Episode 10: Stress Management and Body Image with Kerry McGinn, DPT
In our latest podcast episode, we sit down with Kerry McGinn, a doctor of physical therapy, a 500-hour yoga teacher, and a personal trainer, to explore the intricate relationship between stress, body image, and confidence. Our enlightening conversation navigates the complexities of how stress manifests physically and impacts our perceptions and interactions with our bodies.
Stress, often seen as a negative force, is a vital component of our well-being, pushing us forward and affecting our bodies. However, in today's fast-paced society, it's easy for our bodies to get stuck in the fight or flight mode. This state of chronic stress often leads to physical manifestations, which in turn affects how we view and communicate with our bodies. Kerry provides valuable insights into these complex conduits, highlighting how he uses biofeedback techniques to help his clients manage stress and chronic pain.
Our conversation takes an intriguing turn as we delve into the concept of control and its relation to stress and body image. Often, when external stressors overwhelm us, we turn to our bodies as a symbol of control, seeking to 'fix' something within our reach. This approach is further fueled by societal influences and media messages that shape our perceptions of our bodies. Recognizing this pattern is the first step towards reclaiming control over our reactions to stress and creating sustainable coping strategies.
We also delve into the concept of confidence and its connection with stress management. Confidence, we discover, is a skill that can be developed through repeated exposure to challenges and an awareness of our capabilities. Reducing resistance to intimidating tasks can also boost confidence, transforming our approach to stress management. The discussion brings to light the importance of providing ourselves with emotional and physical support, especially when facing formidable tasks.
As we wrap up our enlightening conversation, we equip our listeners with practical stress management tools to reconnect with their physical, mental, emotional, and energetic bodies. We underscore the importance of indulging in activities that bring joy, as these moments of happiness often provide relief from stress.
Our podcast episode with Kerry offers a thought-provoking exploration of stress, control, confidence, and so much more. Whether you're grappling with chronic stress, struggling with body image issues, or seeking ways to boost your confidence, this episode is sure to provide valuable insights and practical tools to help you navigate these complex issues. So, tune in, and let's start decoding the connection between stress, body image, and confidence together.
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Jess: Hello, friend, and welcome to Sturdy Girl, a podcast focused on strength, not size, where you'll hear conversations around healthy body image, cultivating confidence and being a resilient human in both body and mind. Sturdy Girl is a podcast where we shift the focus away from your appearance and on to living the big, rad life you deserve. Kerry, thanks so much for being on the podcast. I'm stoked you're here. Can you tell me a little bit about you, what you do, your journey and how?
Kerry: 0:33
you got there? Yes, well, first of all, thank you so much for having me so stoked to chat. All things stress, body image, and wherever else this takes us today, it'll take us another direction. I'm sure. I'm sure it always does in the best way possible. But by trade I'm a doctor of physical therapy, a 500-hour yoga teacher, a personal trainer and all sorts of other little certifications and continue ed. I am definitely one of those continuous life learners, and probably sometimes too much, because I just love all the things about health and the human body and I also will often say to people I am the product of my own experiences. I joke sometimes that a series of unfortunate events led me to practice and view the human body in the way that I do now, and while that sounds I don't know sad or upsetting, it's actually been a really beautiful journey that's gotten me here, and I don't think I'd be the practitioner or the yoga teacher or just the person I am today without all those experiences wrapping it up and leading me to the way I treat people in front of me today.
Jess: 1:39
I think that we all go through shit, right, and it's not pretty and it's probably sad, but it does. It shapes us into who we are today, the choices that we make to get ourselves to where we are today.
Kerry: 1:50
I think it's been like even just like in terms of stress, like my own journey with understanding stress. I work with a lot of my clients these days with pain and also how stress affects pain. So I work with a lot of chronic pain clients or just recurring pain, a lot of people with chronic illness or chronic pain and how stress affects that and then how that affects how we treat our body, how we look at our body, how we talk to our body, and that's also things that I've been through before so I can understand when my clients are coming into me and some of the things they're saying. I'm like no, I really do understand that because I've been there before. I've felt those feelings that you're feeling right now.
Jess: 2:27
You have such a well I want to say well rounded I don't know if that's the word I want just experience and education as far as like, yes, physical therapy. So, yeah, when people are coming to you in pain, you have the direction on how you want them to maybe move their bodies, whether that's something that's body weight or weighted or whatever. But you also have this training in yoga so you're able to further the movement in a way. That's more of a flow, if you will. Yeah, 100%. And then you also have stress management as well, because you're like, you know, maybe this pain you're having is as a result of all these other stressors, because I also be personally for a second. Any of the I'm gonna say, injuries with air quotes here, but any weird pains that have come up for me over the years end up being related to like, oh, you just started a new job and you bought a new house and you moved, and now your lower back is starting to act up. When you resumed powerlifting, yeah. So here's the thing let's adapt to the volume, let's find the manageable load Right. There's so many pieces that that stress kind of reflects. So I can't imagine how great those conversations you end up having clients. But I'm also wondering if someone comes to you for PT and then you end up having conversation about stress, are they like wait, no, I came to you because my shoulders messed up and you're like well they're connected.
Kerry: 3:40
Yep, you just read my mind. I was gonna say it's great to have these conversations and like the people oftentimes I am people's like last resort I'll say especially some more of my chronic illness, chronic pain folks. They're like I've tried everything, I don't know what else to do. Someone recommended you, so I'm in your hands. It can't get worse. And can you fix me? Yeah, exactly, and it's like a bit of a challenge. But they're also like I believe you and they're coming from a different perspective. But I do also, especially literally the story you just told. It was me last May. Like I just moved, just started some new position, so I had a low back spasm last May, so I literally been there. And then I have some other people who just, you know, know me from the community and know me as a yoga teacher, like, oh, I'd love to work with you, a physical therapist. So when I start asking them questions about like what are your stress levels? Like Are you sleeping? Like are you eating enough? And I'm not a nutritionist, but my concern is like are you getting enough calories in so that your body doesn't feel like it's in panic mode 24 seven?
Jess: 4:36
Absolutely Well. And those, those pieces of biofeedback right. Are you eating enough? Are you drinking enough? Are you sleeping enough? How's your stress management? How's your hunger levels, how's your digestion? All of those things are so important.
Kerry: 4:48
Right. And so we feel like but, but like it's just this one spot in my shoulder, like I promise we'll wrap it all up in a nice little bow in a moment. It's not going to be like a perfect bow, but it'll have some strategies in it, but we'll like bring it all together. So you're like, oh, I can understand how this stress and this kind of move is affecting how I feel in my physical body. And I'll be honest, some people understand it. Some people still are like, no, no, but I just want to focus on the shoulder and I get that. You kind of. I kind of have to meet everyone where they are in their journey, and sometimes it's going to be easier than others.
Jess: 5:21
For sure I do have a couple of very good friends who are also physical therapists and it is interesting the general understanding of physical therapy and what it does and why you go see someone for PT. And then there's a lot of the practitioners now that are like no, there's so much different. Ever an approach Like I'm not just going to fix your body. That's not how this works. I'm really fortunate for the PTs that I've been around because it's helped me to address so that when, like right now, I am actually going through a weird shoulder thing from low bar squatting and from building a deck and I'm like oh my gosh, I need to get a PT, they're going to fix me. And then, like my friend Taylor, who's a PT, is like Jessica, no, that's not how it works, which I know, but we want, we want that fix, we want to have that thing.
Kerry: 6:03
That's going to be the answer to make it better 100%, and it's definitely something I struggle with as a practitioner and I've definitely struggled with also on the flip side as a patient like I've gone through my own burnout journey and been like, well, just tell me the one thing that's going to fix this, cause I'm done oh, the doctors, appointments and whatnot. And also as a practitioner, it's easier to take that step back and to be like, okay, let's look at the bigger picture. And the way I often will help introduce this to people is patterns. Like I love a good journal and note taking, so that's probably where it comes from too. So, you know, let's just look at patterns Like how do you feel on a Monday versus a Friday? How do you feel after you know a 12 hour shift versus a six hour shift? When is your pain worse and when is it better? And a lot of times when we're in pain, it's such a for lack of a better word painful experience. It challenges this whole idea of how we think our body should be working and how we think our body should be. And then you know, we can talk, even get into that whole like having to change your exercise routine and what role that plays on people's mental health and how there's so many like nuances to this and, when it comes down to it is some people don't even realize. Oh, my pain actually feels better now than it did two hours ago, but it felt worse at the end of the day, like we're not always in tune with the ebbs and flows of it as much, and so it can just get very overwhelming and like, oh my gosh, just get rid of this, fix this, work some magic. It's wrong, this feels wrong. Make it stop. Exactly.
Jess: 7:28
Instead of like oh yeah.
Kerry: 7:29
Saturday I felt pretty good. I forgot Like I went to pizza with friends and then I went for a hike and then I went out to dinner and then I slept well and I had really no pain, versus if you have two 10 hour days in a row like, oh my goodness everything hurts.
Jess: 7:43
I'm laughing because that's literally even me with my shoulder. And when I'm like oh yeah, during the work week it gets really bad because I am retracting mouths with this arm, and then on the weekends it gets a little better, like, yeah, you have to follow those pieces of it. Okay, let's segue a little bit. I mean, you kind of touched on a little bit of you, what you do, a little bit about your journey, but I was curious to talk a little bit about potentially stress and its impacts on body image, on our own well-being. Yes, I love this.
Kerry: 8:15
I think my journey always like peppers in a little bit along the way because, like I said, I definitely learned through different stages of my journey. I learned and then I felt it, or I felt it, then I learned. So it's always interesting how it intermingles and I'm sure you know a few people feel that way out there. But when it comes to stress and body image, I think it's really important to understand the stress response in the body, then that kind of cascade of effects. And I'll say one thing that kind of blows people's mind is that stress in itself is not inherently a bad thing and in order to grow, to change heck, to build muscle, to get stronger, to learn, we need stress. Stress is what has pushed evolution along. It has what pushed our own personal growth and professional growth along and even our physical bodies. Like if you can't run I'm just using running as an example, even though I'm not a runner like if you can't run one mile, then you're not going to run 26 miles, and in order to run 26 miles you need to stress your body with the one mile, or running and exercise in itself is stress on the body too. But we see it as a bit. I think a lot of people see stress and exercise not as the same, when exercise has the same effect on our body as some stressors do and it's good, stress is pushing us forward, that sort of thing. So that idea of stress is not inherently bad. I feel like I always have to start with stress is not bad, it's part of life.
Jess: 9:37
Are you familiar with Steve Magnus at all? He's written a few books, but in one of them it's called Peak Performance. And their entire equation is stress plus rest equals growth. Yes, yep. And the comments listening are like oh my God, jessica, I've heard this a hundred times, but it's true, it's. I mean, if you stress the body and you rest, mm-hmm, equals growth. It's the same for life situations. It's how muscles grow. It's how we grow.
Kerry: 10:06
Exactly and I think that's important to know. Then you look at, okay, what is how stress really affect us. So stress, at its core, it is our body's response to a certain stimulus. So stress in itself is just a response to a stimulus. That stimulus can be a back squat. That stimulus can be an email from your boss, it can be a fight with your partner, it can be a hard hike, it can be so many different things. And when we get stressed, regardless of the stimulus, is a neurochemical Kind of cascade happens where our body enters fight, flight or freeze mode. So our body gets ready to either fight the stressor, run from the stressor, or freeze in more extreme situation. And once again, none of those Responses are bad. If you are trying to hype yourself up, I'm thinking back to I play college across like before a game. We'd want to hype ourselves up, get ready for it. So you want to get your heart rate up, you want to get the blood flowing, you want to increase your respiratory rate Because that's gonna help you perform. Same thing, like if you're giving a presentation in front of the room, like I give a lot of corporate presentation, I don't want to be falling asleep and like in getting ready for bed mode. I want to be ready to stand tall and project my voice and give my lecture. So stress and the response to stress is enabling us to do those things. And what happens in our modern society Is that we get stuck there. We get stuck in being constantly in fight or flight mode, so we never push over to the other edge, which is parasympathetic, rest and digest mode, which I feel like a lot of people are commonly know rest and digest and fight or flight. So we never move out of that fight or flight into rest and digest. And rest and digest mode is when our muscles heal, when our body fights back illness, when our brain makes more neural synapses. Like you said, stress press, rest equals growth and in order to grow you need both. You need both. And when we get stuck in the stress, that's when I really see that negative effect on body image, on self-confidence, on just how we feel as a human being in our body, mentally and physically.
Jess: 12:11
You said you see it more when people get stuck in that fighter, fighter flight, higher stressor. Yeah, absolutely, you're in a heightened emotional state.
Kerry: 12:21
Yep, you're more reactive, and that, in turn, it changes the way we experience our bodies, exactly and also, if we're in fighter flight for so long, it can increase inflammation in our body, decrease our bodies ability to digest food, decrease our organs abilities to do their work, because when we're in fighter flight mode all the blood is Taken from our organs, it goes to our brain and our muscles to get us out of that situation. So if our blood is always shunted to other areas, it's gonna shut down some necessary processes even you know. I think back to myself, and part of my burnout experience was twofold. I was in a physical therapy job where I was, you know, seeing 22 patients throughout, you know, an eight-hour day without a lunch break. So not only was I not eating, but I also had this weird guilt about going to the bathroom. So, like I wouldn't go to the bathroom, I would like hold everything in. Yeah, it was terrible. And then I got to this point where, you know for maybe TMI, but I was chronically constipated because I was just ignoring my body's signals throughout my work day, and then my body could not Literally get rid of the waste that I was producing because it was so, you know, muscles were tight, I was not allowing myself to rest and digest and I'm sorry, but if anyone out there's ever been constipated, you don't feel so great about how your body looks. It's just not a time when you're like oh, I'm feeling great when you're just Constipated it's just not.
Jess: 13:47
It's almost a distraction from everything else. For sure, with the body image piece and stress I was just thinking about, our emotions and a stressful time are really heightened. Mm-hmm, right, it changes how you perceive your body. Our body image is the lens with which we view our body. High stress times distort that, it amplifies, it can amplify what we see, because these are our perception. Body image isn't actually how we appear Really physically, it's how we perceive our appearance and, yeah, I wouldn't restress. There's that inflammatory response. But then there's also that like well, I'm stressed and I can't get this done, and these, all of these things are going on and it takes and distorts it enough that it's like a Funhouse mirror sometimes when you look in the mirror, when you're stressed and suddenly that body image is a lot harder to kind of stay at a Baseline that is, you know, healthier or more flexible. I don't know if you're familiar with body image flexibility at all. Okay, big fan, just from that. That piece where you're not talking body positivity, we're not talking body neutrality, we're talking body image flexibility and stress, from what I have seen have read, takes and makes that body image a little more rigid.
Kerry: 14:55
Well, there's so many pieces to that, but I think one thing that just came to mind when you're saying that is when you're stressed like that for so long, I personally see we're trying to control more than we're trying to control. And when you're talking about body image flexibility, you're not really controlling, you're kind of witnessing. And when you're so stressed that you're just trying to grasp on to anything that you can do to feel better, I see that in myself and in my clients you start to pick things apart because you think that you can control that instead of just witnessing how you feel and are experiencing your emotions and your physical sensation. And to also add to that is you said you know our emotional reactivity is higher, our physical sensations can also be higher and we kind of dissociate from where we actually are in the moment. Some people do. So add that all together and your ability to stay flexible and stay in that witness role kind of goes out the window.
Jess: 15:48
And there can also be the response to if you're kind of fixating and changing or controlling your body. That a lot of times Becomes a response to stress. Yeah, I have all of these stressful things going on in my life. What is something that I can control? Can I control my body, can I control what it looks like, what it does, and so then it can give a person the illusion that they're addressing this stressor or Addressing the situation and creating an answer or a solution, when it's actually just deflecting.
Kerry: 16:16
Yeah, no way. I see that more often when it's external stressors, when it's kind of out of someone's control you know, whether it be work related stressors or even just another family member that's say is sick, it's something that you can't fix. Then you look to okay, what can I fix? That fix? I should say an air quotes, because it's really you know, you're not really fix anything, you just can't get that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I know, just try to get control over it.
Jess: 16:42
That's the answer that your brain looks for.
Kerry: 16:45
Exactly like what can I fix? I can't make this person happier, I can't fix this at my job, so what's something within my control and often to your point? That goes back to, okay, people micromanaging what they're doing with their body and then how they're viewing their body, even though their body really isn't the stressor. It's just happening as a product of the stressor.
Jess: 17:07
Yeah, and it's one of those two that maybe it is turning back to your body as the the thing to control and then it takes away energy from Maybe addressing the actual situation. That is stressful. So you're like addressing a symptom if you will right, it's the emotional piece of it that then reflects on our body image and then ignoring the symptom, and so you're avoiding and you're like, okay, well, maybe I need to shove these emotions down and then, okay, now Maybe it's starting a new diet or a new exercise plan, or would you some kind of quick fix like Getting my hair done or doing new makeup or buying new clothes, or something like that. Almost as like a deflection from the actual situation, it's a very unsustainable way to, I'm gonna say, manage, air quotes, manage.
Kerry: 17:52
Yeah, no, 100%, and I think you know we can't put down or can't forget about the Roll, that media and not even just social media, but just messaging has played a role in all this. You know there's so many pieces to that too that it feels like okay when everything's out of control. What is in my control? And especially, I might you know, over generalization, I think for women it is even more so. Well, this isn't my control, because the media is telling me that this isn't my control, that this is the only thing that is in my control when I can't control anything else.
Jess: 18:23
I think another piece of this too that I feel like I come back to when it comes to confidence and body image, a lot is awareness, mm-hmm, because if we can develop self-awareness around Situations, and it takes practice like I just throw it out there, like, oh yeah, develop awareness. But for me personally I Just started a new job. Even though this job is wonderful, it is still stressful. Right, it was stressful leaving the previous position to start the new position. It was a lot. It is stressful. I have developed enough awareness around my own response to stress to know, okay, when I am stressed, I have a tendency to pick apart the tiny things about myself or my body for absolutely no reason, because it gives me a sense of control, because I can't control how stressed I feel about settling into this new job Yep, yep, so that's what I do and then realizing like, oh, you're doing it again. Or it's a pattern of awareness Totally and the tendency towards and I'll speak for myself personally, I can't generalize, but the tendency towards while I'm feeling this stress, maybe I need to switch up what I'm doing for my physical activity, yep, and now it's not the you know program hopping and that kind of thing. I'm a power lifter and I will forever power lift as long as my body allows. I freaking love it and I also have on and off seasons of running, like those are still things. But my brain will be like do we need to go into hypertrophy phase and maybe add in some more running? Maybe the answer to your stress right now is to go for a really long run, even though you've only been running three to four miles at a time.
Kerry: 19:53
Cause you're looking for something to control, and it's even farther than control. It's. You're looking for something to almost feel, something other than the stress, absolutely.
Jess: 20:03
But I guess, kind of circling back to my point, is like that stress brings so much more attention on your body. Yes, cause we live this entire experience in our bodies and so when we're stressed, you're like, well, what's going on in my body? And there's a difference between, like the awareness piece of oh, I'm more stressed, so I'm noticing like my digestion has changed. I'm more stressed, I'm noticing that crap, it's taking me a lot longer to fall asleep. Those things, the awareness piece of then, okay, how can I minimize this stress, how can I handle it? Versus turning the attention towards our bodies and you're like, oh, my God, what's wrong with me? You, all of these other things to like change and fix, it's the mindset on how you go about those actions.
Kerry: 20:42
And I think often and you alluded to it earlier some of that comes around when we're not really allowing ourselves to feel the feelings associated with stress, because it's challenging to feel sad or angry or all those emotions that can come with it. And this is maybe not like the best example, but you know, say you know your example. You're starting a new job, it's stressful and you're kind of I've experienced in the past like, oh, I'm annoyed at myself, that this is stressful and that adds more stress to my plate. I really, truly don't want to feel annoyed at myself because that's an uncomfortable feeling to feel. So let me just be annoyed at little things like oh, this pants feels too tighter. Oh, I feel like a little this. You start sitting in the mirror and picking up out your body because you really don't want to sit with the emotion of being annoyed at yourself, which ultimately goes back to you don't want to sit with the fact that this is a new experience. Talking from personal experience. This is a new experience and it's a little scary and daunting while also being exciting. And that's really complicated for ourselves and our minds to be like. Oh it's exciting, oh my gosh, this is terrifying. It's too much that we don't want to really accept just yet.
Jess: 21:49
How hard is it for us as humans to acknowledge our emotions and sit with them? That's something that I have loved reading about, like acceptance and commitment therapy, and they talk a lot about being able to acknowledge thoughts as they come up and not attach to them and let them go, but it's a lot about acknowledgement and awareness of present situation without judgment. I mean, I think we talk a lot of non judgment when you talk like Buddhist principles, right, and like yoga tradition, and I love that, but being able to acknowledge and sit with those. I'm annoyed at myself because, yes, I completely resonate with that, because, say, I'm part of this new job. Situation is I'm getting up at five in the morning and a decade ago, when I was in the thick of back to back marathon training, I was up at five every day to go run. But there's a difference between getting up and doing something you love and that you're like training for this goal it's fun and getting up for work and that five a and wake up has been a brutal and I get so annoyed with myself because my brain is like at 3% capacity at five in the morning to get ready and I have to set stuff out the night before and I have to make sure that everything is like okay, you need to take this paperwork in. Okay, put your keys on top of it on the counter so that before you leave, you take it with you. And just that acknowledgement of yeah, I've been annoyed at myself because I'm like you are not functioning where you should be right now and then you have to be like okay, but I'm also like stressed, I'm getting to use to new sleep schedule. I'm getting used to like you're trying to acknowledge those pieces of this is a stressful season and this will go away.
Kerry: 23:19
I love that. I say that often, like this is a season. I work with a lot of people who there's a lot of body image wrapped up in that, because there's that added layer of well, now, my body is not doing what I ask of it. So then the body image is so rooted in, while I'm broken and picking apart themselves for not only how they look, but how they can or cannot function. And there's this I don't know exactly what I want, how I want to say it, but this judgment, always there's so much judgment around it and that can also play such a negative role. There's judgment not only about the body image, but there's judgment about how you're feeling, which then puts more pressure on the body image piece and at the end of the day, then your brain is kind of cognitively overloaded. Sometimes it's just like where am I? What am I doing?
Jess: 24:08
Yeah, absolutely. Any thoughts on stress impacting self confidence at all? Yeah, you know, I think that's it's so intertwined. But I just curious if you had any like separate thoughts there.
Kerry: 24:20
No, that's a really great question because I think it's another interesting thing where some stress and rising to the challenge of stress can increase our self confidence. Right, like, say, you know, example, powerlifting like that's stressful, like it's placing a stress on the body, but then you like complete a powerlifting, like well, I was able to complete that task and let's take it out of the body performance realm, even because let's talk about this new job of yours, you know, showing up for yourself and keeping promises to yourself, even if that's just like I am going to wake up at 5am and get my butt to work every day this week and doing that successfully with all your things in tow, all the paperwork, all the lunch, rising to that challenge, I mean like, wow, look, I just did that week, I completed it, great work. That increases your self confidence. So, on one hand, stress can also be a useful way to increase self confidence, but then you tip over that tipping point where it's no longer helping you increase and it's just like I'm the worst, I can't get anything done, I'm awful, I look awful, and the negative thought spiral just takes you to zero self confidence and it's just this kind of like teeter, teeter, totter, of like finding that right balance where, like I'm rising to the challenges, I can handle this without going off the deep end of a negative thought spiral.
Jess: 25:35
Exactly. I'm just nodding my head over here Because I'm like, yes, all of these things, because confidence I love. Mel Robbins defines confidence as the willingness to try. Because confidence is a skill. Yeah, for sure. It's that willingness to try and try again, and try again, and try again, and that's how confidence is built. And so when you're talking about doing the thing and being like, wow, I'm proud of myself, I did this uncomfortable thing, I did this thing, that may have been the just manageable challenge and you repeat that over and over and it builds that confidence skill.
Kerry: 26:06
Yep, the willingness is there when you have evidence to show that you're capable of it. You need the evidence to be willing to try sometimes.
Jess: 26:15
And that in turn decreases the resistance to doing the thing. Yep, 100%. Yeah, I don't know that I will ever not have resistance to 5am.
Kerry: 26:24
Yeah that's fair.
Jess: 26:24
I don't think I will either, but like there's decreasing resistance in the, but I don't know that there's much confidence in myself for getting up at 5am every day. I had a friend tell me who's like oh my gosh, it's really, it's not too bad at all to get up at 5. It's the first couple of weeks that are the hardest and then you just keep getting up at 5am every day and it gets easier. And I was like nobody getting up at 5am on a Saturday.
Kerry: 26:47
Yeah, exactly, You're like not, not for me, Not for me, no, no, absolutely not, I think it's. I think to your point there, because I've definitely I've had early wake up calls for a large portion of my career and I noticed I still didn't like getting up at 5am but I was getting more confident that I would actually do it and not press news five times.
Jess: 27:09
You actually wake up to your alarm. Okay, okay, yes.
Kerry: 27:12
I was like I was just starting to 5am job. I was like snooze, snooze, snooze and then you wake up freaking out, running out the door, exactly Okay.
Jess: 27:21
I'm not going to lie and I don't know this actually has any applicable context beyond just my own experience. But the only way my first week at this new job that I got out of bed on time was. I was like if you get out of bed on time and you get out the door on time, you have time to stop at Starbucks and get coffee.
Kerry: 27:36
Yes, yes, I bribed myself.
Jess: 27:40
I was like, okay, how, how are you doing? I really just want cold brew with some salted caramel, cold foam on top. Yes, okay, okay, I'll get up then.
Kerry: 27:51
One of my mentors says something like I just work for the little treats that I give myself throughout the day. I was like I feel that so hard?
Jess: 27:57
Emotional support coffee is a real thing it is.
Kerry: 28:03
I love the idea of little treats. I'm like oh good, I answered my emails, little treats.
Jess: 28:06
Yeah, we're basically all children. Yeah, exactly, I love to hike and she has a good friend with a couple of kids and she always takes candy so that if they start getting a little bored or a little grouchy or whatever, she pulls out candy. Here's some gummy candy. I love that. Keeps them going. And then she's telling me this and I'm reaching into my pack for, like sour patch kids. I'm like, me too, I love it. I'm like why do you think like the trail, whether it's hiking or trail running, I mean, I always have gummy candy. It's brilliant, it's like your little power ups.
Kerry: 28:37
No, I love that. It's really and honestly to take that background to like stress management really is. That's what I always say. It's those little things that really help, like little small tools and tips and you know we're joking about coffee and candy but even just like little ways to show up for yourself and sometimes that is a coffee or a candy. Other times it's deeper and it's more elaborate. But stress management really comes back to those little things that you can do and in my opinion and this might not be the most science backed opinion, but I've seen it over and over again it's showing up for yourself in a way that feels caring in the moment.
Jess: 29:17
We talk a lot about nourishing ourselves. Yes, yeah, and whether that means that you are eating nutrient dense foods or that means you were nourishing your mind with a book that you wanted to read, right, but those things are like taking care of you.
Kerry: 29:30
I actually used to run a group coaching program called nourish your nervous system. You know, there's so many ways that people can manage stress out there and there's so many different tools and techniques and schools of thought, and what I've really found over the years is it's not always exactly about the what, the what, but about finding what works for you and that's going to be different for every single person Something that feels nourishing to me like for me, getting out into the woods and going on a hike is very nourishing. For me Some people it's not that's a task, that's a chore, that's an exercise only, but that fills me back up in a way that other things don't. And to your point, like sometimes that's going to be your favorite, like oh my gosh. I'm thinking like my favorite comfort food is buffalo chicken pizza and like sometimes I just need a buffalo chicken pizza. And then other times I'm like, okay, I have a really like next week I'm doing a certification and I have a really full week next week. I know that if I at least have some nourishing nutrients food in the morning to fuel myself, that's going to feel really nourishing so that I feel better capable to handle whatever is thrown my way that day and so maybe I meal prop in advance and that's going to work for next week, but that might not work for the week after that. And it's finding what works for you when and having those tools, because you then can really feel that ricochet effect on your mental, your emotional health and how you see yourself in this world.
Jess: 30:52
And as you start to build awareness around your response to stress and stressful situations, you can anticipate how to take care of yourself. Because a lot of this too, as we're talking about all these stressful situations, a lot of it doesn't have to do with the actual situation. Yes, it's the emotions that we have in our reactions to the situation, the stress response, and then how we take care of ourselves in that. So these tips as far as ways to nourish your body, ways to maybe prepare for that stressful week ahead. So for me, with my 5 am wakeups and knowing that the brain isn't working right that early, so then it's. The coffee maker is already set and ready. If I'm not going to go to Starbucks, I have oatmeal already out next to the bowl. And I mean I wear black scrubs every day, so it's not like I have to pick out my outfit. That doesn't take much brainpower, right, but you minimize and you plan that piece, or it's knowing like you know what. I prepped all of my lunches in a week. I eat the same thing for breakfast and lunch, all during the work week. We've grocery shops so that by the time I get home from work I don't have to ask what do you want for dinner? It's hey. Do we want burgers tonight, or do we want chicken?
Kerry: 32:02
Right when you do all those things like how does that feel in your physical and mental body Versus? You didn't do it on any of those things.
Jess: 32:09
Meal prep while I'm doing it is not my favorite thing, right. I get that, so in the moment it's kind of like meh, this is what I have to do. But the rest of it, just knowing like I'm setting myself up for having a smoother day, so that I already know that this is stressful, but this is how I'm gonna get through it.
Kerry: 32:26
Yeah, exactly, you're providing yourself with those skills or those coping strategies beforehand.
Jess: 32:32
Or just knowing like the work schedule is super busy right now that the office that I'm at we are finishing up a remodel, so we've been in a temp office which is, you know, so much fun, but it's made it so like my breaks are a little bit shorter. And I don't say that like, oh, they don't give me a lunch break, they do, I just choose to use my time to finish chart notes prep for the rest of the day, get things cleaned up, to move back into the office. So I brought more snacks yeah, love that Versus a full meal. So it's an easy. I chopped up an apple. I had a protein bar. I ate some yogurt like those pieces instead of like a set down full meal.
Kerry: 33:06
And that goes back to your plan on self-awareness. You were able to make those choices because you were aware of what your needs are and when you were just talking that, that kind of reminded me of some of my experiences with like the opposite of that, when I haven't developed that Well, the opposite and also the same. Like I know, when I'm stressed and in that chronic stress state and I'm not taking care of myself, I know one of my first kind of reactions is like having a lot of really challenging feelings around sensations in my body. So this is like a really silly one. Like my sensory processing is a little bit more challenged when I'm in that high stress mode, so things like wearing too tight of pants or wearing the wrong bra or too many layers. I know that I'm more sensitive to those things when I'm in high stress mode. And I also know when I'm more sensitive to those things is when I tend to look in the mirror and then pick apart my body image because I'm feeling, you know my pants are too tight, so that must mean that I'm fat or my bra doesn't fit, so that must mean this, and I start to tell myself these stories about what's going on when really the problem isn't my body or even the clothes, it's the original stress. So I don't always have the self-awareness to prevent it. But I've developed over the years this self-awareness of sitting with this uncomfortable sensation in my body and not blaming myself for feeling this way. Witnessing it and being like this really has nothing to do with how you look or how you think you look, and a lot to do with You're in a really stressful experience. So your brain's just trying to place blame on something else, Like it's not about those genes you wore those genes two nights ago it's about how you're feeling and you know there's so many different layers to that too. And sometimes that looks like oh, maybe that means like I really don't want to go out tonight, Like I kind of need a night in to myself. Or maybe it's like okay, I know that I've kind of hit my upper limit of stress and I can feel it in my physical body and I can feel how it's affecting my body image and my confidence and my self-talk. So we need to put in some tools and strategies to help moving forward.
Jess: 35:17
I love that this has all just come back to awareness of learning that, because it takes a lot of trial and error and it takes a lot of, like you said, you can't catch yourself necessarily before that Maybe negative thought spiral starts, but you catch yourself in it and you're like, oh, yeah, no, you're stressed. Okay, let's acknowledge these feelings because they're there and they're valid, but I don't have to identify with them because I understand where they're coming from.
Kerry: 35:41
Right, and I think that goes back to what you said about body image flexibility. It's this acknowledgement of how you're feeling, too, and how that's playing a role as well, and how you're seeing yourself and even how you're feeling in yourself, how you're feeling physically, but also mentally and emotionally.
Jess: 35:58
Absolutely so. Any other tips for managing stress or maybe managing body image during high stress times?
Kerry: 36:05
Yeah, so let's dive into that a little bit. I think to your point and to what it keeps coming back around to is developing some sort of self-awareness practice. So whether that's journaling or even you know some people aren't journaling, so that's totally fine. When I work with, some of my clients say, let's just do a daily check-in every day, and that doesn't even need to be a written thing, that can be a. Let me just sit for 30 seconds or stand or even like sometimes I do it when I'm laying in bed at first and just be like how am I feeling physically? Am I tired? Am I muscels sore? How do I feel? How am I feeling emotionally and how am I feeling energy-wise? And just noticing, without a label of like, oh, I'm feeling this way, so it's gonna be a bad day or whatever. It is, just noticing this is how I'm feeling, because when you know how you're feeling, then you know, when you might be feeling a little off, that you might need to put in some of these other tools. So that's kind of the first layer. If you don't have the awareness, it's really hard to implement stress management tools.
Jess: 37:00
But do you know how few people actually take the time to check in with themselves? Because most people don't you go through your entire lived experience in this body and to say, okay, how do you feel? Because that's I mean. You talked about being a big fan of journaling. I am too. I love it, and a lot of times my journaling tends to be just brain dump, thought, download, whatever you wanna call it. Yeah, I love it, and then I can go to like structured. But a lot of people love, if they're gonna journal, they want journal prompts, and that is the very first one for me is how are you feeling? How are you really? Yeah, check in with yourself, because sometimes we just push ourselves to keep going and you're like there's a reason that your body is saying it's tired Right.
Kerry: 37:41
I love to do talk about real tangible tool is called a five body check in. I learned this from Dr Ariel Schwartz, who does a lot of work with the polyvagal theory and yoga. She also does a lot of work with like complex PTSD and all that but her five body check in. You say, how is my breath feeling? Is it shallow, Is it deep, Is it fast, Is it slow? How's my physical body feeling? So like muscles, joints, bones, like just kind of moving things around and seeing what's up? How are my emotions? What emotions?
Jess: 38:08
am I feeling?
Kerry: 38:08
right now. How's my energy feeling? And, depending on who you are like, sometimes I take that as like am I fatigued, am I excited? Or how am I feeling energetically in terms of like, am I feeling in alignment? Am I feeling on the right path? More of like that chakra energetics as well. The vibe, the cue line. Yeah, exactly, I just wanna make sure you've got them all breathing body, physical body, oh, and then mental body, cause sometimes emotional and mental body can be very different. Like you can be feeling a really strong emotion and then notice that your mental body is, your mind, is really moving quickly. Or you can notice, oh, I'm feeling really happy, but my mind is moving a little slower. And just checking in with those five mental, physical, emotional, breathing and energy body, and that's a really great place to start and just noticing patterns.
Jess: 38:55
That is almost the embodiment of everything that we've talked about.
Kerry: 38:58
Yeah, yeah.
Jess: 38:59
I like that tool. I mean one kind of stress management tool that I've used is that like body scan. So when you're talking about just that checking with your physical being, you know you start with the top of your head and you go down just incrementally and I think of it in muscle groups, but we'll think of it as like you can go by body part and just check in of like, is that muscle relaxed? Is that muscle relaxed? And I know some people do that for helping to sleep as well Going through and making sure each muscle is relaxed, cause a lot of times our jaw is clenched, our shoulders are in our ears, my toes a lot of times are like curled underneath each other and you're like, okay, I'm just going to relax all of this.
Kerry: 39:33
Totally, and a lot of people, to your point, don't realize what their physical body is doing when they're not consciously tuning into it.
Jess: 39:41
Or especially to during stressful times, because our bodies take on so much of that stress. I mean, I work in dentistry, my full-time job is as a hygienist and I can't tell you the beginning of the pandemic, the number of people that came in and they were like my job is wrecked. Yeah, what is going on and we're like that is a physical symptom of your stress.
Kerry: 40:01
Yeah, I feel like if you haven't experienced that sometimes it takes an extreme experience like oh my gosh, what is going on? To really recognize that. So it can be hard, your jaw-locking clothes yeah exactly and it's like, oh my gosh, I have to do something. But you know, ideally we won't all get to that space. So maybe starting a practice like a body scan or a five-body check-in you don't have to get to that space before you notice that the stress is affecting you. And I want to take it back to some other tangible tools because, to your point, I think that can be really helpful. One really overlooked one that's been impactful for me is finding joy, finding activities or places or people that just spark joy in my life, and adding more of that. And one of the people I've studied with and I can't remember who it is right now will often say that stress management isn't always about taking something out, it's about adding things in that give back to you. So for me, like a powerful thing has been adding in more joy and that looks like maybe I'm watching the sunset. And actually a big thing this year has been reading fiction books, Like I got into. I love reading, I love reading and I could read nonfiction books when we stop recording. We need to chat because I say I love reading as well but you know, like adding giving myself the permission to read really some of my fun column guilty pleasure books that you know might not be furthering my education in any means, but I just get great joy in diving into the story. That has done more for my stress management than I can even tell you right here right now. I freaking love reading fantasy.
Jess: 41:31
Yes, me too, I read fiction and nonfiction alike, because I love reading in general. But the bringing joy piece is something that I come back to when I have conversations with clients who are struggling, and maybe they're struggling with stress, maybe they're struggling with their workouts, maybe they're struggling in general and I asked them when's the last time that you did something that you felt joy? When is the last time that you did something that you kind of lost yourself in and found that I don't know if you want to call it flow state or whatever you just forget that you're doing something for the sake of doing it, for the sake of enjoyment. You're not practicing French because you want to learn the French language. You're not reading this book because you're trying to learn about astrophysics. You are doing it simply for the sake of enjoyment. I'm pretty sure I'm actually like an 85 year old inside, because the patients at work that I connect the most with are in their 70s and 80s and we're like, oh my God, I did this really great thousand piece Ravensburger puzzle last week and it brought me so much joy. You know those things. Or we read the same books, or like I grew up crocheting and knitting and all of that, and I'm like, yeah, I'm a baby grandma, it's fine, I love it.
Kerry: 42:34
When you were just talking about all those things and bringing joy, I actually felt this deep sense of excitement, for I'm a day off this weekend and I'm like oh my gosh. I just can't wait to get lost in like crafts and books and walking outdoors, and it really is just sparking so much joy. And you know I'm not kidding when I say I feel a sense of warmth and calm that washes over me Just knowing that I have the space for that. It makes me so much happier and more confident in who I am when I give myself that time to find joy.
Jess: 43:05
For me, it's hard to do yes, 100%, because our society is so focused on constant productivity, on constant doing instead of being.
Kerry: 43:19
Yep, it's an unlearning. You have to unlearn it. I'm still unlearning it. You know, like I'm saying, I have a day off on Sunday and I'm sure I still have a to-do list that I'm gonna have to, like, stick it high.
Jess: 43:27
I was gonna say you have a sticky note somewhere that you're like this isn't a priority right now. This self-care piece is more important. I get it. Actually. My nonfiction current book is called Laziness Does Not Exist and it is challenging so much of what I think motivates me and why I continue to do the things and why I struggle with sitting down and being quote, unquote, unproductive.
Kerry: 43:49
Right, oh my gosh, that could be a whole nother podcast. I gotta talk about that for like three hours, I think. Because I'm in the process of unlearning all of that myself and you know, even with all my knowledge on stress management and I think that's another takeaway instead of people like this isn't a perfect process. Even though I have all this knowledge on physical tools on how to manage stress, and body-based tools and breathwork and meditation and the mindset, like I have all the information in the world I really do have, and I have access to it by the internet as well I'm still unlearning. That piece of you don't always need to be productive and that process in itself is a I don't say it's a stress management tool, but it's a part of the process of building awareness, and building awareness around how you handle stress, how you operate in daily life, then therefore, how it affects yourself, confidence and body image.
Jess: 44:41
It's all interconnected. You just brought that full circle.
Kerry: 44:44
Happy to.
Jess: 44:45
I love that.
Kerry: 44:45
Okay, it's like I think about a lot.
Jess: 44:48
I think that that is a really good place to wrap up body image, self-confidence and stress. But I wanna talk about you for a minute. I have a few rapid fire questions before we wrap up, let's do it. Okay, this is a very important question to me. What is your favorite kind of cookie?
Kerry: 45:02
Ooh, this is a tough one. So I have chocolate chip girl through and through. But what am I aunt's used to making since sound bizarre? These cream cheese spritzers, yeah, surprisingly fantastic, and I remind me of Christmas because that's when I always ate them. Okay, explain these cookies. There's like actual cream cheese in it and which you would be like ew, gross. But there's also like, obviously, sugar and all that good stuff. But there's these just little fluffy balls of goodness. But she always put sprinkles on top. And are they soft? Are they chewy? Are they crispy? Not crispy, a little soft, okay, and not chewy per se. Like, not overly fluffy, like fluffy and soft, with a slight hard edge to them.
Jess: 45:49
Okay, I'm gonna need to explore this. This is that.
Kerry: 45:51
I'll send you the recipe.
Jess: 45:52
Okay, and this applies to our conversation. My next question for you what is one activity that brings you joy and takes your attention away from your body?
Kerry: 46:01
I think for me that's ever changing depending on the season of life that I'm in Okay, Current season, Anything outdoors. I live in New England and we just had our first snow, but the fall colors this year have been like absolutely magical. So anytime I could just whether it be walking or hiking or standing out, probably walking or hiking outdoors I just feel so much joy in the ability to be outdoors or as an experience at Me too.
Jess: 46:27
I love that. What is the number one book that you've recommended or given as a gift?
Kerry: 46:33
Oh, this is tough. I've read almost 50 books this year, which is like my crowning achievement for the year. Forget about everything else I do.
Jess: 46:41
Are you on Goodreads? I am Okay, we're connecting.
Kerry: 46:45
Connecting. So I'll just I'll give one fiction book and one nonfiction book. A fiction book that I loved this year oh, there's even too many of that, but I'll say the first one, the House of Salt and Sorrow by Erin Craig. It's like kind of a fantasy retailing of a folklore and it just I could read it again. It was so, so good. And then nonfiction, one that I read a couple of years ago that I actually was surprised. I loved it so much, but it explained the nervous system and some of our reactions to it in such a great way is called Call of the Wild by Kimberly Ann Johnson how we heal trauma, awaken our power and use it for good. And it was a great book in general but also as a practitioner. It broke down some of the stress and nervous system things that I talk about with my clients in a really grounded, science-based way, without weighing people down with fancy words and complicated explanations.
Jess: 47:46
Lamin's terms yeah, and it did talk a lot about.
Kerry: 47:50
you know sexuality and vitality and that as well, but once again in a really grounded way that I think, whether you're 30 or 70, you could take something away from that book.
Jess: 48:01
That's fantastic. Okay, last question how do you take your coffee or tea or morning beverage of choice?
Kerry: 48:08
I go through seasons with coffee as well. I'm currently in my coffee season. I definitely tend to drink coffee more once it gets cold out, and I am totally like a seasonal coffee gal. This morning, I treated myself to a Starbucks as well, and I got something ridiculous like sugar cookie almond milk latte.
Jess: 48:26
And it was just so good, oh so their holiday stuff is out oh yeah, holiday stuff is out.
Kerry: 48:31
My boyfriend was like is that Christmas coffee?
Jess: 48:33
I was like it is and it brings me joy. Thank you, I was like I'm all into it.
Kerry: 48:37
He's like great. Great for you, babe. Enjoy.
Jess: 48:40
I love that so good. Kerry, thank you so much for being on. This has been such a rad conversation. I feel like we could definitely have a part two and talk all things laziness and productivity. I would love to pick your mind on yoga and your entire yoga journey, but I'm proud of us for keeping this decently focused. Thank you for having me. It's been wonderful. If you enjoyed this podcast episode, please feel free to follow, subscribe, like whatever the heck you do with podcasts. As always, stay sturdy, friends, and we'll talk to you next week.