43. Replenish and Restore: Self-Care and Body Image with Therapist, Kira Denney
oin Jess and Kira, a licensed therapist and founder of Pearl Wellness, to discuss the importance of body image, self-care, and community engagement. This episode delves into Kira's journey from Florida to D.C., her work with human trafficking victims, and her collaborative practice promoting mental health and eating disorder awareness. The episodes emphasize the significance of body image flexibility, the impact of early influences, and the need for self-awareness. They explore various strategies, such as cognitive behavioral therapy, to manage negative body image thoughts and the intentions behind body modifications. Additionally, the series highlights the role of community events, partnerships with organizations like Dancers Beyond Labels, and practical self-care activities tailored to individual needs. The conversation encourages a mindset of resilience, self-compassion, and the art of 'becoming' rather than seeking perfection.
Connect with Kira HERE.
Check out Sturdy Girl apparel HERE.
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Speaker 1: 0:09
Hello, friend, and welcome to Sturdy Girl, a podcast focused on strength, not size, where you will hear conversations around flexible body image, cultivating confidence and being a resilient human in both body and mind. Sturdy Girl is the podcast where we shift the focus away from your appearance and on to living the big, rad life you deserve. We have another wonderful interview today. I always hesitate. I'm like, how do I explain this guest I have on? Do we say amazing, wonderful, another sturdy human. I'm never going to bring a bad guest onto the podcast. I have Kira here today. She is a therapist, a founder of her own practice, and I really just want her to take it away and tell us all about who she is and what she does.
Speaker 2: 0:51
Hello, kira, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited about kind of just the conversation we're going to have wherever that leads today. So, as you mentioned, I am a licensed therapist in Florida, dc, delaware, massachusetts and Maryland, and so I can kind of talk about like why I'm licensed in all those states at some point. But that is what I do by trade. So I see specifically, though, individuals with eating disorders, body image, disordered eating and just like general mental health, and I do that in addition to also working a full-time job. So the private practice is my little baby, but it's like my pandemic baby. Essentially, I get to do it with one of my best friends who's a registered dietitian, so that's actually kind of how we came to be, to build this practice, and so we see people basically just up the East coast for those types of services.
Speaker 1: 1:37
That's so awesome, the fact that you have partnered with a dietitian so you have this well-rounded I'm just thinking about when you talk about eating disorders, disordered eating and that piece so you have your wealth of knowledge and then someone who has, like, the clinical and science background with nutrition to just make that. That's amazing.
Speaker 2: 1:57
Yeah, and we love it and you know we love when we can share a client. I think that's great. But we also recognize that we're not going to be the best fit for everyone. And so there's definitely multiple times where I'll be seeing someone who sees someone else that's a dietitian and then she'll see someone, and you know they might have an outside therapist. But when we can have those sessions together or those clients together, rather it's beautiful to kind of see that and also just bounce off ideas, because it's hard, as we all know, to get in contact with people. And you know, when you have someone in-house they can be like hey, did you see so-and-so today? Okay, what did they say? And stuff. So it's just like really nice to have that.
Speaker 1: 2:29
And when the clients have a team, more or less, it's that collaboration model. I mean, just as nerdy as it is, I was just thinking back to like when I was in dental hygiene school. We worked with the entire college of health professions College of Health Professions, and so they taught us, like what they were trying to build was a collaborative health model of being able to share that information amongst providers, and it still doesn't exist over a decade later. Right, and I'm in dental and that was everyone else's in medical side of things, and they were like, no, that doesn't necessarily exist, but it would be amazing. So a lot of the cases that we shared in school, I was like these people have comprehensive care, so much more so. But, ok, so your business is your little baby, like you called it. I love that. Tell me how it came to be. Is there a story there? Like how did you decide? Like, all right, we're doing this.
Speaker 2: 3:14
There's definitely a story there. I'm originally from Florida and my business partner is from the South Lake, mississippi, and we actually only met probably only like at this point, maybe four years ago, but prior to that, I was living in Florida, went to undergrad in Florida, went to grad school in Florida and then I was like I'm sick of Florida, I need to get out of here, and so I ended up going to DC and working with actually human trafficking victims. So that's also another area that I really enjoy working with and advocating for and just like being able to see that experience and helping individuals once they have kind of those basic needs met and that's. I could go on a tangent about that, so I'll stop there. So I worked with human trafficking victims in DC and then, for a very short period of my life, I went out to Indiana and it's a great state, just was not for me. So I moved back to the East Coast I want to say in 2020, right before the pandemic and I got this job at a treatment center that was for eating disorders and in that job I met my business partner.
Speaker 2: 4:08
Unfortunately, just due to the pandemic and financials and things like that, that company ended up dissolving. And so we were like, well, that sucks, but eating disorders, body image, general mental health is not going anywhere. People need that support. And while you know we recognize a PHP, iop is a completely different level of care, that support was still needed at an outpatient level for people. And so we were just like, wait, do you want to start a business? Should we start a business? You know, I think about that like Spider-Man meme, where there's, like you know, the three Spider-Mans are like pointing at each other and we're just like, actually, this is, this is what built the practice up. And I remember we were sitting at my kitchen table and we were just like, what should we name it? You know, we had all kinds of logistics down and we had all the okay, we need to you know, get this type of lawyer.
Speaker 2: 4:52
We need to get this account and like you know we had all that.
Speaker 2: 4:54
We didn't have a name and we were like naming different things, I remember with a name. And then later that week I remember I was like in my bathroom I love pearls, I have actually like a pearl engagement ring, like I just I love pearls. And so I was putting on my ring and I was like pearl I don't know why that just sounds so good Like pearl wellness. We wanted the word wellness in our name and all these things and I said it and I called her. I was like what do you think of Pearl? And she's like Pearl what? And I was like Pearl wellness. And she's like I love it and like you, just like collect, and it was just so beautiful.
Speaker 2: 5:29
And then we were thinking later, as we were kind of thinking of a business tagline. Essentially we were like grit and to worth, because a pearl takes so long in the sand to build in that grit. And so when we think about therapy and developing and you know, if you are having struggles with eating disorder, disordered eating, body image, that doesn't just change over a night. It takes this grit from not only you but from your team to turn into something you know, beautiful, whatever that is for you in the ways of like like a pearl, and so that's again how we got to that that name and just like building that up, and it kind of just went from there. We love it so much. We're able to do we offer virtual services, we do groups, we also have our own podcast as well. But one of the things when we build our practices, we want it to be not just direct care but a resource to the community as well, and so that's why we're able to do some of the other things that we've done with it.
Speaker 1: 6:17
That community piece is so important. I learned that more and more and I feel like, especially where you said this is your pandemic, baby, the pandemic taught us how important community really is. I love just the process of naming a business, because I changed the name of my coaching business back in 2021. And it was one of those things where I'd had original name because it had started from when I had a photography business a decade ago and that's where it kind of came from.
Speaker 1: 6:42
And I had this list on my notes app in my phone and so it was, like you said, where you're like table ring light, like you just like start throwing around nouns and different words and like the list. I saved this list because it was just so ridiculous the things that were on there. But you just you have to figure out like, no, this isn't what I want. Nope, that's not what I want. Okay, this one. And so my coaching is called Everwild Performance. There's a whole like backstory to that. But that process because you're like how am I identifying this and how can people identify with this?
Speaker 2: 7:11
I love it. I'll tell the story because we were like you know. I give that background of like an act in the wild, what a pearl does and how it develops, and You're like Ooh, why does this resonate with me?
Speaker 1: 7:28
Oh, okay, this is where it's from Exactly.
Speaker 2: 7:30
Yeah.
Speaker 1: 7:30
I like that. Do you do like community events, or how does that work?
Speaker 2: 7:34
Yeah, so we have done that in the past, like we've actually done speaking engagements in our community. We partnered, actually, with an incredible organization called Dancers Beyond Labels, which is these 16 year old 17 year old, you know, high school students that basically made this nonprofit about dancers and eating disorders and body image and you know, kind of bring an awareness to that. And I think back to what I was doing at 16, it was not developing a nonprofit, but they reached out to us once and, oh, can you kind of partner with us and so we'll do talks for them in their school. And so that's been one way that we've been able to be a community resource. We also wrote a workbook, be able to be like a resource as well and that's like a body image workbook.
Speaker 2: 8:12
And then we also have done just for other professionals. So we've done it for doctors to kind of see what these are things to look out for, like we're not asking you to work with eating disorders or work with body image. We're asking you when someone says this in front of your presence, that's kind of, oh, maybe you need a little bit more support here's, you know, a resource for you. So we love to be able to kind of just be that consultation. And yeah, we love the community. There's a lot of great organizations that we're a part of that are kind of also have that same, you know, mission to eradicate the stigma around bodies and eating and things like that.
Speaker 1: 8:43
That's an amazing mission. That's why Sturdy Girl exists. Is that shifting of our energy away from like with body image right, it's internal. It's the work on realizing that we have worth outside of just our appearance. And then, coming from that, I love that mission and that you have gotten so involved in the community, have made yourself a resource in the medical setting of you're not asking them to diagnose or treat these people, you're like, hey, no, here's an extra resource.
Speaker 1: 9:07
So if you hear these people say certain things that may seem like red flags or maybe like it might benefit for you to have more support and more conversations around this, here you go. That's wonderful. And speaking in schools that is a goal of mine with Sturdy Girl and with conversations around building self-confidence and improving body image. I would love, love to get into middle schools. It's kind of the age range that I would really love to connect with, because when kids can learn those skills earlier, there's a hell of a lot less unlearning that they have to do as adults, which is why a lot of the conversations on Sturdy Girl are about is a lot of that unlearning process.
Speaker 2: 9:43
They're such an impressionable age when they're teenagers. I remember when we were doing a series on our Instagram around a body image. Some of the stats that we pulled is as young as three. Girls were worried about their body.
Speaker 1: 9:55
Yeah, and it was something absurd, statistic of percentage of girls by the age of five that had clued into body image.
Speaker 2: 10:01
Yeah, and so in that, again going back to how we wanted to be a resource, we then did a whole series on how parents can talk to themselves, because, again, their kids are listening, and things like that, and so just like everyone can be impacted and affected by it and it's, you know, just even changing little conversations. I mean, I do it now with my friends and families and even, you know, maybe people I shouldn't, because I don't know them too well. I'll be like, oh, let's be a little kinder to ourselves. You don't have to earn that food. I have no problem interjecting. Sometimes I'm a little bit more spicier depending on if I know the person.
Speaker 1: 10:29
But definitely just kind of the subtle things in the same way that our thoughts.
Speaker 2: 10:42
You know, if we have negative thoughts that they impact so much of bombarding yourself with negative messages or telling yourself these negative messages, it's no wonder that you're going to be in this state of, oh, I don't deserve this or I shouldn't this, and you know you're in all that judgment. And so just even a couple of sentences here and there, it will eventually makes a big difference.
Speaker 1: 11:01
Okay, so just to segue from here, I want to hear your thoughts about body image as a therapist. Sturdy Girl really started from a place of body image conversations. Indirectly, sturdy Girl came from a conversation I had with a great uncle where my grandma was trying to show him videos of me powerlifting and she forced him to watch these videos. I could shove them in his face and he's looking across the table at me and he's like well, aren't you just a sturdy girl? And my reaction initially was like take offense, because you know he's actually disgusted. But instead I was like you're right, thank you.
Speaker 1: 11:33
And that extrapolated into telling the story on social media, which turned into hey guys, we should make some shirts. Which turned into selling almost 200 shirts in two weeks, which is absurd. Like I'm not an influencer by any means and that's just. It resonated with people enough. And then, seeing these shirts in the wild and having every person that I had a conversation with that I saw wearing these shirts came back to something about resilience, something about body image, something about their confidence in themselves, and I was like there's more here. My husband has a background in advertising and he spent the next six months like are we doing this? Are we making some of this Like it's worth talking about? So working with someone on body image, like there's so much conversation on social media and in the media about body positivity or loving ourselves, is that the end goal? The floor is yours. Tell me all the things.
Speaker 2: 12:22
Many people may not like me, but that's not the end goal. The end goal is being able to accept what comes and not have to submit to it or feel like you have to change or adapt yourself. Right, and so what I mean by that is we're human. We can't control every thought that comes into our mind. Right, we're gonna have negative body image thoughts. You're gonna get ready for a dinner and you're gonna be like I don't feel good in what I'm wearing. That's not bad. It's what you do with that thought that's going to matter. Right, like, let's walk through that. Right, using this dinner, this getting ready for a dinner. You're getting ready. You're having all these negative thoughts. You have a couple of options you can turn about. You can call someone there's all these different things that you can do or you can choose not to go. And when you choose not to go, you're now giving power to that negative thought, because you're allowing that thought to then dictate the rest of whatever that night was going to look like for you.
Speaker 2: 13:21
Sure, you might go and you might not be comfortable, but being able to be present and just acknowledging like, hey, this thought's here and I don't have to do anything with it. I think that's just really what it comes down to. And then we also want to think about with body image. There's really four aspects of it. There's our perceptual body image, and this is the way you see your body. Then there's the affective body image, the way you feel about it. There's the cognitive how you think about your body. And then there's also that behavioral, which is the behaviors that you engage in as a result of your body. And so when you're thinking about those four different aspects, you can kind of think about like, what kind of thought am I having right now? Is this a perceptual thought? Is this a behavioral thought? Am I thinking that I need to go to the gym to change X, y and Z? Okay, that to do that, that is not going to be sustainable for however long you think it's going to be. It won't. You're going to slowly snowball into maybe more behaviors or even some disordered eating. There's so many things with that. And so just really also identifying what type of body image thought am I having right now, or rather, what type of body image am I having? Because the thought one is the cognitive body image. I think that's just really important, and body image is a spectrum.
Speaker 2: 14:21
You're going to wake up one day feeling great. You're like I like this outfit, I like how I did my hair, I like accessories you have on. You're walking into the office, you pass some big glass mirror and you're like, oh gosh, I don't like how I look. But that's one split second does not need to determine the rest of your day, because, for all you know, you may not even think about your body again that day, and that's okay too. You don't have to always be thinking about it. It can just be like, okay, I exist, your body's your home. You know what are you doing in your home. That's what really matters. And how are you taking care of that?
Speaker 1: 14:50
I 100% agree. It's really interesting to me I get stuck on just how much body positivity is talked about and how much it's oh, it's about body love and loving yourselves and all of that love and loving yourselves and all of that. I think that for some people, that is maybe where they want to work towards, but so often they see that and they want that. But we're starting in a place of like they hate themselves, there's nothing they like about themselves, and so when you talk about the different parts of body image, there's first that even building awareness around our thoughts, Because so many people don't take the time to hear their thoughts, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1: 15:25
Right To tune into wow, I trash talk myself when I look in the mirror every time. That's insane. I never noticed that before. No wonder I feel like crap when I get dressed in the morning. Oh, every time that I go and do this thing, I have this dinner tonight and I have all this anxiety around what I'm wearing, because every time I get dressed, this is what I say to myself. When we start paying attention to those thoughts and that awareness is like such a huge skill in this whole process.
Speaker 2: 15:50
Yeah, because otherwise, going back to what you said, right, like there are some people who maybe do achieve body positivity, body acceptance, body love, finish that sentence however you want and that, again, is individualized to that person. That's what this comes down to is that it's going to look different for every single person, and it's also not only is it going to look different for every single person, it's going to look different for each person at different points of their life.
Speaker 1: 16:10
Because no matter how healthy of a relationship we have with ourselves. So, however you want to identify that level of body image, what it comes down to is our relationship with ourselves and how we relate to our body. You know it's all those pieces. We're always going to have those negative thoughts come up. Like you said, no matter how much work we've done. There's resilience that comes into play. And then there's also what we end up relating a lot to on the podcast is body image flexibility. So where you were talking about it's how you respond to those thoughts. It's the resilience piece of how do I respond in the face of these negative thoughts, these negative situations, people saying things right, the reaction to the thoughts that come up when you're like, oh shit, that person wore that outfit way better than me. What was I thinking? You know, where are we going to take that? How do we respond?
Speaker 2: 16:59
Yeah, and what do you do with that? And yeah, absolutely. I mean, it really is about like, what are the actions that you're taking? How are you letting it impact behaviors and experiences? You know, I think about so many individuals that I see when I'm working with them is, you know I'll be like, oh, how is so wrapped up in these not truthful thoughts? They're all lies, but they weren't even able to experience something. And so I love, when I work with a client, that that's something that they tell me early on in the work they were doing. And then you know, kind of throughout the year or the years, they're finally going to an event and they're like I really enjoyed it. You know they can tell me about the event and not about how they were experiencing body image in that moment, and I think that's the thing is like progress is going to look different for every single person of what that looks like too.
Speaker 1: 17:42
Absolutely. So I'm going to relate this to a personal experience, just real quick, just thinking about this continual work piece of it and events, that kind of thing. So in the last few months, because of all the things going on in my world, movement and exercise, like I am generally a person I love to run and I love to lift, they are things that bring me joy, that reinforce self-efficacy, like they are my jam, and they have taken a backseat to all the other things going on and it has been very hard to accept that. That is just the season where I'll set goals for myself of 20 minutes of movement a day. So we walk the dogs or we have a garage gym, so I'll hop out and like work with some dumbbells a little bit.
Speaker 1: 18:20
But my body composition has changed and I was recently in my sister's wedding. We wore like spaghetti strap dresses with some cleavage and half back showing, you know, and my initial thought when I got this dress was like my arms have lost all of their muscle tone, right. And you're like what am I making this mean about myself? Oh my gosh. But that spiral was like ready to start. It was there and I was like you have arms that are functional. Are we worried about how they look? Really, is this a concern? They're functional.
Speaker 1: 18:49
You are wearing this dress to support your sister's day and it was such an interesting like to catch that spiral and, like it started, it really did of like, oh, you're going to be seeing people you haven't seen in forever, your ex-boyfriend's going to be there, like all of these things. What are you going to do with that? And so fast forward to the event itself. I did not care an ounce about my body. It was like those pre-conversations to have had with myself of catching myself in that, asking what I'm making it mean, being thankful for this functionality piece and then getting dressed. That day I spent three hours on the dance floor with my friends and I got home that night and I was like I didn't think about the appearance of my arms at all.
Speaker 2: 19:27
Yeah, and I think, the more that you're able to catch, like you said, it's about that awareness of knowing okay, when is this spiral happening? I think so often when people aren't aware of that, they've already spiraled before they can even be like wait, what happened here? So I think that's beautiful, that you were able to just kind of catch that in that moment and just be like no, actually this does not matter. It's not going to matter to me in 10 years, it's not going to matter to me in 15. It's not going to matter to me on that day, like it just isn a little boost.
Speaker 1: 19:49
But also, I am very naturally pale skinned and these dresses were celery green and I looked like a Victorian sick person without it. So I was like, okay, we need a little boost, right. And that was just like that feel good piece.
Speaker 2: 20:08
And you know, that brings up a topic that I think is sometimes not discussed often is, if you do decide to wear makeup, if you decide to get a spray tan, if you decide to do any type of body modification, what's the intention behind it? Right, what is the intention? I'll be the first to admit that I would absolutely get a nose job, and it has literally nothing to do about my body. It's just like something that I think I would want to do. Right, and it's not about, oh, I don't like myself or it's. You know, it's maybe a little bit of an insecurity, but that doesn't mean I'm going to change my whole life. If I can't get one, I can't get one.
Speaker 2: 20:36
But I think it's really about what's my intentionality behind this, of doing this in the same way of going. You know, when you're talking about, like, working out being very much like a mental health thing, and for listeners it's like why are you working out? Are you dreading going? Are you hating what you're doing there? Are you timing yourself? Is it about numbers? If it's that, it's not going to be beneficial for you. It's really about like my body can do this. I like this. Also, like your body may change. It may not change, but it's about like are you actively going to the gym to change your body or is your body just naturally changing because you're just doing more movement in your life? And if you can't do a day, are you OK with that?
Speaker 1: 21:11
Yes, that's so huge. I struggled with that for a long time. Actually. It's hard. That was also such a period of time of earn your shower, no days off, never miss a Monday. That was so prevalent. I experienced massive running burnout because of that, because I spent I don't know how many years running six days a week and following these training plans. That were insane. And then you burn out because you're not doing it for the right reasons and you're not taking care of yourself and yeah, Exactly.
Speaker 2: 21:41
And you have all these different people, whether it's a provider or other people, telling you what you should be doing. Wait, what do I want to be doing? What am I doing? And the thing that goes back to you know, taking care of our body that's part of body image is taking care of it and putting it through duress and stress through intense exercise. If you're not in a sport or something like that is expected of you, and even then I think that's another conversation I can have you know you shouldn't be putting your body through that Like you should be doing things because like you want, want to, and then it's mindful to you. And again, if you have to miss a couple of days, you should be OK with that, and that's also a big thing that comes up within body image and exercise.
Speaker 1: 22:18
OK, I want to talk self-care, but first just because you touched on that a little bit, but first, for someone who's working on body image, we talked about that awareness. We talk about, I'm going to say, challenging your thoughts or a little bit what you said at the very beginning, like, when those thoughts come up, of asking yourself like, are these true? And being able to challenge, like you even changed just a couple of your thoughts. Are there any other things that you could give for people that are actively like you know what I want? To work on this in a way that is going to improve my relationship with self and let's help my body image get better.
Speaker 2: 22:50
I would say one of the biggest things is identifying what's influencing your body image. Get better. I would say one of the biggest things is identifying what's influencing your body image, right, is it the gym? Is it family members? Is it social media? What is it that you can replenish in a healthy way that is influencing some of those thoughts? And I think that's one of the first things, which, again, is that awareness and bringing that awareness. Some other, you know tips would be not being so hard on yourself if you do have a bad body image day, because again it is going to happen, but it's what you do with it.
Speaker 2: 23:13
Reaching out to a friend, I think accountability is a huge part of being able to heal from something. It's just letting someone know like, hey, I'm struggling with this. I'm not asking that you do anything and I might just text you one day or call you and say like, hey, I'm having a really bad body image day and I think, knowing that there's someone that you can reach out to and it's not just in your head, because that's the thing right, all the thoughts that you're having, they're not out loud, they're all in your head. So if you can say something out loud and it's like just give it. I don't want to say give a name to it or give a voice to it, but just get it out. Essentially, just think that you're just like screaming it, whatever it is. That's to see a therapist that specializes in body image and doing that alongside of someone that can guide you with, because there might be, you know, some things that are going to come up that are really uncomfortable, really hard, and you know you don't have to do that alone.
Speaker 2: 23:57
So I would say those are some, some tips and really just like, do have bad body image before an event is then asking yourself after the event like what did I enjoy about? It? Objectively has nothing to do with your body. Name the people that were there, write it down. Write down some of the colors that you saw while you were there. Write down the smells. You know we're thinking about grounding in the five senses. Just jot that down after an event of just like anything outside of body image, and I think that can be really helpful to give yourself a reminder. Wait, these are some things that happen that has nothing to do with my body and how I felt about it no-transcript is Well, I very much could have, because those didn't actually affect anything beyond inside my head.
Speaker 2: 25:02
You're still who you are. You're still, you know that that teacher, that lawyer, that doctor, that mother, that sister, that brother, like, you're all of those things. It does not matter what you look like or how. Your body, again, your body is your home. All of those things that you are is a part of that home.
Speaker 1: 25:16
Yep, and I like to think about it too of figuring out how to make your home a safe place to be.
Speaker 2: 25:21
I think that goes back to like what I was saying like what influence is that native body image? What do you need to kind of declutter so that you can replenish with things that are going to help you flourish? And again, it's not going to happen overnight, it's going to be a slow process, but if you can find just one thing, that's like wait, this actually does impact my body image a lot.
Speaker 1: 25:38
I think about it in terms, too, of how did your body image story get written? Because there's a lot of the past influences too of I'm a kid of the 90s, so when you think about the messages that we got from the media of what women's bodies were supposed to look like and how much that impacted it, how did your parents speak about their bodies growing up, or your siblings or the people you went to school with, right and see okay, can I identify maybe where some of my beliefs have come from as well? And then how does that come into present day? What is continuing this belief?
Speaker 1: 26:11
My mom struggled with anorexia for probably close to 20 years, and that's what I was raised around, and there was a conversation that she and I had at some point where she's like I feel like that maybe you held this against me for a long time and I said, no, it was recognizing in my adult life how much that impacted my relationship with food, how much that impacted my relationship with my body, because I am not built like my mom.
Speaker 1: 26:33
I have a very different body type, naturally, and so it was such a struggle when I would hear those things like I have to weigh myself three times a day. I can't eat that because I can't gain any more weight. And so, having those influences when you're this young, impressionable kid, there was a lot that I had to unpack from that with a therapist this was all like therapy, thank you, but there's a lot there. There's a lot there to understanding that you may not even be aware of, and I think that was for me. I didn't realize half of the beliefs that I carried with me about, about food, about my body, about how I dressed, about how I carried myself. It all came back to those influences growing up.
Speaker 2: 27:07
Yeah, because it was normalized. That's all you knew. And so, yeah, absolutely, you're going to continue that until it's like, wait until, whether you call it out. Someone calls it out, like maybe this isn't the best for you, and again it goes back to for you, like everyone is is different. Everyone's body type is different, everyone's genetic makeup is different. Everyone's just like a bill. Like everything is so different. There is not a one size fits all with anything.
Speaker 1: 27:28
This is a total aside, but do you utilize journal prompts at all with clients or with work on body image?
Speaker 2: 27:34
Yeah, I do and like one that I really like is who do you admire that has a healthy relationship with body and what's one thing that you would like to take for yourself with that? Again, because we don't want anyone to be like, oh I have to do exactly what everyone, what that person is doing that I admire. But what is one thing that you think that you could maybe try? So I like that one? I mean, I think that can be just really helpful, just free flowing and just like, kind of just sentence completion of just like my body is. I think one thing that I really like is what are current behaviors or thoughts that I have about my body that I want to change. I think that can be really helpful. It's like as a starting point, because it can be really overwhelming to be like all right.
Speaker 1: 28:09
I'm gonna work on body image. Now what?
Speaker 2: 28:10
There's so many things you can sell. It's like, okay, just identify like an unbulleted list, like three things that you just want to see different with yourself. You know that can be an emotion that you have about your body. That can be, you know, a thought that you have about your body. That can be an action. There's so many different things that you can do with that Okay.
Speaker 1: 28:26
Question how do you feel about affirmations?
Speaker 2: 28:29
I think it goes back to what is the intention of the affirmation, right? Some people it doesn't work, and I think that also goes back to that. Right, it's not a one size fits all. I have clients where I'm like, let's try some affirmations, we try it. I'm like that is not going to work for you. We need to do something more actionable, something that you, you know, really just depends. But I do think it does go back, though, to also like the more that you're more positive with yourself. Whatever that is, it doesn't have to even be in an affirmation, it can just literally just be like be kind to yourself. You can just tell yourself, give yourself permission to do like. It doesn't have to be. But I think it's just about changing that, that thought process. I think affirmations can be great, but it can't just be the only thing that that helps. You have to also have some actions around it too.
Speaker 2: 29:07
I did some, some affirmations with with a client today and I was like okay, so you wrote that I am strong. All right, what do you want to do with that? Knowing that you are strong, how can you be strong today in your recovery? And then, from there we were able to pull? Oh wait, I'm strong in the fact that I'm going to groups. I'm strong in the fact that you know I can do X, y and Z. I think it doesn't just stop at, like the affirmation, it's what can you pull from that affirmation? You just identify that you're capable, capable of what You're capable of recovery. Okay, you're capable of decreasing this behavior. You just identified you're creative. That's awesome. How can you be creative in this, in this healing journey? What does that look like? So I think it's affirmations can be helpful, but it's not a one and done, it's not a one size fits all.
Speaker 1: 29:48
I kind of smirked when I asked that. Just because, again, we talk about body positivity and how it has gotten taken over on social media and turned into something totally different from what actual body positivity research is right, and then we talk about affirmations and research on affirmations is yes, it can work, like you're saying, it's not a one size fits all, but it has to start with something that you believe, or something close to a belief, versus like you're looking in the mirror and you're telling yourself that you're fat and ugly and you hate yourself, but then you want to write this affirmation that says I'm a gorgeous, bold and confident person.
Speaker 2: 30:21
Yeah, which is very all or nothing, which is a very unhealthy thinking.
Speaker 1: 30:25
But there's so much of that of people that are like, oh, I just started like saying affirmations to myself in the mirror and I'm telling myself all of these things it has to start from a place of belief and it has to start from a place, like you said, of the application piece, and I was thinking too, and this was something that just occurred to me. I was it's been like two weeks ago. I was reading a paper on affirmations as a practice. It led me back to just thinking about as thoughts come up, letting them go and not having to identify with them, and that piece part of affirmations practice is you're trying to bring more of the thoughts that you want to have into your brain with those. So I love that actionable piece that you're talking about, because that's something I've never considered of like. Okay, if I believe that I'm strong, am I talking about? How am I saying I'm strong? What am I going to do about that? I really that's wonderful Of course.
Speaker 2: 31:13
I think it's a great exercise to do Like again, because you can say that and you know there's people are like, oh, you just say until you believe it. And it's like you can't believe something unless there's something actionable with it.
Speaker 1: 31:22
People talk about the concept of manifestation and trying to bring things into reality and you're like, yeah, but there's action, yeah.
Speaker 2: 31:30
And you may not even know that you're doing it, though, too, there is maybe a piece of that where like, yeah, manifestation, but like, what have you done? What have you changed about your mindset? You know who are you hanging out with. There are things that you've done inadvertently that has led to that intention for you, you know. Just going back to that, too, is another thing when I'm working with clients is what's the intention with your body image? Right, when we put goals, we're then setting like a deadline of this has to be done. If I don't meet this, then you get into that spiral of oh, I didn't meet it, I'm not good enough, I feel defeated. But if you can set an intention an intention is flexible you can always change that intention.
Speaker 2: 32:02
All right, so you didn't hit that thing that you wanted to hit with your body, with, you know, improving body image in three months. That was just the intention. Right, let's just bump it out three more months. That's totally fine. And I think when we take away like a resolution or a goal and I can talk again about that all day, about the difference between goals, resolution and intentions- Do you want to do like a New Year's episode in a couple of months?
Speaker 1: 32:22
Absolutely.
Speaker 2: 32:22
Oh my gosh, I love that stuff. You really set that, that tone of wait. Like I can do this. It doesn't have to be an all or nothing. I think so many people get stuck in that all or nothing and in the moment that it doesn't work, people just stop, it's okay. But what about that didn't work? What was one of the barriers? You know, maybe set something so unrealistic it wasn't going to be be set.
Speaker 1: 32:41
I think that that's really worthwhile because that also speaks to the skill of reevaluating, readjusting, pivoting, whatever you want to call that, because you're talking about setting goals versus intentions. I still talk to clients about goals, but goals from a more self-compassionate standpoint, of understanding that progress takes time, and the skill of being able to set benchmarks within those goals and smaller objectives, to check in with yourself, to say is this plan of action to reach this goal working? What can we change? What isn't going well? Do we need to pivot? Do we need to adjust the goal? And like coming back to that because it's so interesting going to the all or nothing thinking it's so easy. We set that goal, we've got to chase it until it's done, and I was that person for a very, very long time and still notice those tendencies.
Speaker 2: 33:29
Even when you can learn to appreciate that thought process, it's a hard thing to unlearn it is One of those things like when we do that and we go full force into one goal or a couple of goals, we're missing out on all the experience getting there. We're missing out on so many other things that maybe need to be addressed. You know that's part of it is that you really have to take that pause. It is okay to pause and it's okay to go back to that drawing board and be like wait you know what.
Speaker 1: 33:53
Actually, I don't even want that. That's another thing Again whose intention is it?
Speaker 2: 33:56
Is it yours or is it this expectation that you feel like you should have? And it's also the same thing, going back to what your question about body positivity, body love, and that's okay. What?
Speaker 1: 34:03
is it that you?
Speaker 2: 34:15
want, and I think that's another thing. When you're exploring body image or trying to figure out, what does that look like? Exploring like wait, what is it that I truly want? Is this a societal expectation that you feel like you should have?
Speaker 1: 34:26
Okay. So that intentionality piece is so huge. This is a conversation to be had of do I want this thing because I want it, or is it because this is what someone else said? What society has said? What do I actually want, like, what's the intention behind this? It's interesting to me how there are certain conversations that I will have on repeat, and this is one of them right now is just that piece of how do I figure out what I want. Sometimes you have to start with what you don't want and the intentionality behind oh shoot, this was not actually a goal for me. This was to prove this about myself. Well, what's another way we can work towards that?
Speaker 1: 35:05
I really enjoy running, just for all kinds of reasons and, honestly, it started out to make my body smaller, not going to lie. That was where the obsession started and then growing from there and through experiences, I started chasing marathons and a sub four hour marathon because I wanted to be seen as a good runner or a fast runner, and I ran a handful of road marathons chasing that goal. I wanted to Boston qualify. And then, right about the time of running burnout was that realization of I don't care. I actually don't care about running a sub eight minute mile for a marathon. That has no interest to me or who I want to be or my goals.
Speaker 1: 35:45
I really love trail running and putzing along and watching the trees and tripping over tree roots and having a grand time with dirt underneath my feet. That is something that I love. It is not pushing myself to see how far and fast I can go for 26.2 miles. That's not a goal and it was because I was so caught up in all the other runners that I was associating with. I was down the rabbit hole of Strava and comparison and all of those things.
Speaker 2: 36:11
I think that's beautiful to be able to find that you know, to be able to be like wait, I can just do this with friends. I can just do this because I want to and not because I'm feeling like I have, like you said to me, a certain number.
Speaker 1: 36:21
It's so interesting because, like, I'm saying this and I've got conviction and feeling behind it, but there's still that was six years ago there is still a part of my brain that I'm like, oh my God, someone listening to this might be like well then, how are you a run coach If you don't care about pace? Are you going to care about me and my pace? And it's such an interesting. It's still there, Even working through that. It's still a piece of that where I'm like, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2: 36:52
I can help people run faster. I know how I't necessarily have to be consumed by it and I think that's part of it, and the same thing with body image, right, like you, don't have to be consumed by it.
Speaker 1: 36:59
And I think that's the beautiful thing about working on body image is, with the body image flexibility piece Like I said we've had conversations on the podcast about before is you get to a point where the goal isn't to be like, oh I love my body so much, I like look in the mirror and I can tell myself how beautiful I am, or like this effervescent, big, encompassing thing. A lot of times, a healthy body image is not thinking about your body as much and not spending as much energy on well, how might this appear to other people? How do I look in this? How does this? Do I have big enough arms or legs or whatever Like, instead of spending that energy on being present, on those relationships and connections and those things that are more important.
Speaker 2: 37:37
That's how it's measured.
Speaker 1: 37:38
Agreed. Okay, my own curiosity perspective, not necessarily for the podcast. Is there any type of therapy that you have found to be most beneficial when you are coaching, when you're in sessions with clients on body image or improving their relationship with themselves? Is there any modality?
Speaker 2: 37:53
Not necessarily. It really just depends on, again, like I approach therapy, in the way I approach many things in life, which is no one size fits all. I definitely have different specialties that I can pull from, but it's really about like, what does that person need in that moment? Right, when I'm thinking about someone who has a bunch of negative body image thoughts, I'm like, okay, we can do some cognitive behavioral therapy. You really need some reframe. You need to really see how that's impacting behaviors. If I have someone that's just so distressed every time they have to get ready for whatever it is, let's do some grounding. That's going to be our dialectical behavior therapy. That's what we're going to do. You know, I have individuals that are kind of maybe been in this journey for a while and they're like, I just kind of need to reground, and so we're going to look at acceptance therapy of like values. What are the values that you have and how is your negative body image dishonoring the value that you want for yourself and that you have for yourself? And so really, it just depends on where someone's at in their journey.
Speaker 2: 38:43
I also have done like exposure therapy. Well, you know, I am a virtual practice, but I'll have my client FaceTime me. They're going to the store, we're doing a shopping exposure together. I'll have clients who will do a mere exposure assignment where they have to kind of like, look at their body, talk about it objectively. I don't typically do that with people that are new to exploring their body image because it can be a really I don't want to say triggering, but it can be a very emotional experience. It can be a very distracting experience If you're not in a place to know. Okay, if I do get kind of more dysregulated, what do I need to do? You know I do worksheets with people, journal prompts. You know there's a bunch of different modalities and different techniques and interventions, but it really is just about what someone wants and also recognizing that we might try 400 different ones, that 401 is the one that's going to work.
Speaker 1: 39:25
And sometimes I feel like, too, it's. It's trying things more than once, too, and having that conversation with clients as well. I want to be inside your brain. Your wealth of knowledge is just really impressive. I am most familiar with like ACT, with acceptance and commitment therapy as it relates to like body image research. So, anyways, okay, with body image one piece and we touched on this way back in the beginning of the conversation. We talked about like taking care of ourselves. I would really love to talk to you a little bit about self-care, because I feel like the term gets such a bad rap of bubble baths and face masks and massages and nail appointments and whatever else.
Speaker 1: 40:01
I wish listeners could see my face right now, but yes, these are the things that we're like oh yeah, yeah, that's self-care. Oh, I know, I'll take it. Yeah, sure yeah, when that's self-care oh, I know, I'll take it. Yeah, sure, yeah, when that's not really what it is. I'm saying that with my nails done for my sister's wedding and I'm I still am like oh, this was really fun.
Speaker 2: 40:19
That goes again. There's options. It doesn't just have to be a one size fits all. There's so many different things. I love talking about self-care. I actually do a self-care, continuing education for different providers on how to take care of yourself, not just as a provider, but what that actually looks like. And self-care is what replenishes you, what restores you and what makes you happy. That is what self-care is.
Speaker 2: 40:37
If you're dreading having to go do your self-care, that's not self-care. If you're doing self-care because someone told you like, hey, go get your nails done or go have a spa day, that's not self-care. Spa day is great. I just had one the other day. I loved it. But I'll be honest, I was not relaxed in that spa day because I kept thinking, oh my gosh, I'm waiting for this email to come through and that was not self-care for me.
Speaker 2: 40:55
Self-care is really about being intentional with your time and you know what. It doesn't have to be alone. If your self-care is going out with friends and having a dinner, that is self-care. You do not have to do that by yourself. I think that's what a lot of people think is that they have to be isolated. They have to be like okay, I'm taking my self-care hour. You can do that. I think that works for some people, but for some people it's not. My self-care personally is football. I absolutely love football. I love watching football. I love playing football. And I'll go on a really short tangent about how I develop my self-care.
Speaker 2: 41:25
Back in grad school, spring semester, I'm sitting at my internship and I get an email from my grad school supervisor. It's like hey, before class start, I'd love to talk to you. No one wants that email from a grad school supervisor. No one wants that. I was like, oh my gosh, like what happened? Like you know, I'm like thinking every worst case scenario because anxiety.
Speaker 2: 41:42
And I go and sit across from her and she was so intentional with the conversation. She goes how are you doing? And I was like oh fine, everything's. You know, things are great. And she's like I don't believe you. And I'm like well, that's really bold of you to say you're just my supervisor at school. And she's like you're different than than fall semester. And I'm like okay, and she's like what was different for you in the fall than than now? And I was like we're sitting. You know there had been life events that had happened, but nothing. That was like, yes, that's what it had to be, you know. And we're sitting in there and then she finally goes.
Speaker 2: 42:14
She goes, what do you do for self care? And I didn't have an answer. And she's like, okay, what would you do in the fall semester that you really looked forward to or enjoyed? And I was like Dr Maslow, I was playing with my fantasy league and stuff. And she goes that that there, that's your self-care. And to this day it is absolutely my self-care. Like I know the shift that happens. I've now developed a better spring and summer self-care now that I know. But it was somebody being like, hey, what shifted between your fall and spring semester school in my mid 20s for me to be like, wait, that is what brings me self-care to the. I've changed flights to watch football games. I had football playing at my wedding I mean I joke with my sister who's getting married next October and I'm like that's a Saturday.
Speaker 1: 43:00
What time is that wedding on Saturday?
Speaker 2: 43:02
You know football beyond, so, like I, love it, but it's about finding what brings you joy, and that's really what it comes down to. I have other things that bring me joy, but I know my self-care peak is what. I can just sit and watch a couple of games, and again that could, for some people can be watching a show, that can be cooking, that can be spending time with people, and again, I could talk about self-care forever too. It's building it into your routine. You can't just do self-care when all of a sudden you're like, oh my God, I need self-care. You need to build that into your practice every single week, whatever that looks like.
Speaker 1: 43:34
Preventative maintenance.
Speaker 2: 43:36
Yes, preventative self-care, I love it. There's so, so many things that building a habit, but that's really what self-care is. It's what's replenishes you, what restores you and what brings you joy.
Speaker 1: 43:57
I need another R word instead of joy and happy, just so I can have you know the three R's to replenish and something Like rejuvenate. Almost yeah, I'll think on it. This makes me think about. There is a book called Play that is about research on the importance of play, especially as adults, and that's one of those things where they're like your form of play is what you enjoy. It's not saying you need to dance in your kitchen or go slide down a slide at a playground, like as we think of traditional methods of play. It is what is helping you be present in the moment and something you enjoy. That helps nourish and replenish you. Like. That's exactly what play is. One of the examples I use is like.
Speaker 1: 44:25
We tend to give adults who play video games a bad rap. Oh, you're wasting time, like you should be. Exactly, yes, wasting time. And it's just so interesting to me because the way that the whole book is like here are some ideas for play. Here's what the research says about play.
Speaker 1: 44:39
It is so important to our health and well-being. And so now, when you're like no, no, like this is also how we define self-care, I'm like even more so. It gives such a different perspective for people Another way to, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. When I've talked about self-care in the past and with clients, we talk about sometimes that self-care and maybe this falls more under like self-compassion too of holding ourselves accountable for taking care of ourselves and our beings, so we were like if it doesn't bring you joy, it's not self-care. But I like to think in terms of. I've had a number of conversations recently with moms and they tend to put all of their needs on the back burner. One of those things is scheduling your regular doctor visit, scheduling your regular dental visit, things that take care of you and your long-term health and well-being, and holding yourself accountable to taking care of you. Would you consider those things self-care or is that different?
Speaker 2: 45:35
Yeah, I, absolutely. I do to an extent, though right, like I'm not sure. Many people like to sit on the phone waiting for a receptionist to be like yes, we have an appointment for you. I think it's about like knowing that. I think what it is is that when you can take care of yourself, you can then engage in that self-care. It's a piece of the puzzle. Again, I can't speak for everyone. Personally, I don't think doctor appointments self care, but for some people it might be. That might be that moment where they get to talk about themselves. They get to be like, hey, this is what's going on. I feel good after I went and saw whatever provider.
Speaker 2: 45:59
I needed to see, and that can be you know self care, but also recognizing that could also just be for somebody a piece of that to be able to fully go and engage in whatever their self-care is.
Speaker 1: 46:08
For sure, and just think of that both and piece of. I love talking about self-compassion when it comes to the coaching I do with runners and people who strength train and building their schedules and time management. All of that is part of that self-compassion piece is recognizing, like, if you're super tired from the day are we having the conversation of, is the self-compassionate thing to skip the workout and go to bed early? Is a self-compassionate thing to say no? I have had this conversation with myself for three weeks and I have let myself just go to bed early, but what happens is I read a book for two hours. Instead, I am going to go give my, I'm going to set a timer for 20 minutes, and the self-compassionate thing is to hold myself accountable to get some in, because I know this helps me feel better, like to work towards these goals that I've set for myself or these things, and like it's such an interesting piece because I think that a lot of times, compassion for people is like oh, that just means it's a free for all. I'm off the hook.
Speaker 2: 47:01
It's a catch all it's the same way, right when people are like oh, self-care is selfish, it's not. It's actually you're doing yourself and others a disservice when you do not take care of yourself.
Speaker 1: 47:09
If you haven't learned how to take care of you, it's hard to take care of others, making sure that those needs are met, or learning what those needs are like for you. You're like, my needs are football and it's having that time for you for the things that you enjoy, and that's something so often that I, especially in this recent, just insane season, is recognizing. Have I done anything for me? I'm having, like, all these family things going, I've taken care of mom and I'm taking care of this and I'm taking care of all these other pieces. Well, have I done something for myself at all? Because that is where those feelings beginning, feelings of burnout, came from. Okay, like relating it back.
Speaker 2: 47:43
And just recognizing, like, in what life area can you instill self-care? Right? There's financial self-care, there's environmental self-care. There's so many different proponents and it goes back to the way I was talking about body image, about, like, identifying what's one thing that you can just start focusing on, start focusing on just one of those aspects. You can't do it all at one time, but the more that you can do with that one aspect say, it is for you financial self-care right, and you're taking care of yourself financially, whatever that looks like for you, debt, job savings, you know, whatever that looks like.
Speaker 2: 48:12
Okay, you've now been able to do that. You have the space and energy to now focus on the self-care that you want to do around your work. Okay, what about your job? Is it that you need to put more focus on self-care? Cause it's all tied together. Self-care is. It is time consuming, but that time is well spent. I think that's the thing is, people are like, oh, I don't have the time. Okay, you say you don't have the time, and what are you spending time on? That is not replenishing, not restoring you and that you're dreading.
Speaker 2: 48:39
And it could be because you're not just engaging in something to give yourself that energy to go do whatever those things are. It may not be that you hate that thing, it's just you don't have the space and energy to do it.
Speaker 1: 48:48
When you're like what are you doing? That's not replenishing, and I was like doom scrolling.
Speaker 2: 48:52
That's another thing. Right, the comparison piece that comes up when we're on social media. I have social media, I have no problem saying that, and social media can be such a deep hole If you are not in a place mentally and emotionally to be like wait, I'm confident in myself that the things that I'm seeing are not going to impact my next decision.
Speaker 1: 49:10
I mean that's absolutely worthwhile, like saying that in and of itself, because I think for me it's so interesting.
Speaker 1: 49:16
I love social media for the aspect that it is connected me to so many wonderful people through this podcast and interviews with clients, with other coaches. I have a handful of friends that I met directly through Instagram that are wonderful. But, like you said, it's the intention, like this, we're going to just tie this all right back around to the beginning of our conversation about the intention piece. Are you equipped enough to know that, yeah, your next decision isn't going to be predicated by what you see on social media and you're not going to be influenced by the things that you're scrolling on? How are you using social media? Because I think that I'll say from my experience as a podcast host and creating content, a lot of people have conversations around working on body image or bad body image days, and they'll tell you to curate your feed on social media and they'll tell you to watch your social media time, and I think it's really interesting because that's putting the onus on the social media and not on yourself and your response to those things.
Speaker 2: 50:11
I actually I created a self-assessment about social media usage and basically it's what platform do you use, how do you feel before you use it, how much time are you spending on it, what thoughts do you have on it? And then, like a reflection after and I actually made ones that are smaller, where you monitor that for a week and see how much it's really interesting when you start to really be again intentional about what's my usage Wait, do I actually want to be doing? This Goes back to like what is it that you want versus what you think you should be doing, or what, yeah, what you really think you should be doing versus what you want to do.
Speaker 1: 50:42
I love that you created a worksheet. You give yourself like qualitative and quantitative data. To make my nerdy heart so happy. I love it.
Speaker 1: 50:55
A while ago I did my own, let's say, self-experiment and I replaced where my Instagram app is on my phone with my Kindle app, and I love to read regardless. But I wanted to see how often I caught myself, because then it was like click, click Instagram and it half the time. It's mindless, right, and you want to know like how many times did I do that? So I realized I read an extra book a week in the same amount of time that I would have been scrolling, like the amount of times I grabbed it. Or you can on iPhones I don't know about Androids, but you can look at stats on how many times you clicked on an app, how many times you opened it. It was insane. I don't even want to admit how many times I opened the app in a day and just knowing that, that's how many times I picked up my phone and just think that's the other times you picked up your phone for that app.
Speaker 2: 51:33
Think about how many other times you probably picked up your phone for other things. Right, it's just wild how often we do that.
Speaker 1: 51:38
Okay, but there's awareness, ta-da. Now you've brought awareness to the thing and since then it has brought so much more intentionality to me of when I pick up my phone, what am I going to do. Why did you pick up your phone? Oh, you're on Instagram. Did you mean to get on Instagram? Do you need to scroll? And I never put my Instagram app back, by the way.
Speaker 2: 51:58
And then if someone was, like, well, did you do on there? You probably couldn't tell like content that you see or that what you saw, like maybe one or two things.
Speaker 1: 52:04
Maybe I posted or maybe I like made some stories or I don't know, but 119 was the average. And so once I pulled all that together and having that intentionality I haven't checked it in a while, but when I did this it got down to an average of like 15 times in a day, and even then, when you think about that, it's like 15 times that you've picked up your phone. Anyway, we said tangent.
Speaker 2: 52:24
Yeah, going back to self-care, I'll just say this self-care is giving the world a better version of you instead of what's left of you. Again, I don't think there is anything that is best or perfect, because that, again, is so absolute and that's a standard no one will ever meet. You can't, you cannot do that in human form. But what you can do is you can be better, and you can't be better unless you take care of yourself.
Speaker 1: 52:43
That is wonderful. I had a conversation earlier today about the art of becoming and talking about that kind of as a concept, and that's exactly it right. When we think about ourselves as becoming, about working on things, how can we be better versus perfect or perfecting something? I think that that is, if you're okay with it, a really great place to end on. Unless you had anything else to add on body image or self-care or any of our other side tangents, we went on.
Speaker 2: 53:09
I don't think so, but yeah, this has been such a fun conversation.
Speaker 1: 53:14
We obviously have 100 tangents. We could go on, but in interest of time I do have some fun small wrap up questions. Do you have any holiday traditions?
Speaker 2: 53:24
Every year I try to go to a corn maze and in the fall, winter, I try to see family. So I live on the East Coast, north East Coast, but they're down in Florida, so definitely see family. Nothing like really traditional, but I do try to go to a corn maze at least once a season.
Speaker 1: 53:39
That's awesome. Ok, if you had to pick one food to eat for the rest of your life, what would it be? Man, that is, that is hard, you can pick like a type of food, genre, genre, exactly. I was like you can pick cookies and just have it be general, or pizza.
Speaker 2: 53:54
I think like potatoes. You can do so much with potatoes. You can make soups with potatoes, you can have fries, you can have like potatoes for breakfast with like I don't know.
Speaker 1: 54:02
I feel like potatoes that was legit, the best answer I've ever heard, because year before for my birthday, my friends and I just sent back and forth a bunch of videos that we found on Instagram about throwing a potato birthday party, and it was like a mashed potato cake with French fries with 27 different forms of potatoes.
Speaker 2: 54:19
No, potatoes are literally I mean, this is gonna be a really weird like way to bring it back but there is no one individual like type of potato and you can do so much with it, in the same way that we are not individual and there's so many different things that we can be doing. That is literally why I like potatoes, because they're so versatile, and so are we.
Speaker 1: 54:36
You just brought it all back around. That was perfect. Okay, next question what is the number one book that you've recommended or given as a gift?
Speaker 2: 54:44
The Choice by Dr Edith Egger. I don't think that's how you say her last name, but she is a Holocaust survivor and she talks about her time in the Holocaust as a dancer and that's how she actually survived. Is that, basically, she was valued because she could perform for, unfortunately, the others, and so her story is absolutely beautiful. If anyone can ever pick up a copy, I can never recommend that book enough because she talks about taking something so devastating, so tragic, and turn it into something like she's like I can't just be a victim in this and she talks about victimization and like how that's so bad for our thinking. I'm like, okay, this woman who was in that situation could write a book and talk about that. I'm like, all right, I love it. I think it's an incredible book.
Speaker 1: 55:24
Thank you, and it's called the Choice. Second to last question how do you take your coffee or tea or morning beverage of choice?
Speaker 2: 55:30
It really depends on the season. I know this sounds like so weird. If it's like a holiday season, it is absolutely a white peppermint mocha. If it's the summer, it's just like a black espresso and then the rest of the time it's just iced coffee. But definitely it's just dependent on what's happening outdoors.
Speaker 1: 55:45
It's totally a seasonal thing, I agree. Well, I still haven't transitioned over to hot coffee yet, but I'm an iced coffee all through the summer person.
Speaker 2: 55:52
I mean, I'll have iced coffee at any time of the year. If anyone's like, here's an iced coffee, absolutely.
Speaker 1: 55:57
But OK, last question when can audiences find you and learn more?
Speaker 2: 56:00
Yeah, so they can check me out at my website, prowellnesspracticecom, or on our Instagram, prowellnesspracticewell. But yeah, those are kind of really the two places that were pretty active. And then you also have a podcast. Yes, I do, it's called Grit and to Worth, and if you got this far, then you know why that is called that.
Speaker 1: 56:19
Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you for your wealth of knowledge and shared experience. It means the world. Absolutely Thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 2: 56:26
This is such a great conversation.
Speaker 1: 56:28
All right, friends. Thank you so much for listening to another episode and we will catch you next Friday.