that feels, I don't like the traumatic birth that it reminds me of, and I want to do something about that. So that's not a road I've gone down yet, but it was just a really nice moment for me in therapy to have that permission to go, it's okay to feel the negative stuff first before we do anything else, like you're
allowed to hate this and find this really hard.
Jess: Yeah, having just that simple acknowledgement of your feelings are valid.
And there's permission to [00:39:00] want to consider doing something. I think about this in context of a lot of the conversations I have on Sturdy Girl in general and then with clients is like, you are allowed to have aesthetic goals and work on your body image and have your body image be in a healthy place. They're not necessarily separate. and there's such a, like a pendulum swing with that. I feel like, like if you were in the like, body trust and body respect and like health at every size space and a lot of that rhetoric you're going to see people that are like you should absolutely [00:39:30] not want to change your body you should accept it as it is and that's all there is and never want to change it and don't ever think about diet and anything like that whereas there's the other part that's like Alright, no, can work on body image, I can work on my relationship with myself and have that be in a healthy place while also deciding that I don't like this part of me and I want to, I want to see defined shoulder muscles. And that means nothing about me beyond the fact that? I just want to have bolder shoulders, okay? Like, is that cool? We [00:40:00] cool with that? it does not mean that my body image is bad, you know? And I think that that's similar, like, with you. To have the permission to say, like, you're allowed to change that if you want to.
It's up to you. But know that's an option and you don't have to tell yourself it's wrong for feeling like you don't like that part of your body. And that's really important and really powerful for a lot of people, too.
Claire: Absolutely. And it's something I talk to new mums a lot about. Again, it's that piece around, this process can't be rushed, nothing in postpartum
can be rushed. And it includes this stuff, too.
Jess: Yeah, it does. [00:40:30] Oh my gosh. We have had such a great and diverse conversation so far. Do you have anything else you wanted to cover in relation to Bounce Back Culture, body image, maybe any, like, takeaway if you wanted the audience to remember one thing, it would be this,
Claire: I would say, like, it's easy to think about bounce back culture as a really simple topic, like, we all know there's pressure to bounce back, there's pressure to lose weight and exercise after you have a baby, but I think it goes a lot deeper than that, starts a lot sooner than that.
[00:41:00] There's so much around this time that's tied into our bodies and I think we've gotten really good at talking more about postpartum mental health. But we haven't gotten so good about talking about. the embodied part of what we go through. And I would just say, like, I want mothers and, and birthing people to know that whatever feelings, like we just said, whatever feelings they have about their bodies are valid.
They're allowed to feel them all. They're allowed to get support to feel them all. And they're also allowed to get [00:41:30] physical support. So on a really practical level, I just recommend everyone try if it's within your means to seek out a pelvic health physio. During pregnancy and then have them on hand post birth because yeah, I'm originally from Scotland and in a lot of European countries that is standard like you will be assigned a pelvic health or women's physio who will guide you through that physical recovery period and unfortunately here in Australia and I'm sure in the US we just don't have that as standard [00:42:00] and, and we need it.
yeah, I would say do that if you want to breastfeed. Same thing. You need someone to help you. You need that support. You need someone who knows all of the pitfalls and all of the hacks and everything. So, don't be afraid to reach out to a lactation consultant or someone that you trust because it doesn't mean that you're not good at this or that you're not a natural mother or that you've failed in any way.
It means actually asking for help means that you value yourself you know, your own worth Yeah, it's something [00:42:30] that we all need. And so I would just say to, yeah, anyone who's pregnant or just had a baby, like, ask for the help, get the help, because, we all need it. And unfortunately, our culture has told us that we don't, but we definitely do.
And if you're a partner or a dad, and you're supporting someone through this time of life, I would just say, Just be conscious around how this body stuff can play out, because I don't think it's something that's kind of thought about deeply enough, know, I really want partners to be able to learn to get [00:43:00] better at holding space for all the emotions that can come up around, not just mental health, not just the baby, but our bodies too.
And yeah, I think we've also got a long way to go in the professional space when we deal with women in this period of life where, you know, there are a whole lot of issues around consent and about touching and about how we talk to people and how we hold people through this, that need to get so much better.
So I think the main takeaway is if you're feeling a lot of feelings about your body, then You are normal. It's [00:43:30] common. yeah, you
can reach out for help.
Jess: Know that there's people there to support you. This is semi related. thank you for that. That like great takeaway and information. But when we're like, okay, we have a lot of long ways to go in the professional space. I'm like, yeah, how about maternity leave in the U S
please? And thank you.
Claire: I know.
I'm sorry. I read a lot of stuff on social media, obviously, around parenting and anytime there's questions. there's parental leave conversations and I see comments from U. S. moms. Yeah, my heart just sinks for you because, I mean, [00:44:00] even in Australia it is not good enough but I think growing up in a country where you have that we can really take for granted and to see women being forced to go back to work when they're still bleeding from birth is just, it's literally barbaric,
Jess: What is
maternity leave like in Australia?
Claire: It's very variable depending on where you work. Actually, when I had my son, I got zero paid leave from my employer. That has now changed that employer, thankfully. But we do [00:44:30] get government rental leave which are not enough. I think I got something like 18 weeks of minimum wage paid to me by the government.
And then my partner got like a week or two. But the norm here is that you would give birth and you would take a year off work. That's like, where I live anyway, that's what the vast majority of people will do. And then, you know, you might go back to work after that. yeah, it's certainly, unheard of to go back to work after just weeks.
I don't [00:45:00] even think many daycares would take a baby that young. Yeah. It's just not really a thing. And it's quite shocking to us when we hear mothers in the U. S. talk about these things because it's just, there are just so many things going on in the U. S. right now. I'm sure that we could talk about in
terms of your rights to your, your bodies, but
Jess: that's another episode for another day. But yes, all of that, my gosh. Okay, let's talk fun questions before we delve into this state of politics right now. What is your fun fact that you share for like icebreaker type [00:45:30] questions?
Claire: I never know what to say for this question, but I was thinking about it because I knew you would ask and. I have a few so I'm obviously Scottish so I have lived in Australia for a few years. 15 years, but I was born and raised over there. And Scotland is like the home of golf. And so my uncle was recently doing our family tree and found out that one of my like great, great grandfathers had originally coined this phrase par for the course.
Do you say that in the
US? That's par for the course. So apparently [00:46:00] that was him and yeah, so that's a little fun fact and now whenever I hear anyone say that, I get a
little kick out of it cause I'm like, Ooh, that came from my family.
Jess: That is an awesome icebreaker answer to a question. That's great.
What a cool, and also Scotland to Australia. That's just,
Claire: Yeah, a little bit of a weather
change.
Jess: yes, that's for sure. I'm like, I live in the Pacific Northwest, like, it's very similar to Scotland type weather of just rain and fog and your winters are rainy versus, [00:46:30] like, snow and that kind of thing. So,
Claire: Yeah, although I grew up with a lot of snow. And so this time of year is actually weird for me because we come into Christmas and it's hot outside, which just feels wrong. So I actually
miss at this time
of year. I like a white Christmas.
Jess: So you should be in Scotland for Christmas every year is what
you're saying.
Claire: Yeah, I should. But then I'd miss out on summer.
So
Jess: That's true. Okay. You been a powerlifter. Do you powerlift now? I know you
have in the past.
Claire: [00:47:00] Yeah, I wouldn't call what I do now powerlifting. I lift weights, but nowhere near to the level that I did before. I just, I just don't have the time really.
That's
really the big barrier. So, I think when my son starts school, I'll probably get back into it, but for now I'm just happy, like, I go to the gym, I have a really nice community there, the gym for me is one place, pretty much the only place in my life where I'm not someone's mum, I'm not talking about kids or parenting or anything because I have that at home and at [00:47:30] work and at the gym, most of the people that I'm friends with there don't have kids
and we can just talk about others. and that's really, really
nice
Jess: you get to be Claire, the human, not the parent or, you know, the, the counselor or anything. okay,
so powerlifting question. Squat, bench, or deadlift?
Claire: Deadlift. Yeah, always the deadlift. conventional. not for any like snobby reason. That's just the way my body works. I have quite long legs and I just feel more comfortable in conventional. So yeah. And my, my bench press [00:48:00] is probably my worst one. I'm pretty, pretty weak up top, but I try and I'm slowly, slowly adding weight
there,
Jess: It is the slowest moving lift of all, for sure. I'm in kind of a season of, of lifting, but not powerlifting specific. And so when I was, like, three years of powerlifting, I mean, my heaviest bench was nowhere near what my squat and deadlift ended up being.
So,
Claire: Same.
Jess: you just kind of roll with it.
But, deadlift, I love it. I've done sumo and conventional. in [00:48:30] competition and have gone back and forth depending on the phases but every PR has been
conventional.
Claire: Oh, interesting. I found like one of the cool things powerlifting gave me is because that's how I kind of got into lifting. Now, when I just go to a gym, it's not a powerlifting gym, and we're just doing other things. It has made me not afraid of heavy weight. So, yeah, it really pushed the ceiling of what is achievable for me. So I'm not scared to go and grab a heavyweight and yeah, a lot of the women at [00:49:00] my, my gym always mentioned that like, Whoa, you've, you're starting with that, but it just doesn't scare me like it does for some of them who have just, yeah, come from the little baby dumbbells that we're told are the girl weights.
Jess: You're like, do you know how much my child weighs? I gotta be able to lift more than that. that's fantastic. Okay, what is the number one book you've recommended or given as a gift?
Claire: Yeah, this is a hard question too because shamefully I feel like I never read anymore because I, again, just am so over on [00:49:30] time. yeah, lately I do have a couple of like parent books that I recommend. there's one about, that delves into a bit of body stuff actually that's really great. It's called Birth by Jessica And she's actually not a health professional. She's a journalist, but she has done a really great job of bringing together a lot of the research, a lot of the professional voices in the space, and it kind of talks you through pregnancy all the way through to postpartum, what you can expect your body to [00:50:00] do. There's mental health stuff in there. There's, yeah, just, a whole lot of, Really easy to consume, really well written information in there that I feel everyone probably needs to know, but not everyone gets told about. So, yeah, I definitely recommend that. And, other than that, I just read a lot of kids books at the moment.
My son loves to read, so we read a lot of picture books, and I'm kind of excited. He's almost four, so we're kind of getting to the stage where he can read books that are a little bit longer now, and I can hopefully start to [00:50:30] introduce him to some of my childhood faves.
Jess: Oh, I'd love that. Does he have a favorite book right now?
Claire: He's just got this really cool book, it's called The Café at the Edge of the Woods, and it's a new author, and He's like an animator and he worked on this movie called Robin Robin that's on Netflix which is really cute if you haven't seen it. It's got Gillian Anderson as one of the voices.
but he's just this incredible artist. So the illustrations in that book are just amazing. And it's a really quirky, weird little story, which my kid loves. So
Jess: [00:51:00] that's great. I love when kids pick favorites and then every night you're like, all right, we're reading this again. Oh, we're going to read it a second time tonight.
Okay, let's go.
Claire: And he kind of likes books that are a bit dark and a bit strange, so his other favourite book is about like a skeleton that has no head that's like searching for its missing head.
It's really weird and creepy and dark, but he loves it,
Jess: And you're like, let's keep cultivating these tastes.
Okay.
That's cute. My last fun question for you. How do you take your coffee or [00:51:30] tea or morning beverage of
choice?
Claire: I am on a constant quest to stop drinking coffee because I find it really impacts my sleep, even if I drink it first thing in the morning. And I never drank coffee my whole life until I was probably like in my early thirties. And then I worked in a really stressful job and I. took up coffee to help with that, and I've never been able to stop since.
Jess: like, it's
so delicious.
Claire: yeah, I know, I thought I didn't like the taste of it before, and then when I finally started drinking it, I'm like, [00:52:00] what's not to like about this? so right now I'm, I'm a soy, soy girl, and I have a, what's called a dirty chai.
Do you have that there? Yeah. So chai with espresso in it. That's my favourite at the moment.
But yeah, I'm trying to switch to just chai
without the espresso. But it's a work in progress.
Jess: good luck. I try to do that to myself and then all of a sudden I'm like, I can't, I can't live without it.
Jess: I was 25 when I started drinking coffee. It was my senior year of college and I was studying for like six board exams, plus like clinical work, plus [00:52:30] school work, and I was just like, I need something. And like a four ounce cup of coffee put me just on the moon. I was like, so ready to go on just that amount of coffee and my tolerance has definitely gone up since then.
But like, oh my gosh, it was great. And I was like, why did no one tell me about this stuff before? This is
amazing.
Claire: Yeah, I find it really helps me focus, a lot of the time my only free time is at night once my son has gone to sleep, so if I want to still be able to do something
at that time of night, then coffee is [00:53:00] how I get there,
unfortunately.
Jess: And then you're like, all right, what kind of sleep meds can I take right now?
What I
need.
Yeah.
Claire: the whole cycle.
Jess: Yeah. Okay. Where can audiences find you to learn more?
Claire: Yep. So I'm on Instagram, although I am very sporadic at posting just really not a social media person. I find it really hard to like, I find there's pressure to be on social media. Yeah, as a professional person, which I get, but I find that when I'm thinking about [00:53:30] social, I start thinking about my life in terms of content. Oh, I could film this moment and that could be content. And I, I hate that. So anyway, I am on there though. it's just my username is my name, Claire de Carlo. Rad parents, which I know is the longest name ever. you can also just find me at my website,
which is rad parents.com.au.
Jess: I love it. And that is half the reason that you applied to be a guest on Sturdy Girl is because we use the word rad all the time and that's
your business
name.
Claire: [00:54:00] yeah. Yeah. I like to just put the fun into parenting a little bit 'cause I think there's so much advice out there and everything's become a bit serious and. I kind of think, you know, we have kids because we want to have like the fun times with our kids and we want to enjoy it. Like, that's the whole point.
And I feel like we've gotten away from that a little bit sometimes. So yeah, I wanted to put, put the rad in there and, and,
find the fun in parenting and find the enjoyment in it.
Jess: That's so fantastic. All right. Well, thank you so much for being a guest on the [00:54:30] podcast. It was great conversation. I feel like it is a. Very important one, thank you for your time. Thanks for
joining
us.
Claire: so much.
Jess: Alright friends, thanks for listening to another episode of Sturdy Girl.
We will catch you next Friday.